[GeneV]

It is an interesting, and I'm sure, often used strategy, but not entirely fantasy.
ALL religions, including atheism, have their fanatics . The only atheists I have a problem with are the fanatics that will tell a believer that he or she is an idiot for believing.
For the record, I don't think believing, or not believing, in God has anything to do a person's intellect, enlightenment, or anything else. Beliefs are beliefs, period. That makes them, by definition, neither right nor wrong.

I would disagree that atheism is truly a religion, but otherwise agree with that post. There is a degree of unknowability surrounding the existence of God that makes the fervent belief and active attempts at conversion by some "fanatic" atheists resemble religious faith.

[Nesster]

... there is a fairly well known psychology going on with some of the perceptions of hostility. This doesn't apply to everyone in a given group, but those to whom it does often tend to be more vocal than average...

1) those who rebel against a church or religion often carry a grudge against that which they think they have succeeded in escaping. Thus a lot of vehemence against the prior religion; this is not the same as enthusiasm for whatever the new thing is.

2) those who need to belong to a group and form rigid adherence to the group norms will tend to project their own *natural* non-conformist impulses onto others - thus vehemence against those 'against' the group. This is a form of ego defense, as is the one above.

3) those who see gain - financial, esteem, power, influence, sex - in a situation may end up espousing a one vs. many thought... at an extreme, cult leaders, but at lesser extremes, polarization and catastrophisizing work to sell books, TV, or political parties... and religions or non-religions too. For some this is conscious, for others, unconscious.

I'm not saying anyone here is in these categories, but we all have some of this going on, being humans and all.

[Parallax]

I think belief in God that leads to out-of-hand rejection of certain scientific/logical conclusions ....................

Great point. Belief in, or disbelief of, anything to the extent that you are unable to even entertain other possibilities can severely limiting, both intellectually and spiritually.

[deadwolfbones]

Great point. Belief in, or disbelief of, anything to the extent that you are unable to even entertain other possibilities can severely limiting, both intellectually and spiritually.

Yup.

10char

[Ira]

1) those who rebel against a church or religion often carry a grudge against that which they think they have succeeded in escaping. Thus a lot of vehemence against the prior religion; this is not the same as enthusiasm for whatever the new thing is.

This is an interesting point to dissect a little.

And this is kind of true regarding my history and personal makeup:

I was forced to go to Hebrew school every day for an hour and a half after a full day of REGULAR school--from the age of 6 until my Bar Mitzvah at 13--and as we all know, what 6-year-old kid would prefer watching Bozo and Speed Racer compared to being taught Hebrew by a smelly old Rabbi?

And while not really devout, why did my parents not believe that Rabbi Fisher did indeed steal the money I gave him to buy me a new Tallis, and instead, they accused me of blowing it on hookers and jawbreakers? (True story, except for the hookers.)

Now, you used the word "rebel" to describe my anathema to the Jewish faith (also based on its customs and rituals that I found/find ridiculous), but is this really rebellion? Aren't my actions, thoughts and negative attitude based on something else?

Like based on EDUCATION!? (My experiences, and there are others than those relayed here.)

In other words, we can't say that when people leave the Church that they're "rebelling," because that infers a military structure, discipline and order. Plus, I wasn't really rebelling:

I just started thinking.

I also find no enthusiasm in atheism. That's a believer's emotion.

---------- Post added 08-13-10 at 08:56 AM ----------

I guess the Polytheists/Henotheists shoot Nikon.

[GeneV]

I also find no enthusiasm in atheism. That's a believer's emotion.

I think that is true of most atheists I've met, but not all.

[lesmore49]

As said before I believe in God, but not organized religion.

I find many organized religions tend to be very insistent that their brand is best...that the only way you can get to heaven is by following their interpretation of the Bible.

I think organized religion has been a great cause of discord in this world of ours.

I also am concerned that in many cases there is an insistence from whoever the minister/priest/holy man from any particular institution..that his way is the only way.

I think one's relationship with God...is just that...a personal relationship...without the need of an organized religion, or any particular organized religion's, main representative or local representative (minister/priest/holy man) to dictate what that relationship should, or shouldn't be.

I believe as long as I'm capable of independent thought, the need for someone to dictate what I do or how I need to think in life is unnecessary and unwelcome.

Don't get me started on the importance of separating church (or any other religion) from state.

My relationship with God is a personal one.

[Nesster]

Ira, I hear ya... I was making a point about a different sort of 'conversion', in any direction, and how similar that can be to, say, grownups still bitching about their parents. Quite a few new agey types spend a lot of energy putting down the religion they grew up with... and isn't Paul the most famous convert to Christianity? But I wasn't saying that everyone is like that.

Lesmore - I hear ya too... there are some benefits to organized religion - they function as a transport of old literature (when they don't burn it) and traditions that can be 'read' in needed ways.

[magkelly]

My personal beliefs in terms of my own faith are just that, personal. I seldom if ever discuss that facet of my life with anyone. I don't mind when people of faith respond to questions when asked, but I am actively opposed to evangelism as it's practiced by mainstream religions for the most part. I think it's incredibly inappropriate and even downright rude to see people preach on street corners telling all who pass by how to live their lives.

I believe that the best example you can give someone about who you are and what you believe just isn't something you can quote from a holy book. It's about how you live your life day to day. I honestly don't care what someone believes in be it a Deity, a cosmic force, or merely their inner selves, it's all fine with me.

Personally the only reason I ever set foot in a church, temple, mosque, synagogue or similar is because of the art factor. I love old churches and similar buildings. All that praying over so many years can make for a really peaceful atmosphere and the light in such places is usually pretty amazing. Some of my best pics have been taken in churches and the like, but that's as far as my interest goes. Once the services start I'm usually out of there because people praying in public en masse and loudly just tends to make me uncomfortable.

For the record that's not me disrespecting any major religion or it's people. I'm not running from any church, religion etc. I've never really belonged to one in that way so there is no rebellion thing going on here. I just don't connect to places of worship on that level, to the big religions, never have. Likely that's why I get annoyed when people try to evangelize me. I just don't particularly see the need for it all. I'm a private person and I just don't see what goes on in my head and heart that way as anyone else's business.

[bombo]

I also find no enthusiasm in atheism. That's a believer's emotion.

Right, enthusiasm is contingent upon deluding oneself. By those lights the believers of Poseidon and Zeus most be very enthusiastic people.

[clmonk]

Bombo wrote: Right, enthusiasm is contingent upon deluding oneself.

Really??? I do not find this to be the case whatsoever in regard to myself. I do not find myself deluded too often, but I am enthusiastic about most things I set out to accomplish. I would find myself to be truly depressed if my life consisted of one non-enthusiastic plodding after another. If that were the case it is a strong argument for delusion.

[Parallax]

Right, enthusiasm is contingent upon deluding oneself. By those lights the believers of Poseidon and Zeus most be very enthusiastic people.

I'm enthusiastic about photography. Does that mean I am deluding myself into believing that images can be captured on film or electronically?

[bombo]

I'm enthusiastic about photography. Does that mean I am deluding myself into believing that images can be captured on film or electronically?

I do not understand your proposition, in mine I was being sarcastic towards the statement proposed by Ira, a rather disturbing statement towards our atheist friends. In any case, you are not deluding yourself: images can in fact be captured on film or electronically.

[tmj41765]

But, the second line, "forum is tough".....I don't understand. I find the attitudes here are very reasonable, including all the posts in this thread....so do you feel like explaining a bit further?

I don't Twitter or Facebook, don't have my own blog (I'm not even sure what that is?) or do any other kind of interaction with the web community. I love digital photography & my K7.
When I seen a Political & Religious forum, I thought that people could learn from each other that have the same or different ideas, when it was all said & done, They & I would move on.
But it seems to me that you have some who lie in wait for someone to post a opposing view & then pounce. Some trying to make you can't be thinking straight, or making fun of your ideas with comics or some link to web sites doing the same!
I know that once I feel criticized in that fashion, I attack back only making things worse. Two wrongs don't make a right!

[Ash]

I don't Twitter or Facebook, don't have my own blog (I'm not even sure what that is?) or do any other kind of interaction with the web community. I love digital photography & my K7.
When I seen a Political & Religious forum, I thought that people could learn from each other that have the same or different ideas, when it was all said & done, They & I would move on.
But it seems to me that you have some who lie in wait for someone to post a opposing view & then pounce. Some trying to make you can't be thinking straight, or making fun of your ideas with comics or some link to web sites doing the same!
I know that once I feel criticized in that fashion, I attack back only making things worse. Two wrongs don't make a right!

So my suggestion to you is to change your netiquette, something you DO have the power to change - avoid assertions that would attract argumentative scrutiny and don't bite on inflammatory responses to your comments.

You have your faith, and feel free to share it - protected nicely by the computer screen, and the same applies to our forum colleagues. Religion is a particularly delicate topic, because of how passionate people are, whether about their own faith or their choice not to have faith. So on the net it's important to tread wisely with such discussions - forums are hardly good forms of media for effective evangelism.