[lesmore49]

What do you think the value of post secondary education would be ?

By post secondary education I'm referring to graduating from college or university with a diploma or degree.

By value I'm not just referring to the career / professional opportunities a college or university education can provide (but please mention those).....I'm also referring to how this experience can change you in positive ways.

Of course for some, possibly there are some negative aspects to a post secondary education.

It would be of added interest to mention if you are either a college or university graduate.

[gokenin]

I have no stats to back this up but my general impression is that a college degree these says is turning into what a high school degree used to be. There are so many graduates now from college that the degree no longer holds the level of prestige that it once did. I see college graduates that still have their parents come in and buy their books for them, pick up their cap and gown for them. I don't know which is worse the parents or the children. College degree in History by the way and work in a University Bookstore.

[jeffkrol]

What do you think the value of post secondary education would be ?

By post secondary education I'm referring to graduating from college or university with a diploma or degree.

By value I'm not just referring to the career / professional opportunities a college or university education can provide (but please mention those).....I'm also referring to how this experience can change you in positive ways.

Of course for some, possibly there are some negative aspects to a post secondary education.

It would be of added interest to mention if you are either a college or university graduate.

We should have never eliminated the "apprentice" programs..... so many that skip college could benefit and so many that are in college that will not benefit could use other options. The "tech schools" help but so many would have been better off w/ on the job apprentice training...
My only recommendation as to college grads.. be prepared to move a whole bunch... if you want something in your field.
college does little except to show that you are trainable.....

[GeneV]

I have no stats to back this up but my general impression is that a college degree these says is turning into what a high school degree used to be. There are so many graduates now from college that the degree no longer holds the level of prestige that it once did. I see college graduates that still have their parents come in and buy their books for them, pick up their cap and gown for them. I don't know which is worse the parents or the children. College degree in History by the way and work in a University Bookstore.

FWIW, when I went to graduate school (for me) in Germany more than 30 years ago, I was surprised to find that, historically, the baccalaureate was not a degree that one generally sought or which was really recognized at the universities in Europe. It was just Zwischenprüfung, a test on the way to a degree that is more similar to a Master's. The Bologna Process may be changing the German system somewhat, but standards still seem higher than the U.S. For example, a Master's will be the minimum degree for an engineer under the European system.

College graduates tend to earn more during their life's then those without degrees. This is a well known fact. But don't underestimate the value of technical schools with certification programs. I pay at least $300 every time my A.C. breaks.

If you really want to earn $$$ you have to invest in yourself so that you have skills and training that other people don't.

A good college education will also enrich your life in ways that will not understand until you have completed it and lived a little.

The last thing you want to be in today's economy is just a guy with a brand new high school diploma.

[reeftool]

In todays economy, it is worth your while to be as versatile as possible. Things were different in the past. I have to admit that I broke all the rules and got away with it. My education ended after 11th grade when I hit the road in the 60's. I learned my trade as a Transport Refrigeration Mechanic mostly through hands on experience working alongside the old timers. I did get factory training but after I had been doing the job for 10 years. I don't think I could pull it off today. All my kids went to college. The arguement will always rage about trade/vocational schools vs. college. Today, you almost need both. There is a lot of oppurtunity currently in my line of work. There are very few kids entering the heavy duty repair field. It has become very technical. It's also heavy and dirty, something nobody wants to do anymore. We have had job openings in the shop for months that aren't getting filled. The hours suck, you work weekends, you are on call, all reasons nobody wants to do it. We have only one guy under 40. The day is going to come when the world grinds to a halt because nobody will be there to fix all the marvelous machines we depend on.

[rparmar]

It depends entirely on what degree at what school. If you go to an Ivy League university in the USA then you are getting an education maybe as good as a typical university in Canada or a decent one in Europe. Since you are in Canada you are way ahead of the curve there. If you got a desirable degree you could write your own ticket south of the border.

As far as how "the experience can change you in positive ways", that would depend on you entirely. Certainly many folk go to university and meet friends or even partners they keep for life. And many get exposed to a wider range of humanity than they would otherwise meet, with positive results.

Me, I found out about SLRs at university, by working for the school paper.

[Oro]

By value I'm not just referring to the career / professional opportunities a college or university education can provide (but please mention those).....I'm also referring to how this experience can change you in positive ways.

Economics aside, I think one of the great values is this. Before my observations, I'll state my background. 1) lower middle-class US, public schools. 2) Out of high school and to an Ivy leage school for baccalaureate, liberal arts. 3) Work force for 10 or 12 yeas, then returned to a large US state university for a second baccalaureate in a technical field, 4) from there to a technical/life science doctorate program.

My first college experience was overwhelming - it took me into a an incredibly stimulating environment of bright, thoughtful people. It taught me to think, analyze, and opened up ways of interpreting the world I would never have otherwise. It introduced me to many foreign friends, and got me out of the US on travels that taught me quite a lot. Much of the value was cultural as well as intellectual. It was invaluable, even if it did not give me a particular "trade" I was suddenly certified to do.

My second experience was to get such certification (life sciences). I was much more focused and applied myself. This was also a function of maturity. The experience was intellectually broadening, but not nearly so much culturally.

The life sciences doctoral work was purely grunt work - learning a massive amount of information and how to apply it. No intellectual content. My fellow students were about 10 years younger on average. A really, bright, inquisitive bunch. Part of the experience was the reward of meeting people of that caliber and making friends.

I gave up a pretty high-paying career to go back for the 2nd baccalaureate equivalent and gave up a tremendous amount of lost income to do the doctoral work and get into a more rewarding and slightly lower paying field. It was incredibly worth it for the non-economic benefits.

[rparmar]

Excellent post Oro. The social, cultural, intellectual and philosophical benefits of going to a large progressive college cannot be easily evaluated, but are no doubt more important than the economic. In my case the Honours science degree I attained was nowhere near as "useful" to me as the other factors. And it has never directly got me a job, though indirectly who can say?

[GeneV]

It depends entirely on what degree at what school. If you go to an Ivy League university in the USA then you are getting an education maybe as good as a typical university in Canada or a decent one in Europe. Since you are in Canada you are way ahead of the curve there. If you got a desirable degree you could write your own ticket south of the border.

That's a pretty low regard for universities in the U.S. I attended a non-Ivy league uiniversity in the U.S., and I have attended two well-regarded universities in Europe. As long as you are comparing apples to apples in terms of degree and subject, I think your estimate of the U.S. universities is a bit pessimistic. There are very good universities outside the Ivy League, and the European teaching model is far from perfect.

[rparmar]

That's a pretty low regard for universities in the U.S. I attended a non-Ivy league uiniversity in the U.S., and I have attended two well-regarded universities in Europe. As long as you are comparing apples to apples in terms of degree and subject, I think your estimate of the U.S. universities is a bit pessimistic. There are very good universities outside the Ivy League, and the European teaching model is far from perfect.

That same low regard is reflected in many studies, plus anecdotal experience and people I know who have taught in different countries. People with Canadian university degrees get snapped up all over the USA because they are simply better. Of course this is a generalisation -- what else do you expect from a one paragraph internet post? I could certainly list off quite a few US institutions that are excellent in their areas (Brown, Georgia Tech, CalTech, etc.). Likewise, Europe is a big place and many institutions will teach in areas that they have little staff expertise in. To make money.

[GeneV]

That same low regard is reflected in many studies, plus anecdotal experience and people I know who have taught in different countries. People with Canadian university degrees get snapped up all over the USA because they are simply better. Of course this is a generalisation -- what else do you expect from a one paragraph internet post? I could certainly list off quite a few US institutions that are excellent in their areas (Brown, Georgia Tech, CalTech, etc.). Likewise, Europe is a big place and many institutions will teach in areas that they have little staff expertise in. To make money.

I'd be interested in the studies. I have read a lot of comparisons that I don't think are valid, because the level at which an American student starts college is two years behind where students start in other countries. It is not the university that is failing, but the opportunity in secondary schools for college prep.

My comment about the teaching came from sitting through very well-regarded professors teaching in a well-regarded European university, with an ancient teaching technique that consisted of reading a hackneyed lecture to a mass of students. I have sat in on teaching at 5th rate junior colleges here where more effort was put into imparting learning. I could just as well read his book. This technique is also found in some of the "better" schools in the U.S.

Now, my area was not technical or engineering, so I won't comment there.

[rparmar]

It is not the university that is failing, but the opportunity in secondary schools for college prep.

No doubt. Students entering uni cannot form proper sentences, let alone paragraphs. And as for reasoning skills...

My comment about the teaching came from sitting through very well-regarded professors teaching in a well-regarded European university, with an ancient teaching technique that consisted of reading a hackneyed lecture to a mass of students.

Didactic teaching is still rampant, but so is an independent research-based approach. It really depends on the school.

[GeneV]

Didactic teaching is still rampant, but so is an independent research-based approach. It really depends on the school.

Most offered both and students were expected to take some of each (in Germany). In U.S. schools, the two were more often combined, and the lecturer took questions.

Now, my experience is several decades old, so I say "were" in both cases.

[deejjjaaaa]

College graduates tend to earn more during their life's then those without degrees. This is a well known fact.

it is simply because smarter people typically will go (and graduate in most cases) to college, not because degree itself worth anything extra.