Anyone tired of the mosque "news"

Parallax · 08-25-2010, 06:06 AM

Originally posted by GeneV

Though the religion of that large group of people may actually differ from one another.

Yes, and they repeatedly attack each other, absent any "infidels" being immediately available.

GeneV · 08-25-2010, 07:18 AM

Originally posted by Parallax

Yes, and they repeatedly attack each other, absent any "infidels" being immediately available.

My biggest concern about the Park51 center is that it will be a target for radicals. From what I read, radicals hate moderate Muslims as much or more than outright infidels, and a chance to punish moderates at a location that has now been hyped as being at "ground zero" may be too tempting.

Parallax · 08-25-2010, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by GeneV

My biggest concern about the Park51 center is that it will be a target for radicals. From what I read, radicals hate moderate Muslims as much or more than outright infidels, and a chance to punish moderates at a location that has now been hyped as being at "ground zero" may be too tempting.

I think it would be a target, but not just for radical Muslims. There are radicals from all religions that may use it as some twisted rationalization for, well, for whatever they can come up with as an excuse for blowing something up and killing.
You're right, it is a target; but it is an even money bet as to for whom it is a target.

FlashCube · 08-25-2010, 09:05 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by JohnInIndy

It's not a mosque. It's a cultural center. It's not ground zero. It's where the Towers collapsed.

It is part of ground zero. The reason is that the landing gear and fuselage from one of the planes landed. It went through the roof. That is why the building sold for 25% of its value. Furthermore, one of the big issues for many people is the leadership of this "Cultural Center" and the source of the Iman's money and many of his talks. Furthermore, the Towers didn't just collapse one day. The World Trade Center was destroyed by crashing planes in them in one of the largest terrorist attacks in history.

reeftool · 08-25-2010, 09:07 AM - **1 Like**

While not thrilled at the idea of a mosque at ground zero, Ron Paul make and important point. Public opinion can't overrule our constitutional rights.

Parallax · 08-25-2010, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by FlashCube

........... The World Trade Center was destroyed by crashing planes in them in one of the largest terrorist attacks in history.

No, no, that is what it used to be. It is now a "terrible tragedy", or "The World Trade Center disaster"

FlashCube · 08-25-2010, 09:20 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by reeftool

While not thrilled at the idea of a mosque at ground zero, Ron Paul make and important point. Public opinion can't overrule our constitutional rights.

What a lot of people are concerned about is the Iman's overruling other people's Constitutional rights by pushing for the integration of Sharia Law into the U.S. legal system. Hate speech is a 2-way street. Public relations and "good will" is obviously not on his agenda.

Hali · 08-25-2010, 09:33 AM

Don't forget radical Muslims are a tiny (but growing thanks to aggresive western foreign policy) minority. To think that any sort of Shari'a law would find it's way into the US legal system is just completely illogical. As you point out it would directly contravene many constitutional rights.

Parallax · 08-25-2010, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by Hali

Don't forget radical Muslims are a tiny (but growing thanks to aggresive western foreign policy) minority. ..................

You're joking, right?
The people that do the killing do it for one reason, and one reason only. They like it! They use all sorts of excuses/reasons/rationalizations, but they do it because they enjoy causing pain, suffering, and death.

GeneV · 08-25-2010, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by FlashCube

It is part of ground zero. The reason is that the landing gear and fuselage from one of the planes landed. It went through the roof. That is why the building sold for 25% of its value. Furthermore, one of the big issues for many people is the leadership of this "Cultural Center" and the source of the Iman's money and many of his talks. Furthermore, the Towers didn't just collapse one day. The World Trade Center was destroyed by crashing planes in them in one of the largest terrorist attacks in history.

So any place debris fell is "ground zero?" Webster defines "ground zero" as "the point directly above, below, or at which a nuclear explosion occurs." The metaphor fits the site of collapsing towers (which looks so much like an explosion that it feeds conspiracy theories), but not the locations, blocks away, of falling debris. A few larger pieces of aircraft were found several blocks away from the WTC site in multiple directions and further away than Park51, but smaller debris and dust from the buildings was scattered all over lower Manhattan up to a kilometer away. If you are talking about where debri fell, that's not "ground zero;" that's fallout.

Oldschool · 08-25-2010, 10:22 AM

Just so everyone knows what we're talking about, here's a shot of the property in question.

The street was blocked off due to the dueling demonstrations on Sunday. The neighborhood is typical lower Manhattan with cheap souvenir stores, Dunkin Donuts, clothing stores, and even strip joints. It doesn't exactly remind me of any type of shrine.

---------- Post added 08-25-10 at 01:24 PM ----------

Originally posted by FlashCube

What a lot of people are concerned about is the Iman's overruling other people's Constitutional rights by pushing for the integration of Sharia Law into the U.S. legal system. Hate speech is a 2-way street. Public relations and "good will" is obviously not on his agenda.

What examples do you have of Sharia law being integrated in the US legal system?

mikemike · 08-25-2010, 10:36 AM - **1 Like**

I think Hamas should open an embassy or diplomatic mission for gaza across the street from Temple Emanu El and see if they get as much support from the press.

GeneV · 08-25-2010, 10:41 AM

And this is ground zero:

---------- Post added 08-25-10 at 11:54 AM ----------

Originally posted by mikemike

I think Hamas should open an embassy or diplomatic mission for gaza across the street from Temple Emanu El and see if they get as much support from the press.

Park51 would probably be miffed if Hamas landed across the street, too. It is not a welcome neighbor anywhere in the U.S.

Hali · 08-25-2010, 04:55 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Parallax

You're joking, right?
The people that do the killing do it for one reason, and one reason only. They like it! They use all sorts of excuses/reasons/rationalizations, but they do it because they enjoy causing pain, suffering, and death.

That is certainly possible but highly unlikely considering that in the case of 11/9, 7/7 and many other attacks the people carrying them out would not be around to reap the enjoyment of it nor have the past experience to know that is what they enjoy.

I would suggest that the growth of attempted attacks on the west is simply resentment. I guess you would resent any country which installed a ruthless dictator, bombed your house, killed your family, killed your friends, treated you with complete disgust etc.

I'm not saying what they do is right, I'm just saying it's pretty obvious why radicalisation is growing. I saw a particularly moving bit of film with an afghan kid swearing to join the war and kill American and British soldiers after they killed his (innocent) father which I think illustrates the point quite well...

GeneV · 08-25-2010, 05:13 PM

Originally posted by Parallax

You're joking, right?
The people that do the killing do it for one reason, and one reason only. They like it! They use all sorts of excuses/reasons/rationalizations, but they do it because they enjoy causing pain, suffering, and death.

Jim, I really wonder what your support is for that. They are blowing themselves up for a thrill? Did the kamakazes dove their planes into a ship because they enjoyed killing people?

08-25-2010, 10:02 AM	#25
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by FlashCube It is part of ground zero. The reason is that the landing gear and fuselage from one of the planes landed. It went through the roof. That is why the building sold for 25% of its value. Furthermore, one of the big issues for many people is the leadership of this "Cultural Center" and the source of the Iman's money and many of his talks. Furthermore, the Towers didn't just collapse one day. The World Trade Center was destroyed by crashing planes in them in one of the largest terrorist attacks in history. So any place debris fell is "ground zero?" Webster defines "ground zero" as "the point directly above, below, or at which a nuclear explosion occurs." The metaphor fits the site of collapsing towers (which looks so much like an explosion that it feeds conspiracy theories), but not the locations, blocks away, of falling debris. A few larger pieces of aircraft were found several blocks away from the WTC site in multiple directions and further away than Park51, but smaller debris and dust from the buildings was scattered all over lower Manhattan up to a kilometer away. If you are talking about where debri fell, that's not "ground zero;" that's fallout. Last edited by GeneV; 08-25-2010 at 10:31 AM.

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08-25-2010, 06:06 AM	#16
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by GeneV Though the religion of that large group of people may actually differ from one another. Yes, and they repeatedly attack each other, absent any "infidels" being immediately available.

08-25-2010, 07:18 AM	#17
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by Parallax Yes, and they repeatedly attack each other, absent any "infidels" being immediately available. My biggest concern about the Park51 center is that it will be a target for radicals. From what I read, radicals hate moderate Muslims as much or more than outright infidels, and a chance to punish moderates at a location that has now been hyped as being at "ground zero" may be too tempting.

08-25-2010, 08:03 AM	#18
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by GeneV My biggest concern about the Park51 center is that it will be a target for radicals. From what I read, radicals hate moderate Muslims as much or more than outright infidels, and a chance to punish moderates at a location that has now been hyped as being at "ground zero" may be too tempting. I think it would be a target, but not just for radical Muslims. There are radicals from all religions that may use it as some twisted rationalization for, well, for whatever they can come up with as an excuse for blowing something up and killing. You're right, it is a target; but it is an even money bet as to for whom it is a target.

08-25-2010, 09:05 AM - 1 Like	#19
FlashCube Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: In Transition Posts: 173	Originally posted by JohnInIndy It's not a mosque. It's a cultural center. It's not ground zero. It's where the Towers collapsed. It is part of ground zero. The reason is that the landing gear and fuselage from one of the planes landed. It went through the roof. That is why the building sold for 25% of its value. Furthermore, one of the big issues for many people is the leadership of this "Cultural Center" and the source of the Iman's money and many of his talks. Furthermore, the Towers didn't just collapse one day. The World Trade Center was destroyed by crashing planes in them in one of the largest terrorist attacks in history.

08-25-2010, 09:07 AM - 1 Like	#20
reeftool Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Upstate New York Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,554	While not thrilled at the idea of a mosque at ground zero, Ron Paul make and important point. Public opinion can't overrule our constitutional rights.

08-25-2010, 09:19 AM	#21
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by FlashCube ........... The World Trade Center was destroyed by crashing planes in them in one of the largest terrorist attacks in history. No, no, that is what it used to be. It is now a "terrible tragedy", or "The World Trade Center disaster"

08-25-2010, 09:20 AM - 1 Like	#22
FlashCube Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: In Transition Posts: 173	Originally posted by reeftool While not thrilled at the idea of a mosque at ground zero, Ron Paul make and important point. Public opinion can't overrule our constitutional rights. What a lot of people are concerned about is the Iman's overruling other people's Constitutional rights by pushing for the integration of Sharia Law into the U.S. legal system. Hate speech is a 2-way street. Public relations and "good will" is obviously not on his agenda.

08-25-2010, 09:33 AM	#23
Hali Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 48	Don't forget radical Muslims are a tiny (but growing thanks to aggresive western foreign policy) minority. To think that any sort of Shari'a law would find it's way into the US legal system is just completely illogical. As you point out it would directly contravene many constitutional rights.

08-25-2010, 09:50 AM	#24
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by Hali Don't forget radical Muslims are a tiny (but growing thanks to aggresive western foreign policy) minority. .................. You're joking, right? The people that do the killing do it for one reason, and one reason only. They like it! They use all sorts of excuses/reasons/rationalizations, but they do it because they enjoy causing pain, suffering, and death.

08-25-2010, 10:22 AM	#26
Oldschool Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Central NJ Posts: 1,278	Just so everyone knows what we're talking about, here's a shot of the property in question. The street was blocked off due to the dueling demonstrations on Sunday. The neighborhood is typical lower Manhattan with cheap souvenir stores, Dunkin Donuts, clothing stores, and even strip joints. It doesn't exactly remind me of any type of shrine. ---------- Post added 08-25-10 at 01:24 PM ---------- Originally posted by FlashCube What a lot of people are concerned about is the Iman's overruling other people's Constitutional rights by pushing for the integration of Sharia Law into the U.S. legal system. Hate speech is a 2-way street. Public relations and "good will" is obviously not on his agenda. What examples do you have of Sharia law being integrated in the US legal system?

08-25-2010, 10:36 AM - 1 Like	#27
mikemike Inactive Account Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: New Orleans Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,053	I think Hamas should open an embassy or diplomatic mission for gaza across the street from Temple Emanu El and see if they get as much support from the press.

08-25-2010, 10:41 AM	#28
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	And this is ground zero: ---------- Post added 08-25-10 at 11:54 AM ---------- Originally posted by mikemike I think Hamas should open an embassy or diplomatic mission for gaza across the street from Temple Emanu El and see if they get as much support from the press. Park51 would probably be miffed if Hamas landed across the street, too. It is not a welcome neighbor anywhere in the U.S.

08-25-2010, 04:55 PM - 1 Like	#29
Hali Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: United Kingdom Posts: 48	Originally posted by Parallax You're joking, right? The people that do the killing do it for one reason, and one reason only. They like it! They use all sorts of excuses/reasons/rationalizations, but they do it because they enjoy causing pain, suffering, and death. That is certainly possible but highly unlikely considering that in the case of 11/9, 7/7 and many other attacks the people carrying them out would not be around to reap the enjoyment of it nor have the past experience to know that is what they enjoy. I would suggest that the growth of attempted attacks on the west is simply resentment. I guess you would resent any country which installed a ruthless dictator, bombed your house, killed your family, killed your friends, treated you with complete disgust etc. I'm not saying what they do is right, I'm just saying it's pretty obvious why radicalisation is growing. I saw a particularly moving bit of film with an afghan kid swearing to join the war and kill American and British soldiers after they killed his (innocent) father which I think illustrates the point quite well...

08-25-2010, 05:13 PM	#30
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by Parallax You're joking, right? The people that do the killing do it for one reason, and one reason only. They like it! They use all sorts of excuses/reasons/rationalizations, but they do it because they enjoy causing pain, suffering, and death. Jim, I really wonder what your support is for that. They are blowing themselves up for a thrill? Did the kamakazes dove their planes into a ship because they enjoyed killing people?