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08-29-2010, 11:07 AM - 1 Like   #16
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Don't hang out there

First I would avoid playing your adversary's game by not categorizing another Internet forum voice by the brand name of their camera. You are not your camera, let alone the brand name attached.

Iíd avoid hanging out there; even if you are right you will lose. Unless you are a masochist

Only the most insecure of working photographers will vehemently promote or bash camera brands and invoke the P-word. Most likely this guy (I assume itís a guy, woman tend to feel a need to impress in other ways) is a textbook wannabe.

Do realize that being a ďprofessionalĒ photographer is very different from being a ďprofessionalĒ as in physician, attorney, architect, or even computer systems analyst. I run a pro group composed of some extremely successful shooters and a constant joke is how rare it is for any two photographers to agree on anything (and itís great that we have a good time and even learn a few things from each other).

Regarding his premise, there is some truth and some BS. It depends on the requirements of the job or shall I say the niche most working photographers get themselves into.

Some working photographers care less about the art side of photography, or even the technology--itís really not what you use, but if and how you get the work done quickly. That said, many corporate procurement offices manage equipment sales. Guess what the product choices are?

Brand doesnít matter much--unless it delivers something very special with a decent business return cost. My peers tend to talk lenses over bodies, and software more than anything, probably because they are older (40-70) and not digital from their vocational dawn like younger shooters. Canonís latest tilt/shift lens has caught many folksí attention. So has Lightroom. The LX3 is also very popular for personal use, and I may just grab one too. Iíll also say that my Voigtlander 125mm f2.5 with the square hood got a lot of oohs and ahhs, probably due to its commanding retro presence and serious weight.

About 15% of my peers still have a Pentax 6x7 on call for high-end real estate portfolio work and some studio fashion gigs. So Pentax has a positive image to those old enough to know and appreciate history.

With technological capabilities of popular cameras so strong and microstock so cheap and easy, working photographers are called upon for more challenging shooting assignments that include technical issues such as low light, fast movement, and serious post processing. These gigs do require the FF advantages offered by Nikon and Canon (leaving the post work out of our discussion).

Equally important are the professional support services and in-person account management that smaller brands like Pentax and Olympus and Sony simply cannot provide. Maybe 30 years ago, but not now.

The Pentax 645D may make inroads for product and studio and real estate work, but it will require them to spend a lot of money to build a support network. Iím thinking that presently the camera is aimed at the vanity market to recoup some product development capital without more serious outlay of cash. But itís a professional tool for sure.

Most other working assignments involve the ability to recognize and capture people and their emotions. Thatís where results over camera brand matter, itís where your portfolio speaks for you. To me, better results stem from the photographer being an engaging human being. It also is part of a self-propelling cycle that feeds into one getting better and better gigs because people like working with you. Shooters at this level wonít hassle you over nonsense on the Internet.

M

08-29-2010, 12:33 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Boris Quote
You see, humans are still very social animals. So, to be accepted as a pro by your fellow bipedal walking/talking apes, one has to demonstrate certain social qualities. We're not talking here about how the pictures will turn out or if this person has any clue whatsoever re photography. As well, they might, but it is not the point. The point is that you have to make proper first impression, to make one feel (in that part of the brain of theirs that is farthest from the more advanced parts) that they are being served by the true leader of a pack, so to say. So it has to be a big honking Canikon body with just as big zoom lens and a flash to boot. (No offense here to fellow Canikon shooters, none at all.)
ohhhhhhhhhh!! I had a feeling there was an element of that... but I wasn't sure

QuoteQuote:
I had my share of those ad nauseum arguments in another forum. For most part it was totally useless loss of time and effort. Like my mother keeps saying - "you cannot plant your head on top of their shoulders"...
I love that!! Your mother is a very sensible woman

I don't think I'll bother anymore. I always end up regretting my decision to suggest something different to Canon or Nikon...
08-29-2010, 12:57 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Miguel Quote
First I would avoid playing your adversary's game by not categorizing another Internet forum voice by the brand name of their camera. You are not your camera, let alone the brand name attached.

Iíd avoid hanging out there; even if you are right you will lose. Unless you are a masochist
These are the words that got up my nose, and made me want to have the op see that there is more to photography than Canon and Nikon...
"Canon or Nikon it doesn't matter, they are both as good as each other and both have a significant number of lenses in their range. The lesser brand cameras, Sony, Pentax etc whilst making good cameras have very few lenses in the range and the quality of the lenses sometimes is just not up to scratch"

QuoteQuote:
Only the most insecure of working photographers will vehemently promote or bash camera brands and invoke the P-word. Most likely this guy (I assume itís a guy, woman tend to feel a need to impress in other ways) is a textbook wannabe.
Could be, he claims to have 30 years pro experience. I could make the same claim but without the evidence it doesn't mean a thing.

QuoteQuote:
...

Regarding his premise, there is some truth and some BS. It depends on the requirements of the job or shall I say the niche most working photographers get themselves into.
The guy went underwater, he said, and has been published and even won a photography award. But, if I were him, making the argument he was, I think I'd be wanting to show my stuff. I have a friend who's been published too, and she uses an Oly 520... so that, to me, is no argument.

QuoteQuote:
Some working photographers care less about the art side of photography, or even the technology--itís really not what you use, but if and how you get the work done quickly. That said, many corporate procurement offices manage equipment sales. Guess what the product choices are?

Brand doesnít matter much--unless it delivers something very special with a decent business return cost. My peers tend to talk lenses over bodies, and software more than anything, probably because they are older (40-70) and not digital from their vocational dawn like younger shooters. Canonís latest tilt/shift lens has caught many folksí attention. So has Lightroom. The LX3 is also very popular for personal use, and I may just grab one too. Iíll also say that my Voigtlander 125mm f2.5 with the square hood got a lot of oohs and ahhs, probably due to its commanding retro presence and serious weight.

About 15% of my peers still have a Pentax 6x7 on call for high-end real estate portfolio work and some studio fashion gigs. So Pentax has a positive image to those old enough to know and appreciate history.

With technological capabilities of popular cameras so strong and microstock so cheap and easy, working photographers are called upon for more challenging shooting assignments that include technical issues such as low light, fast movement, and serious post processing. These gigs do require the FF advantages offered by Nikon and Canon (leaving the post work out of our discussion).

Equally important are the professional support services and in-person account management that smaller brands like Pentax and Olympus and Sony simply cannot provide. Maybe 30 years ago, but not now.

The Pentax 645D may make inroads for product and studio and real estate work, but it will require them to spend a lot of money to build a support network. Iím thinking that presently the camera is aimed at the vanity market to recoup some product development capital without more serious outlay of cash. But itís a professional tool for sure.

Most other working assignments involve the ability to recognize and capture people and their emotions. Thatís where results over camera brand matter, itís where your portfolio speaks for you. To me, better results stem from the photographer being an engaging human being. It also is part of a self-propelling cycle that feeds into one getting better and better gigs because people like working with you. Shooters at this level wonít hassle you over nonsense on the Internet.

M
Thanks for your wise and sensible words, Miguel. I can see now how the system works. Also coupled with Digitalis's response, there are some things that now make sense. Particularly interesting for me was your remarks about the professional support services etc. If the guy had talked about that stuff, I would have been able to see his point about using Canikon.

Last edited by kyteflyer; 08-29-2010 at 12:59 PM. Reason: tag fix
08-29-2010, 01:21 PM   #19
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Some people believe that one can be a professional simply by owning one of those Canikon cameras - and like to think that everyone should do the same. The more I talk to these people, the more I know that they are just BS and blowing hot air (sometimes just quoted headlines from DPreview and believe it is true as gospel). I used to discuss with a group of Canikon users regularly to share ideas with the aim to improve general knowledge on photography and techniques - don't think it is worth my time anymore.

08-29-2010, 06:14 PM   #20
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Brand Awareness is fodder to the sheeple. And Pentax sucks at that.
08-29-2010, 11:56 PM   #21
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Hi guys.. went back to the forum just a while ago, after a day at work, and a whole page of posts from other photographers (at least ONE of whom I know for certain is a real professional with a history in still and movies: I've seen his work) supporting my stance. It was just lovely to read that.

@Eyespy: Pentax and marketing seem to be almost mutually exclusive terms. Still, something must have tweaked me, when I went to buy my first dSLR. I had never owned a Pentax, and had no particular brand loyalty (although if I had slightly newer Minolta lenses I likely would have gone Sony). Why did I buy Pentax? Because at the time (and I think still) its the camera that gives the absolute best bang for the buck. At the time, the competitors for me were the D80, D60, 1000D, 450D, E520 and A300, A350. All of them cost more, and presented fewer features than the K200D which I eventually purchased. It was a no-brainer.

This whole issue with this guy has made me even more determined to stick with Pentax. I have no reason to switch to any other brand.

Last edited by kyteflyer; 08-29-2010 at 11:57 PM. Reason: grammar!!!
08-30-2010, 11:00 AM   #22
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The "Route to Pro" argument is pretty ridiculous to me.

By the same reasoning, anyone shopping for a car should buy an Audi because of their dominance at Le Mans.

Driving any other car would prevent you from being a professional driver. QED.
08-31-2010, 09:39 AM   #23
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I know several pro photographers. The newspaper sports guys for the area papers I got to know pretty well through the years as they covered the different rowing events my daughter was competing in. We were usually shooting side by side. The camera's they were using were owned by the newspaper, not them personally. One of them doesn't use a DSLR much anymore but a Panasonic super zoom for his own personal use. He loves it by the way. Say's he will never take an SLR on vacation again ever.

08-31-2010, 09:49 AM   #24
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Why are they so difficult? Well, I think they're difficult for the same reason so many people belong to any group. It's pack mentality. Anything that's different is always inferior and something to be avoided. There's only one right way, blah, blah, blah...

The "majority" hate people who think outside the box. They'd rather be one of the many, take the popular road than have to think about what might be really best for themselves. That's not to say a Nikon or a Canon might not work best for them, but goodness forbid they should actually allow themselves anything but the most popular options.

Personally, I left that mentality back in high school, which is where IMHO, where it belongs but many people, particularly in America, they still have it. It's what they're used to. It's what they're comfortable with, the popularity of the brand is all and an original thought is just plain beyond them at this point. It doesn't mean they're all stupid, but things like this do point to how lazy and how complacent and narrow minded we've gotten about some things in our society lately.

I like Pentax, but that doesn't mean that I think every other camera on the planet is worthless. Would I ever buy another brand? Maybe if the camera fit what I needed to be doing at the time and cost me less. I'd prefer Pentax, and with good reason I think, but that doesn't make me blind to the fact that other companies can and do make decent cameras.
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