[kyteflyer]

I have just lost a discussion... debate... argument... in another forum

The only argument I wanted to put was that the world of photography does NOT turn on the purchase of a Nikon (or Canon) and that someone just beginning should also consider other brands. I wasn't particularly pushing Pentax, because the guy had his eye on the new Sony, but there was an individual or 6 who immediately weighed in with "MUST have a Nikon or Canon" And even Canon was added somewhat grudgingly.

The argument eventually (well rather quickly really) moved to the inevitable "if you want to go pro you have to have a Nikon or Canon". I was put firmly in my place by being told I had no idea what I was talking about (all I wanted was consideration of alternatives) and had never used "pro glass" so obviously I hadn't a clue. ( I don't know why he thought that, but anyway...)

I'm beginning to think that its not even worth bothering to suggest alternatives in a forum where one is outnumbered about 40:1 by Nikon users. It felt like the guy could not even really understand what I was saying. He explained to me in terms I could understand that he knew best because he has been in photography for 40 years, a great deal of which has been pro... I get that... but what I don't get is why he (and others of his ilk) cannot seem to accept that there are decent alternatives.

Why is it not possible to be a professional photographer if you shoot with Pentax, Sony, Olympus? Can someone give me an answer that is factual and unemotional?

I'm pretty annoyed at having my choice of camera (being Pentax) being compared to his D700 as a hyundai to a mercedes. Is he right? Am I wrong? Should I go out now, and sell my gear to buy a D700 so I will be considered to be a proper photographer? Should I immediately go out and beg forgiveness of every canikon owner I know? Can you tell I'm really ticked off?

I've left the argument, by the way, by saying its all opinion anyway. No doubt he will respond that its all fact, but I won't go in again. Pity the poor guy who just wanted help deciding what to get for photographing teeth - a business thing- and other stuff as a sideline, with a $1500 budget.

Advance apologies to Canikon owners who do not have this attitude, I know there are a lot of you.

[Boris]

I am thinking that the answer to your question (sans the attitude of diehards, which, I opine is the same everywhere, brand notwithstanding) is market. If you want to be hired as a pro, you'd have to adhere to what is common in the specific branch of photography, be it wedding, nature, etc.

Here is a bit of tangential idea for you: I was walking streets of Tel Aviv just last Friday. K-7 with FA 43 on my neck. Small, easy to confuse with other cameras. A man from the ice cream shop asked me - "Is it a good camera?" I said: "Oh, yes, of course it is a good camera"... And then he asked - "What is its zoom"? I said: "None, it is an interchangeable lens camera"... He nodded visibly loosing his interest.

Also, there is nothing wrong with Hyundai cars, really. I drive one (Kia C'eed, sister car of Hyundai I30) and I think it is most excellent car in its price segment.

Finally, you're ticked off, it is rather evident from what you wrote. That's also ok, I think.

Alternatives are good and having an open mind is better still. But it is not that easy to keep that kind of attitude everywhere and everytime...

[wlachan]

What you have experienced really goes well beyond the scope of camera brand, or even photography. When people want to believe something so badly, they will regardless of how ridiculous their beliefs may be. I guess human beings just aren't as advance and intelligent as we make ourselves to be.

[kyteflyer]

I am thinking that the answer to your question (sans the attitude of diehards, which, I opine is the same everywhere, brand notwithstanding) is market. If you want to be hired as a pro, you'd have to adhere to what is common in the specific branch of photography, be it wedding, nature, etc.

See, now I know everyone *thinks* you must have a Canikon to do all of these, but I dispute that. A long peruse in the pentax gallery, in the galleries here, disproves it immediately. All one needs is the time to show the punters. I did weddings and band shots in the very early 80s with a fully manual Minolta and a 50mm Rokkor lens. No complaints that I didnt have pro gear, not even from the friend who lent me his darkroom and who also did weddings etc, with his Nikon stuff.

Here is a bit of tangential idea for you: I was walking streets of Tel Aviv just last Friday. K-7 with FA 43 on my neck. Small, easy to confuse with other cameras. A man from the ice cream shop asked me - "Is it a good camera?" I said: "Oh, yes, of course it is a good camera"... And then he asked - "What is its zoom"? I said: "None, it is an interchangeable lens camera"... He nodded visibly loosing his interest.

He thought you had a superzoom And thats what a lot of people want.

Also, there is nothing wrong with Hyundai cars, really. I drive one (Kia C'eed, sister car of Hyundai I30) and I think it is most excellent car in its price segment.

Agreed, and its probably part of a good argument. For myself, its a little Suzuki. We can't all drive Mercedes, nor should we expect to.

Finally, you're ticked off, it is rather evident from what you wrote. That's also ok, I think.

Alternatives are good and having an open mind is better still. But it is not that easy to keep that kind of attitude everywhere and everytime...

I don't want to be openminded anymore, I really want to go back in and PROVE him wrong. Even if I cant. but I wont try

[kyteflyer]

What you have experienced really goes well beyond the scope of camera brand, or even photography. When people want to believe something so badly, they will regardless of how ridiculous their beliefs may be. I guess human beings just aren't as advance and intelligent as we make ourselves to be.

I thought it went beyond. Perhaps my response to his comment that there was no good pentax glass (codswallop) provoked something.

[Digitalis]

To work professionally here in Adelaide, you have to have a Canon. Nikon doesn't cut it unless you have a D3X. However for my personal and for some professional jobs I always take a pentax on the side. And it is always interesting to note the number of images some of my clients pick that come from my K-7 or K10D. For sporting work I have a canon 1DMKIIN with a EF 400mm f/2.8L IS and 1DsMKIII with EF 200mm f/1.8L - and a pentax K-7 with a Sigma 100-300mm f/4 APO EX DG

[kyteflyer]

To work professionally here in Adelaide, you have to have a Canon. Nikon doesn't cut it unless you have a D3X.

Not even a D700? who makes these decisions? They don't make sense to me.

However for my personal and for some professional jobs I always take a pentax on the side. And it is always interesting to note the number of images some of my clients pick that come from my K-7 or K10D.

I've had a lot of people amazed that my boring as batshit old K200 can make great shots. Can't count the number of people who have asked me which C or N I have.

For sporting work I have a canon 1DMKIIN with a EF 400mm f/2.8L IS and 1DsMKIII with EF 200mm f/1.8L - and a pentax K-7 with a Sigma 100-300mm f/4 APO EX DG

Which do you use most? I guess for sporting stuff you must have a fast big zoom and Pentax doesn't really have those anymore. I often wonder why that is... they used to have them but now they are gone, all that remains are the 200 and 300s (and the third party lenses of course)

[Digitalis]

Not even a D700? who makes these decisions? They don't make sense to me.

newspaper editors, advertising designers. They all want more resolution,lower noise. and they want you to work for less, More often than not some have ridiculous demands.

[Boris]

He thought you had a superzoom And thats what a lot of people want.

Agreed, and its probably part of a good argument. For myself, its a little Suzuki. We can't all drive Mercedes, nor should we expect to.


I don't want to be openminded anymore, I really want to go back in and PROVE him wrong. Even if I cant. but I wont try

You see, humans are still very social animals. So, to be accepted as a pro by your fellow bipedal walking/talking apes, one has to demonstrate certain social qualities. We're not talking here about how the pictures will turn out or if this person has any clue whatsoever re photography. As well, they might, but it is not the point. The point is that you have to make proper first impression, to make one feel (in that part of the brain of theirs that is farthest from the more advanced parts) that they are being served by the true leader of a pack, so to say. So it has to be a big honking Canikon body with just as big zoom lens and a flash to boot. (No offense here to fellow Canikon shooters, none at all.)

I had my share of those ad nauseum arguments in another forum. For most part it was totally useless loss of time and effort. Like my mother keeps saying - "you cannot plant your head on top of their shoulders"...

[pingflood]

The argument eventually (well rather quickly really) moved to the inevitable "if you want to go pro you have to have a Nikon or Canon". I was put firmly in my place by being told I had no idea what I was talking about (all I wanted was consideration of alternatives) and had never used "pro glass" so obviously I hadn't a clue. ( I don't know why he thought that, but anyway...)

Most people yammering about 1-series Canon bodies and "pro glass" have never used either... most ACTUAL pros I have talked to are very open minded when it comes to gear, it's mostly the "Internet experts" that get near-religious about certain brands and/or product lines.

Now, there is SOMEWHAT of a point to the having to have a Canon or Nikon, and it is that some customers expect you to come with "pro gear" and if show up with a Pentax or Olympus they will not consider you a serious photographer. Sure, it is rather ridiculous, but as a working photographer you also need to worry about what your customer thinks, be it right or wrong. Also, should you need to rent gear it is a hell of a lot easier to do with one of the two big brands.

By the way, there is a fair number of Pentax zealots around too, a number of them post on here.

[reeftool]

Always consider the source. The Canikon fanboys you were chatting with on the other forum were probably not pro's but wannabee's. They chose their camera because it is their status symbol, not a tool of their trade.

[TaoMaas]

I have NEVER seen any brand-specific requirements on professional photography. If there's a specification, it's related to format...not brand of camera. Having said that, there IS a reason to use gear that imparts "professional" to the average viewer. To that end, I've seen folks shoot with medium format gear because it looks more professional (even though they knew 35mm would be okay) and I've seen people choose big video cameras for the same reason. But, when it's a simple case of choosing the best image for the job, as opposed to 'looking' the part of a pro photographer, nobody cares what camera you used.

[melander]

The pros are out taking photos, the hope-to-be pros sits inside debating on the internet

[traderdrew]

A lot of Canon users think they have the best camera and lenses and they pride themselves on it. The few I know around here shoot sports and wildlife.

I don't like what some companies do and they sell commercial lines of DSLR cameras and lenses that don't meet my standards and their professional lines where you can spend a large amount of money.

I have a flickr.com page and I have seen poor and imperfect shots as well as great shots from Canon. I have seen great shots from Pentax, Olympus, Panasonic and Sony. It gives me the impression it is how you use your camera and what you are shooting and if it comes with a sharp lens.

I believe in Pentax mainly because of shake reduction inside their cameras. (Why should I pay for it everytime I buy another lens?) and good quality sharp lenses across the board and weather resistant features. I was impressed with the pentaxphotogallery.com and that is partly what made me switch brands.

One of the judges at a recent local photo contest said the first and second place winners won with point and shoot cameras. That means they beat shooters with expensive DSLRs. He said the images start from here (pointing to his head).

[Ratmagiclady]

Always consider the source. The Canikon fanboys you were chatting with on the other forum were probably not pro's but wannabee's. They chose their camera because it is their status symbol, not a tool of their trade.

There's pretty much that. Like I say a lot, 'A pro camera is one you can make money on.'

These guys saying 'Pro, Pro, Pro,' ...probably aren't. They certainly wouldn't be trying to pick on Pentax about *glass:* that just shows ignorance.

There are real reasons why the big brands with the pro services and made-for-the-trade bodies have a lot of working pros locked in, of course: one thing that I observed was that buying the Canon or Nikon stuff I could possibly afford, would really have meant I'd be shooting far less serious gear, all of which would be stopgaps in desperate need of upgrades if I *did* get to a place where I needed/could afford better.


Right now I'm shooting a K20d and a few nice primes, mostly. And pretty darn happy about this: the other option wouldn't have been an EOS-1 or even a d300: it would have been like a D70 or 30d.

Hardly matters what brand of stuff I'd have to trade up, if I needed the pro services and specs: I may as well be happy and getting the better results in the meantime.

Fact is, for me, Pentax has a pretty good chance of keeping me for my digital work, anyway, even if they don't go for an all-out pro camera. As long as they keep improving the basics, what they're doing ought to suit my purposes quite well. I figure, if I need more, I'll probably be getting paid accordingly. If that's not to be, it wouldn't help anything to be shooting a Rebel all along.