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09-06-2010, 08:07 AM   #1
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Rebuilding the Infrastructure - A Good Idea?

Just read about the Obama proposal to stimulate the economy and create jobs with a government backed investment in highways , rail systems and airports.
At first I actually said now he's thinking but soon I had questions. I thought about the state backed Global Transpark here in NC which was a collossal failure (big airport sitting vacant) and previous federal funding for rail systems. Still maybe we can learn from the past.
One thing I would like to see if this program goes through is exclusive use of American materials , equiptment and labor. This is a subject that I feel very strongly about . If American tax dollars are being used American companies and workers should get the rewards. That is reinvestment. When tax dollars go to foriegn countries that is throwing money out the window. For example the cash for clunkers program should have only been for purchase of vehicles built by an American auto maker. So if this program is approved with stippulations that the work be done by American contractors using American materials , equiptment and labor it might in my personal opinion be the best thing Barry O has done so far.
What do you guys think?
BTW as a side to this idea... I am a marine mechanic with many years of experience and training on all brands of outboard motors. It really pisses me off when I see U.S. millitary boats with Honda outboards on the back.


Last edited by seacapt; 09-06-2010 at 08:18 AM.
09-06-2010, 08:41 AM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by seacapt Quote
Just read about the Obama proposal to stimulate the economy and create jobs with a government backed investment in highways , rail systems and airports.
At first I actually said now he's thinking but soon I had questions. I thought about the state backed Global Transpark here in NC which was a colossal failure (big airport sitting vacant) and previous federal funding for rail systems. Still maybe we can learn from the past.
One thing I would like to see if this program goes through is exclusive use of American materials , equipment and labor. This is a subject that I feel very strongly about . If American tax dollars are being used American companies and workers should get the rewards. That is reinvestment. When tax dollars go to foreign countries that is throwing money out the window. For example the cash for clunkers program should have only been for purchase of vehicles built by an American auto maker. So if this program is approved with stipulations that the work be done by American contractors using American materials , equipment and labor it might in my personal opinion be the best thing Barry O has done so far.
What do you guys think?
I agree in full in principal, but logistally that is probably not possible though you raise a valid point on it should be possible IF gov goes in the business of building or re-building industry in the US.. whole nuther can of socialist words.....
No, we allowed our corps to be way to global to even realize who holds what .
QuoteOriginally posted by seacapt Quote
BTW as a side to this idea... I am a marine mechanic with many years of experience and training on all brands of outboard motors. It really pisses me off when I see U.S. military boats with Honda outboards on the back.
http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=4537
QuoteQuote:
Manufacturing and R&D

Honda Power Equipment products are produced at 11 Honda manufacturing facilities around the world, including Honda Power Equipment Mfg., Inc., located in Swepsonville, North Carolina. Research, development, and testing activities are conducted at Honda R&D Americas, Inc., also located in Swepsonville, and Honda R&D Co., Ltd., in Japan.

Honda Power Equipment Mfg., Inc. (HPE) has boosted its general purpose engine production to 1,500,000 engines per year for use by Honda and other OEMs.
In addition to engines, HPE produces Honda lawnmowers, snowblowers, pumps, mini-tillers and string trimmers. Honda's North Carolina Research and Development Center is an 11,000 square foot facility established in 1993 that conducts product engineering, prototype development, and testing of power equipment products.

Editor's Note:

Honda Power Equipment, a division of American Honda Motor Co., Inc., markets a complete range of outdoor power equipment, including outboard marine engines, general purpose engines, generators, lawnmowers, pumps, snowblowers, tillers and trimmers for commercial, rental and residential applications. Its comprehensive product line is powered exclusively by 4-stroke engines.

Information for media regarding Honda products is available at Honda Media Newsroom.
Consumer information regarding Honda products is available at Honda.com: Official Site of American Honda Motor Co., Inc.

* Honda products are produced in the United States using domestically and globally sourced parts.
Reminds me of the time when a man said to me "I'd only buy Ford because there made in the USA" and I opened the hood of the Ranger and showed him the mitsubishi engine.........
evinrude is owned by a Swedish company and I would love to see all Mercs.... which are made here. Well some.......
Corporate Plant & Locations | Mercury Marine
QuoteQuote:
Manufacturing Locations

Charleston, South Carolina (Cummins MerCruiser Diesel joint venture)
Fond du Lac, Wisconsin, USA
Juarez, Mexico
Komagane, Japan (TMC joint venture)
Petit-Rechain, Belgium
St. Cloud, Florida, USA
Stillwater, Oklahoma, USA
Suzhou, China
http://www.mercurymarine.com/about/plant-and-locations/
09-06-2010, 10:01 AM   #3
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Jeff I'm aware Honda has facillities here as do Yamaha , Suzuki and Volvo Penta however the lion's share goes abroad.
With regard to Mercury yes they are in a joint venture with Tohatsu for the small 4 stroke Mercs / LPDI Tohatsus and obviously have other foriegn facillities but they are the only remaining US outboard engine manufacturer. The big 4 Stoke Verado engines were developed and are built in the US and are a strong product. They could easily take out some of the "consumer convienience" features and make milspec engines.
Johnson & Evenrude are now Bombarier Recreational Products holdings due to the fact that OMC's purchase of exclusive world rights to the Ficht injector system failed to yield a dependable engine that could meet the EPA and California clean emissions specs.
The current Johnson 4stroke engines are Suzukis painted white and Yamaha does use alot of Ford product.
BTW the Navy is still using alot of 15+ year old milspec & multi fuel 3 cylinder Envirudes on RBI's because there is currently no comparable replacement. An aquaitence of mine has the local contract to service them and rebuilds up to 50 per year but Bombardier has recently stopped production and support for parts.

To get back to the main subject I don't think that a program that would contract to an off shore corperation using steel from India , plywood from China , Japanese heavy equiptment and Mexican labor is the way to jump start the US economy.

Last edited by seacapt; 09-07-2010 at 10:09 AM.
09-06-2010, 12:52 PM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by seacapt Quote

To get back to the main subject I don't think that a program that would contract to a Non US corperation using steel from India , plywood from China , Kubota heavy equiptment and Mexican labor is the way to jump start the US economy.
totally agree.....just not sure it's actually feasible....
O/T as an owner of a 1999 johnson 35hp I found the history (I knew part of it) of the collapse interesting...... even the usual protect the asset for further sales and screw the customer......
QuoteQuote:
So, when a large bankrupt corporation like OMG can announce that it wishes to expedite the sale of its assets "to retain their value and stature in the marketplace," but does not arrange for warranty continuity, consumers are given a clear message that they are on the outside, looking into a world of high finance that doesn't recognize their importance in terms of repeat business or brand loyalty.

This is particularly disconcerting to BoatU.S. Founder Richard Schwartz, who said, "The bankruptcy auction may satisfy OMG's creditors, but it does little or nothing for owners of OMG products. These are the people who gave OMG its lifeblood and profits year after year.

"A fund should be created by the bankruptcy court," said Schwartz, "to protect the consumers who purchased OMG products in good faith.
OMC Bankruptcy Sets Consumers Adrift | Boat/US Magazine | Find Articles at BNET
How are the new Evinrude v-tec's? We are sort of in the market for a 90hp to replace the 35 but of course I'm trying to bottom feed on one between say 2008 to present. Any particular years overly problematic? Freshwater of course...

09-06-2010, 01:50 PM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by seacapt Quote
Just read about the Obama proposal to stimulate the economy and create jobs with a government backed investment in highways , rail systems and airports.
At first I actually said now he's thinking but soon I had questions. I thought about the state backed Global Transpark here in NC which was a collossal failure (big airport sitting vacant) and previous federal funding for rail systems. Still maybe we can learn from the past.
One thing I would like to see if this program goes through is exclusive use of American materials , equiptment and labor. This is a subject that I feel very strongly about . If American tax dollars are being used American companies and workers should get the rewards. That is reinvestment. When tax dollars go to foriegn countries that is throwing money out the window. For example the cash for clunkers program should have only been for purchase of vehicles built by an American auto maker. So if this program is approved with stippulations that the work be done by American contractors using American materials , equiptment and labor it might in my personal opinion be the best thing Barry O has done so far.
What do you guys think?
BTW as a side to this idea... I am a marine mechanic with many years of experience and training on all brands of outboard motors. It really pisses me off when I see U.S. millitary boats with Honda outboards on the back.
There is actually a Federally accepted standard for how many materials "should" be purchased domestically for certain public projects--including the billions to be spent from Obama's initial incentive/recovery initiative.

It can hardly be considered mandatory in the real sense of the word because it's hardly monitored or enforced, domestic producers lie and use foreign goods anyway, and the biggest kicker of all:

It only "has" to be like 60% domestic and 40% foreign.

Last edited by Ira; 09-06-2010 at 01:56 PM.
09-06-2010, 04:31 PM   #6
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It sounds like more short term political spending cocaine. Long term real improvements to industry are needed. Rail and light rail systems seem to be a financial bust or a long term financial (tax) anchor after completed. My impression is none of them pay thier own way. After they are built the cash cocaine wears off. Then we look for another gubmnt fix. Anyone smell bacon? We really need about 20 more Murtha International Airports about now financed by China.

On an edit: Who the hell is traveling now, tourism is about on it's butt.
09-06-2010, 07:19 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by seacapt Quote
....... Still maybe we can learn from the past.
......
Ken, you are either typing in your sleep, or you are dreaming while awake.
09-06-2010, 11:40 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by seacapt Quote
Just read about the Obama proposal to stimulate the economy and create jobs with a government backed investment in highways , rail systems and airports.
I am an outsider in all possible meanings of the word. But I think you're right that if there is a big government supported project, the local labor should be used. If it turns out that there is need in something that local economy cannot produce (which is probably impossible in case of USA), then foreign help may be needed. However it will be beneficial in mid to long term to insist on using local materials and labor. IMHO, of course.

09-07-2010, 07:09 AM   #9
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Other aspects of infrastructure to consider -
- the idea that transport of goods and people is good and necessary for the economy in the long run, one that's been shown several times in the past
- these jobs are traditional construction and engineering jobs, by and large... as such perhaps a life support on the hollowed out portion of US business, or perhaps in the better sense, a stop gap until these workers may be employed by industry with private capital

Certainly construction employs people who cannot be offshore, regardless of where the materials come from. But if the materials were sourced domestically, obviously we'd get even more bang for the buck.
09-07-2010, 07:23 AM   #10
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Given that we are coming out of recovery summer with higher unemployment than we entered it with, I would say no this is a bad idea.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
Albert Einstein

Insanity is about par for the course when it comes to democratic economic policy.
09-09-2010, 03:19 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by seacapt Quote
I don't think that a program that would contract to an off shore corperation using steel from India , plywood from China , Japanese heavy equiptment and Mexican labor is the way to jump start the US economy.
Have to agree with you capt'n, cant think of any other country that has implemented
any sort of economic plan based on american products. No, they let us finance it.
Seems to be by-partisan thing
Wall street's induced depression has enabled buisness to lower labor cost and will
continue to do so, what little choice have we? We have to feed our families.
Dont see it coming from the Tea party, nothing but big buisness in bib overalls,
trying to sound 'homey'
09-09-2010, 10:38 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
Given that we are coming out of recovery summer with higher unemployment than we entered it with, I would say no this is a bad idea.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
Albert Einstein

Insanity is about par for the course when it comes to democratic economic policy.
So we go back to the approach that got us here for the last 30 years?
09-09-2010, 01:47 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
So we go back to the approach that got us here for the last 30 years?
No, silly! We keep the Bush tax cuts - that's only 10 years - and this time we actually cut government spending. You know, govt layoffs. Only problem is, when the rubber hits the road it's a rare Republican who actually has the courage to cut spending, especially when it will cost votes.

But back to the budget cuts. Direct layoffs, or indirect via cutting state aid forcing the states to cut. And welfare type cuts, so the laid off get less benefits. And the roll-back of Obamacare. So there's more uninsured. But this is all balanced by the mass deportation of 12 million illegal immigrants - think of how many people doing this will employ! How many transport viehicles, detection and detention devices, jails, and so on we'll need. Good for the economy. Oh, and we'd need to beef up social security admin and other national and state bureaucracies to check everyone's credentials. But it can be done! [insert irony here: won't we be spending more than ever... oh never mind, this is FREE because it is paid for by TAX CUTS and the elimination of illegal freeloaders...]

So there's more laid off workers, who probably aren't fit for private enterprise, being lazy govt employees. And all those govt contracts to small businesses will be cancelled, so more layoffs there. Ditto for large businesses.

But somehow this will force/entice the private sector to grow and hire like crazy. But only after we give them a few more tax cuts...
09-09-2010, 05:30 PM   #14
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You can never improve the economy with more govt. spending. It has to be private spending to have any improvement. Sadly look at Japan and you will see us in twenty years.....so sad and if they would only let the economy balance itself instead of stimulating it and dragging it out.
09-10-2010, 06:33 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
Given that we are coming out of recovery summer with higher unemployment than we entered it with, I would say no this is a bad idea.

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
Albert Einstein

Insanity is about par for the course when it comes to democratic economic policy.
They have an economic policy?
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