[bombo]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/28/us/28religion.html?_r=1&src=ISMR_HP_LO_MST_FB

“I have heard many times that atheists know more about religion than religious people,” Mr. Silverman said. “Atheism is an effect of that knowledge, not a lack of knowledge. I gave a Bible to my daughter. That’s how you make atheists.”

[Spex]

It's true. I became atheist when I started to read and learn more about religion

[GeneV]

I find it hard to believe that so many Jews did not know Maimonides was Jewish. The rest is pretty consistent with my experience.

I don't share my own beliefs on the internet, but I will say that decades ago when I undertook a more intense study, which included the history around religion as well as the text and translation, my beliefs did change.

[Boris]

Rambam was Jewish all right... As a matter of fact, I knew him under name Rambam and learned that it means "Rabbi Moshe Ben Maimon" (Rabbi Moshe son of Maimon) or Maimonides later.

[GeneV]

Certainly no one who has visited the old Jewish quarter of Cordoba would forget him.

The number of Roman Catholics who don't know about transubstantiation is a bit of a shocker as well.

[mikemike]

Some quotes from Religilous:

Jeremiah Cummings: [a Christian reverend] Okay, but now, but now, things like houses and cars and clothes and money, they come as a result of my seeking God first.
Bill Maher: I don't remember that in the New Testament specifically.
[a subtitle appears - "Because it's not there."]
Jeremiah Cummings: But it's there.
[Subtitle - "No it's not."]
Jeremiah Cummings: I remember it.
Bill Maher: A passage about...
Jeremiah Cummings: I remember it.
[Subtitle - "I'm sure you do."]
Bill Maher: The houses, the cars and the clothes, they'll come.

Bill Maher: I know what you're thinking. I'm standing in front of a green screen at a studio in Burbank, California, and they digitized the Vatican in behind me. No, no, that's really the Vatican. I ought to know. I just got thrown out of it. See, I wanted to interview the Pope, but I was willing to settle for a cardinal or a monsignor, or the flying nun - really anybody, but apparently I've been on the Catholic shit list for quite a while. But that's their loss, 'cause now I'm gonna say what I *really* think, which is mainly:
[referring to the Vatican]
Bill Maher: does that look like anything Jesus Christ had in mind?
[to Father Reginald Foster, a Senior Vatican Priest]
Bill Maher: When you look at a building like that, a giant palace, does it seem at odds with the message of the founder?
Reginald Foster: Well, certainly.
Bill Maher: [giggles] Well, thank you.
Reginald Foster: I mean, that's obvious.
Bill Maher: It really is obvious, isn't it? But does it bother you?
Reginald Foster: [stammering] Well, I mean - well, yes it does. I wouldn't - if I were the boss, I wouldn't be living there.

Bill Maher: The standard doctrine that I was taught as a kid...
Reginald Foster: Yeah, that's all gone. That's all finished.

Bill Maher: See, this is my problem, I'm trying - I mean, you're - you're a Senator. You are one of the very few people who are really running this country. It worries me that people are running my country who think - who believe in a talking snake. Um...
Mark Pryor: [Arkansas' Democratic Senator] You don't have to pass an IQ test to be in the Senate, though.

Bill Maher: But it's not really a wise list of the ten. The first four are about just worshiping God, and, basically, a jealous god. And he doesn't want you to have any other gods. The only two that are really laws are: don't steal and don't kill. Why is this the wisest group of ten that doesn't include child abuse; it doesn't include don't torture; it doesn't include a lot of things, rape, that, I think, if I were making a list today, we would probably include.
Mark Pryor: [Arkansas' Democratic Senator] Society is so different today. Our society is so radically different...
Bill Maher: And that's what I'm asking. We're in a different culture. Can you think of anything else that we still cleave to from the Bronze Age?
Mark Pryor: Well...
[speechless]

Himself (Bachman, Tal): [an ex-Mormon] In the founding scriptures, you open the doctrine covenant, you read the autobiography of Joseph Smith. He quotes Jesus Christ as telling him that every other creed on Earth is, quote, an abomination. That's not a very ecumenical statement.

Bill Maher: The idea that Christianity is American, I think, is an amazing entitlement to a people who are always trying to meld God and country.
Himself (Gardiner, Bill (V)): The Garden of Eden was in Missouri, according to Mormonism. The new Jerusalem will be there.
Bill Maher: Branson, I hope.

Bill Maher: Who are you?
Jose Luis De Jesus Miranda: I am Jesus Christ man. The second coming. The Old Testament talk about me clearly. And the New Testament also.

Jose Luis De Jesus Miranda: You know, if I discover that I was Satan in person, I would do a good job, too.
Bill Maher: As Satan?
Jose Luis De Jesus Miranda: Because I would be faithful to my calling.
Bill Maher: It's how you do your work, isn't it? You know, at the end of the day, whether you're the messiah or you're Satan, it's loving what you do and giving it a hundred percent.
Jose Luis De Jesus Miranda: I give hundred percent.

Bill Maher: Now, the angels went to the house of the one Godly man in town - Lot. And the townspeople tried to rape them. Now, Lot, not wanting his town to get the reputation as the kind of place that would rape angels, offered up to the mob his own daughters to rape. And he was the good guy in town. Which brings me to this question: If I ever had to swear an oath, why would I want to put my hand on the King James Bible? I think I could find more morality in the Rick James Bible.

You could learn more about religion by watching an atheist for 2 hours than you can going to church, mosque, or temple every week for your entire life. Maybe atheists just have better memories.

[MRRiley]

I was wondering if this would pop up. I tend to believe the findings. Most athiests, agnostics or irreligious people I know came to that state after studying the teachings of their childhood faiths and finding inconsistencies (actual or perceived) and decided that they could not believe the dogma. This was certainly the case for me.

Afterall, how many religious christians know that Jesus' common "last name" was barJoseph (meaning Son of Joseph (note that God doesn't get credit here or he would have been called barYahweh)). The funny part of this is that the man commonly referred to simply as barAbbas that Pilate released instead of Jesus barJoseph was also a Jesus... Jesus barAbbas... Jesus Son of Abbas...

[GeneV]

I was wondering if this would pop up. I tend to believe the findings. Most athiests, agnostics or irreligious people I know came to that state after studying the teachings of their childhood faiths and finding inconsistencies (actual or perceived) and decided that they could not believe the dogma. This was certainly the case for me.

Afterall, how many religious christians know that Jesus' common "last name" was barJoseph (meaning Son of Joseph (note that God doesn't get credit here or he would have been called barYahweh)). The funny part of this is that the man commonly referred to simply as barAbbas that Pilate released instead of Jesus barJoseph was also a Jesus... Jesus barAbbas... Jesus Son of Abbas...

The play on words with Barabbas is even more interesting. Abba means father. Bar-Abbas means son of "the father." Abba was Jesus' word for God and often appears in versions of the bible untranslated in Jesus' prayers. Pilate may have been actually asking whether to release Jesus "the son of God," and the the Jewish people may have actually asked that he be released. But then that would place the blame for his death on the Romans in power at the time the bible was assembled (instead of the Jews), and we couldn't have that.

[JohnBee]

I was wondering if this would pop up. I tend to believe the findings. Most athiests, agnostics or irreligious people I know came to that state after studying the teachings of their childhood faiths and finding inconsistencies (actual or perceived) and decided that they could not believe the dogma. This was certainly the case for me.

I think this depends on how serious people get with there research.
In my own case, I started reading a common English bible(KJV) and found it to be rather confusing. So I decided to try my hand at some of the older texts(greek interlinear etc) and found things began to make much more sense.

The same could be said for the OT writings too. And though we don't have much to go on with respect to original documents, there are some fairly good projects and material that tie in with the DSS and various canons also.

Having said that, I've found many of the classic English translations to be too confusing or flat our wrong with respect to content to put much faith in them.
However, some of the newer revisions(Young etc,) seem to of taken care of many of these issues though most of them carry some pretty outrageous edits in them(see God's personal name etc).

Anyways, I'd like to think that the entire affair is rather positive considering the clutter of religious enterprise in our day. At least... if someone is committed, they can still effectively dig in and get to the bottom of things if they so chose too.

[MRRiley]

I think this depends on how serious people get with there research.
In my own case, I started reading a common English bible(KJV) and found it to be rather confusing. So I decided to try my hand at some of the older texts(greek interlinear etc) and found things began to make much more sense.

The same could be said for the OT writings too. And though we don't have much to go on with respect to original documents, there are some fairly good projects and material that tie in with the DSS and various canons also.

Having said that, I've found many of the classic English translations to be too confusing or flat our wrong with respect to content to put much faith in them.
However, some of the newer revisions(Young etc,) seem to of taken care of many of these issues though most of them carry some pretty outrageous edits in them(see God's personal name etc).

Anyways, I'd like to think that the entire affair is rather positive considering the clutter of religious enterprise in our day. At least... if someone is committed, they can still effectively dig in and get to the bottom of things if they so chose too.

John,

The trouble is there are a distressingly large number of people who believe that the KJV Bible is the literal and inviolate "word of god." It's almost as if they believe that god's natural language is olde english... Heck maybe this caters to their anglo saxon sense of superiority.

I studied several OT books in hebrew while I was in college (don't ask me to remember any of it now... that was 30 years ago) and you are right, things tend to be much more consistent... but it also becomes clear that much of the material is either borrowed from other/older cultures or are metaphorical stories with little if any factual historical basis.

Mike

[tmj41765]

Your either chosen or not. Sorry.
But I'm sure in your Bible studies you know what that's all about.

---------- Post added 09-28-10 at 05:41 PM ----------

Oh, one other thing, nobody on earth knows more of God, Christ, & the Holy Spirit than Satan. Sounds like you guys are proud that he has friends!

[MRRiley]

Your either chosen or not. Sorry.
But I'm sure in your Bible studies you know what that's all about.

---------- Post added 09-28-10 at 05:41 PM ----------

Oh, one other thing, nobody on earth knows more of God, Christ, & the Holy Spirit than Satan. Sounds like you guys are proud that he has friends!

Well, I know that's what the bible claims, but since there is no empirical and verifiable independant evidence of it's claims, it all comes down to faith (or lack thereof). You either believe it is true or you believe it is untrue.

You, as a believer, naturally believe that my disbelief means I am "not chosen" while I, as an unbeliever, see neither a reason to be "chosen" nor the existence of a diety (or arch demon) to do said chosing.

Mike

p.s. and you cannot use the bible to verify itself... A statement that the the bible says it is the word of god thus it IS the word of god is logically unsupportable.

[JohnBee]

p.s. and you cannot use the bible to verify itself... A statement that the the bible says it is the word of god thus it IS the word of god is logically unsupportable.

I think that's a condition which stems(mostly) from a misuse of terms. As far as I can see, I'd say the issue begins where the bible is/was never intended to be empirical. That is to say, that within context, the bible is a proposal from which people would then evaluate and "choose" whether or not they accept it's message.

However, when I see people either criticizing the lack thereof proof and/or verifiable evidence with reference to the bible, I am reminded that there is a great deal of people out there who are not aware of what the bible is.

Interestingly enough, this same principle addresses the earlier statement of "being chosen" also. However, I'm thinking perhaps the OP intended to mean personal choice rather than being chosen(which would make more sense).

But hey... there are so many beliefs out there, that it's near impossible to know anymore

---------- Post added 09-28-10 at 10:48 PM ----------

but it also becomes clear that much of the material is either borrowed from other/older cultures or are metaphorical stories with little if any factual historical basis.

I'd like to think that I've explored a good deal of data, though I didn't get this feeling with the Christian scriptures per say. And though there is no denying the consistent following of doctrines throughout the ages. My own research lead to the fact that there isn't much with respect to worship past the Sumerian people.

However... what's interesting about the bible is that it was not written at that time either. However monotheistic worship was inevitably at the root of it all. And though this doesn't bring any assurances to the issue or veritability, it does end-up playing along with the claims of early biblical texts.

So for me, the Christian bible was well positioned to warrant investigating.

[GeneV]

Your either chosen or not. Sorry.
But I'm sure in your Bible studies you know what that's all about.

Oh, one other thing, nobody on earth knows more of God, Christ, & the Holy Spirit than Satan. Sounds like you guys are proud that he has friends!

So, you are saying the more someone knows about the Bible, the more likely it is that they are friends of Satan?

[MRRiley]

So, you are saying the more someone knows about the Bible, the more likely it is that they are friends of Satan?

Knowledge can be a dangerous thing Gene. That is why those in power generally prefer that their followers/subjects/citizens remain "dumb, fat and happy."

Remember Bread and Circuses!