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10-11-2010, 11:35 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by joodiespost Quote
Let's not get Truth mixed up with a personal standard of measurement.
So, then, what are we talking about? Maybe that's what these 'absolutes' proposed *are:* Standards of measurement. Personal or shared.

Of course, if we were to *find* the 'absolutely true' statement about something, who's 'The greatest poet?'

Obviously Muhammad Ali: not only was he a poet, but who took issue when he said, 'I am the Greatest!'

It's a regular Song of Amergin, there.


Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 10-11-2010 at 11:42 AM.
10-11-2010, 01:02 PM   #32
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I'll try again:

Any statement that can be made is maybe partly true and maybe partly false and maybe partly unknowable. And maybe partly trivial and maybe partly irrelevant.

And that's the truth.

Maybe.
10-11-2010, 01:28 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by 65535 Quote
List some truths that you believe are absolute, please.
It is a fixed, invariable, unalterable fact that there are absolutely no square circles and there are absolutely no round squares.

This is sophomoric.

woof!
10-11-2010, 01:31 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
I'll try again:

Any statement that can be made is maybe partly true and maybe partly false and maybe partly unknowable. And maybe partly trivial and maybe partly irrelevant.

And that's the truth.

Maybe.
And that's a contradiction. You telling us "that's the truth" is an absolute statement which is supposed to be true. Therefore, it is an absolute truth and "There are no absolute truths" is false. There are such things as absolutes. There are also things that are relative, but if everything were relative then it would be absolutely true that everything is relative, and that would be self-refuting. So saying that everything is relative can’t be true. Likewise, if everything were absolutely true, then we couldn’t have such things as personal preferences or things that change. Relative truths can be things dependent upon each person.

Another couple more truths I would like to bring up.
Seven is always greaten than Six.
It's always true that something cannot bring itself into existence.

10-11-2010, 02:30 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by joodiespost Quote
hehe ^_^ you see, I have no problems with some things being relative and subjective. These are open for personal debates. But I believe Truth is not relative. It's actually redundant to call truth absolute because truth is absolute. Francis Schaeffer once called it true truth and found that to be redundant as well. Let's not get Truth mixed up with a personal standard of measurement.
That depends on who you ask. Just look at some of the responses in this thread. I have to wonder sometimes what induces the meaning of truth in some people's minds. Medical Marijuana?

10-11-2010, 03:06 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by woof Quote
It is a fixed, invariable, unalterable fact that there are absolutely no square circles and there are absolutely no round squares.

This is sophomoric.

woof!
However, one can pound a square peg into a round hole.
10-11-2010, 03:28 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by joodiespost Quote
And that's a contradiction.
Sorry, I neglected the [irony] tag.

QuoteQuote:
Seven is always greaten than Six.
Is seven pounds greater than six kilograms?
Is 7 on the X axis greater than 6 on the Y axis?

I know, that's apples'n'oranges. Try this:

Are 7 errors greater than 6 errors?
10-11-2010, 03:39 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
Sorry, I neglected the [irony] tag.



Is seven pounds greater than six kilograms?
Is 7 on the X axis greater than 6 on the Y axis?

I know, that's apples'n'oranges. Try this:

Are 7 errors greater than 6 errors?
hahaha okay, so we established that there are absolute truths.


Last edited by joodiespost; 10-11-2010 at 04:19 PM.
10-11-2010, 04:18 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by JeffJS Quote
That depends on who you ask. Just look at some of the responses in this thread. I have to wonder sometimes what induces the meaning of truth in some people's minds. Medical Marijuana?

Personally, truth is the most defining reality in my life. to know the truth and to live in it. Frankly, i'm a bit shocked that there were no mention of God in the equation. Can truth exist apart from God? Without an eternal ominicent, and omnipotent God who created this reality, this universe, as the source, as an objetive standard, everyone can do what's "right" in their own minds including Hitler and Stalin and we have no say in that whatsoever. It might be wrong for us but it was right for them. Take the suicide bombers for example, if there were no absolute truths then what they did was indeed right in their sight and they should keep on blowing themselves up. But it's not. What these men did were wrong morally to it's core. Morality, Truth and God, now we're talking
10-11-2010, 04:49 PM   #40
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This thread has no place in the "general talk" forum, it belongs in *that* other forum. That's the truth.
10-11-2010, 04:59 PM - 2 Likes   #41
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I'm my eyes Byron, but I'm sure others would choose Shakespeare etc.

I say Byron because of his overall cultural impact. He's influenced the arts and pop culture in so many directions beyond the scope of his original work that he's become a spiritual icon/influence of sorts. Shakespeare's poetry on the other hand takes a definite backseat to his plays though in his own way his influence as a playwright is as wide as Byron's, more so even.

Despite the fact that there are probably more copies of Shakespeare's Complete Works out there than Byron's people who probably couldn't quote a Shakespeare poem to save their lives can and do often quote Byron's "She Walks In Beauty."

Byron is still the "rock star" of poetry. Among others he influenced The Doors, the Beatles, and the Moody Blues, probably dozens of other poets and writers who came after him and even today interest in his life and works is so strong it almost eclipses that of the other poets of his day.

Shelly, his contemporary and his friend may get one new bio every 5-10 years, but seldom does a year or two go by where someone is not touting new theories on Byron, his life, sexuality, his work. Byronmania is not only alive and well nearly 200 years after the poet's death it's flourishing.

I feel truth is both relative when it comes to opinions and liking, and absolute when it comes to something that can be easily proven by science. No one can deny gravity exists and I think few would try, that's an absolute proof in our universe, but whether or not one religion has the answer versus another, that's a relative truth and can only be based upon the opinion and beliefs of the person being asked. Every religious group out there wants to think that they alone "know" God, but I have to challenge any religion that states their religion has all the answers.

To me it's just absurd for us humans to think that we can truly know the mind of a being or beings that created something as large as our universe. That's like asking a fly on the wall to "know" us as individual persons with all our likes and dislikes, something which is probably far beyond it's limited scope of comprehension.

A fly would only see our physicality as it pertains to it's life cycle, in terms of it's food needs, and our taking up part of it's space. It can't know our beliefs, our hopes, our humanity anymore than we can truly step down to it's level and understand what it is to be a simple little fly.

We're likely the flies in the universe of what ever created us. "God" is probably to us what we are to a fly. We'd like to think we "get" what created us, what it's like, what it's design is for this universe and us, but likely we can't really know. We're simply not at a level of being that even compares to that of whatever created us. But we feel the need for rules, an explanation, a label, a face for "God" so we give "God" one, as best as we can.

That's not absolute truth though. That's relative truth and it changes quite frequently over time as we grow and mature and learn that our old ideas in that direction simply aren't enough to describe the Ultimate Truth of what made us. If it wasn't so? We'd still be living as as we were 5000 years ago and we'd be drawing pictures of "Gods" with animal heads and such, not reaching upward and outward to a more faceless, dogma-less divinity with every new day.

There's a reason so many traditional religions are losing members rapidly. Many people are outgrowing "religion" as they know it. They still want the connection to the Divine, and a sense of spirituality, but they're also heartily sick of the rules and elitist attitudes of the major religions. They want something else and they're not nearly as afraid of leaving and going out to find it anymore. They want to find their "own" truth no matter what the religions of their birth might say and a lot of people just simply don't believe in absolute truth when it comes to religion anymore.

QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Then who is the greatest poet of all time?
10-11-2010, 08:26 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by twitch Quote
This thread has no place in the "general talk" forum, it belongs in *that* other forum. That's the truth.
Well, fortunately thus far we've managed to steer clear from both political and religious discussions (done well, folks), so it's probably right on track.

So truth claim debunked!
10-11-2010, 08:35 PM   #43
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magkelly,

bigthumbsup and + Reps for the effort on that one!

Edit: I would probably answer that question differently every day depending on the situation.
10-11-2010, 10:20 PM   #44
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Good points magkelly.
QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote

We're likely the flies in the universe of what ever created us. "God" is probably to us what we are to a fly. We'd like to think we "get" what created us, what it's like, what it's design is for this universe and us, but likely we can't really know. We're simply not at a level of being that even compares to that of whatever created us. But we feel the need for rules, an explanation, a label, a face for "God" so we give "God" one, as best as we can.
And for those very reasons it's futile trying to prove or disprove existence of something we don't have the ability to comprehend ourselves, let alone rationally define.

QuoteQuote:

There's a reason so many traditional religions are losing members rapidly. Many people are outgrowing "religion" as they know it. They still want the connection to the Divine, and a sense of spirituality, but they're also heartily sick of the rules and elitist attitudes of the major religions. They want something else and they're not nearly as afraid of leaving and going out to find it anymore. They want to find their "own" truth no matter what the religions of their birth might say and a lot of people just simply don't believe in absolute truth when it comes to religion anymore.
Right on. Newer generations are finding religion to be so closed minded, unjustifiably restrictive and irrelevant. For good reason too.

Truths exist regardless of what we mortals believe in or is collaboratively decided upon by some religious organisations.
10-11-2010, 10:49 PM   #45
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I guess at this point I might say that I'm a Christian. And I do apologize if I stepped on some toes. The truth is everything to a Christian and I am no exception. It is the truth that saves, truth that sets us free and ultimately truth that gets us to heaven. It is something I am very passionate about.

QuoteQuote:
To me it's just absurd for us humans to think that we can truly know the mind of a being or beings that created something as large as our universe. That's like asking a fly on the wall to "know" us as individual persons with all our likes and dislikes, something which is probably far beyond it's limited scope of comprehension.
I appreciate your indept answer. I'd go a step furthur and say it's like two flies discussing human anatomy. I wholly agree with that statement you made above. I've heard many people say what they think about God. But any opinion that man has about God is irrelevant. Man cannot know God, no matter how hard he tries. He can't know God because he cannot escape the confines of a natural existence and leap into the supernatural dimension. True wisdom, ultimate truth regarding God, man's destiny, and salvation is not known to man's mind. Yet all the religions of the world are efforts on the part of man to find God.

QuoteQuote:
We're likely the flies in the universe of what ever created us. "God" is probably to us what we are to a fly. We'd like to think we "get" what created us, what it's like, what it's design is for this universe and us, but likely we can't really know. We're simply not at a level of being that even compares to that of whatever created us. But we feel the need for rules, an explanation, a label, a face for "God" so we give "God" one, as best as we can.
As mentioned, Christianity teaches that we can't find God and that He finds us. In Luke it says "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. " You mentioned, we are not able to transcend our system. Paul in Romans tells us that ultimate truth is outside the boundaries of the wisdom and the philosophers of this era. If human wisdom cannot find God, then the only way man can know God is for God to reveal Himself to man. In Hosea, it says this, "For I desired mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." In other words, that's what pleases God. For us to know Him.

QuoteQuote:
That's not absolute truth though. That's relative truth and it changes quite frequently over time as we grow and mature and learn that our old ideas in that direction simply aren't enough to describe the Ultimate Truth of what made us. If it wasn't so? We'd still be living as as we were 5000 years ago and we'd be drawing pictures of "Gods" with animal heads and such, not reaching upward and outward to a more faceless, dogma-less divinity with every new day.
Historic orthodox Christianity down to it's roots in Judaism never worshiped an animal nor any creature. There's a verse in Romans that goes like this. "For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator" Idol worshiping is as old as the Bible. [All the way to Genesis] But you're right, those "concepts" of God by many religions outside Christianity indeed may have gone through many changes. But Scripture teaches that the truth of God is not subject to change. Much less by worldly opinions. Though our understanding of the truth can be refined and sharpened by study of the Scripture, truth does not change.

QuoteQuote:
There's a reason so many traditional religions are losing members rapidly. Many people are outgrowing "religion" as they know it. They still want the connection to the Divine, and a sense of spirituality, but they're also heartily sick of the rules and elitist attitudes of the major religions. They want something else and they're not nearly as afraid of leaving and going out to find it anymore. They want to find their "own" truth no matter what the religions of their birth might say and a lot of people just simply don't believe in absolute truth when it comes to religion anymore.
Someone once said we all have a God shaped vacuum in our hearts. And that is absolutely true. Because our deepest longings and desires can only be satisfied by God. But when God of the Bible is mentioned in all His full attributes such as justice and wrath over sin, people run. No natural man wants a moral judge over their lives. And hence we shape and mold God to our likings. Without God, there is no objective standard of measurement as to what is right and what is wrong. Everyone is free to do whatever they please. It is amazing to see the world philosophies in all it's stages lead up to what we have today. Modernism, postmodernism, moral relativism, atheism. And I know that our Christian message is directly in contradiction to the reigning philosophy of today. But the most loving thing a Christian can do is to proclaim the truth.

I hope you guys understand that my relationship with God is very important to me and I just can't be indifferent to it. And I really believe that the knowledge of God revealed to us in the Bible is the key to everything that matters. Why we're made, where do we come from, where we are going. I'm not saying I have answers to everything. If my monitor breaks down just becaues I'm a Christian doesn't mean I can fix it.
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