So my 2 Part Question - Is there absolute truth and who decides.

**Ash** · 10-11-2010, 11:12 PM

OK, we've now delved into religious discussion, so I may need to take back my previous comment, twitch.

Nevertheless, it's near impossible to discuss truths beyond the basics of what we see in the flesh without recognising supernatural influences in the world at play.

Open confession of faith in Jesus may be something you live by, joodiespost, but just be weary that such proclamation is seldomly appreciated in a secular public forum. That shouldn't matter, but unsolicited 'preaching' can have sequelae you may not want. To you and I, the Bible is light, love, hope and the eternal word of God, but to many others, it's just a book of powerless words.

On topic, though, biblical truths exist, whether one likes to think of them as pre-existing the Bible or as coming from God, and our choices in life determine what consequences we get according to those truths.

joodiespost · 10-12-2010, 12:06 AM

Im with you there. It is extremely difficult to discuss these issues without ultimately falling on God. Though Christianity is what I believe, I respect others who earnestly contest for their own faith. But as ecumenical as I'd like to be, Scripture teaches otherwise. And as much as I don't want to sound imposing, that's just the nature of such conversations. And I assure you I am not. And as majority of people believe in something, I don't think it hurts to talk about God once in a while even in a secular "Off topic" forum.

I'm always up to debate these theological issues and if Roman Catholics, Jews, Islam, or Hindu's want to join in please feel free. I'd like to hear your position on truth and God as well. Gn guys!

MRRiley · 10-12-2010, 07:39 AM

I'm getting dizzy! around and around and around we go...

RoxnDox · 10-12-2010, 09:36 AM

About the only Absolute Truth that *might* get agreement in here is "The universe exists". We seem to be arguing about everything else... You'd think this was the P&R mudpit.

Jim

magkelly · 10-12-2010, 10:08 AM

No, I'm fine with you being whatever works for you, but quoting a "holy book" and it's verses at me and in doing so aiming to define what "God" wants is the antithesis of the point I was making. You think that as a Christian you know the truth as it is revealed in your holy book, but I honestly can't even comprehend limiting "God" in that way. Whatever created us does reveal itself to us all the time, sure, through it's work, our universe, but the whole sin, salvation, son of God thing, I'm sorry but that's just human mythology at work. Popular human mythology, some of our best I think, but it's still mythology all the same.

I just can't base my life upon any "holy book" and I absolutely refuse to grovel and "worship" the "God" of the major religions. To me that "God" is very little different from the jealous and often far too human gods of our collective human past. If I have to do "this" or be "that" to measure up to deserve God's love and avoid punishment then I simply don't want it. That's not a "God" that deserves my love, period.

My idea of "God" is about as far from what the Christians, Muslim and Jewish "holy books" teach as it gets. I've studied all of those religions and more in depth and yet I've still never been able to understand why so many people follow them or that "God" so fervently.

No insult intended I just don't particularly like or respect that version of "God" very much at all. The Bible, Koran, Talmud, etc are on the shelf, but only as reference manuals to human myth. I just don't think that "God" is revealed in them nearly so much as humankind is.

Originally posted by joodiespost

I guess at this point I might say that I'm a Christian. And I do apologize if I stepped on some toes. The truth is everything to a Christian and I am no exception. It is the truth that saves, truth that sets us free and ultimately truth that gets us to heaven. It is something I am very passionate about.

I appreciate your indept answer. I'd go a step furthur and say it's like two flies discussing human anatomy.

I wholly agree with that statement you made above. I've heard many people say what they think about God. But any opinion that man has about God is irrelevant. Man cannot know God, no matter how hard he tries. He can't know God because he cannot escape the confines of a natural existence and leap into the supernatural dimension. True wisdom, ultimate truth regarding God, man's destiny, and salvation is not known to man's mind. Yet all the religions of the world are efforts on the part of man to find God.

As mentioned, Christianity teaches that we can't find God and that He finds us. In Luke it says "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. " You mentioned, we are not able to transcend our system. Paul in Romans tells us that ultimate truth is outside the boundaries of the wisdom and the philosophers of this era. If human wisdom cannot find God, then the only way man can know God is for God to reveal Himself to man. In Hosea, it says this, "For I desired mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." In other words, that's what pleases God. For us to know Him.

Historic orthodox Christianity down to it's roots in Judaism never worshiped an animal nor any creature. There's a verse in Romans that goes like this. "For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator" Idol worshiping is as old as the Bible. [All the way to Genesis] But you're right, those "concepts" of God by many religions outside Christianity indeed may have gone through many changes. But Scripture teaches that the truth of God is not subject to change. Much less by worldly opinions. Though our understanding of the truth can be refined and sharpened by study of the Scripture, truth does not change.

Someone once said we all have a God shaped vacuum in our hearts. And that is absolutely true. Because our deepest longings and desires can only be satisfied by God. But when God of the Bible is mentioned in all His full attributes such as justice and wrath over sin, people run. No natural man wants a moral judge over their lives. And hence we shape and mold God to our likings. Without God, there is no objective standard of measurement as to what is right and what is wrong. Everyone is free to do whatever they please. It is amazing to see the world philosophies in all it's stages lead up to what we have today. Modernism, postmodernism, moral relativism, atheism. And I know that our Christian message is directly in contradiction to the reigning philosophy of today. But the most loving thing a Christian can do is to proclaim the truth.

I hope you guys understand that my relationship with God is very important to me and I just can't be indifferent to it. And I really believe that the knowledge of God revealed to us in the Bible is the key to everything that matters. Why we're made, where do we come from, where we are going. I'm not saying I have answers to everything. If my monitor breaks down just becaues I'm a Christian doesn't mean I can fix it.

MRRiley · 10-12-2010, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by RoxnDox

About the only Absolute Truth that *might* get agreement in here is "The universe exists". We seem to be arguing about everything else... You'd think this was the P&R mudpit.

Jim

But does it really exist Jim? We could all be a figment of your imagination... or y'all of mine...

Mike

MRRiley · 10-12-2010, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by magkelly

My idea of "God" is about as far from what the Christians, Muslim and Jewish "holy books" teach as it gets. I've studied all of those religions and more in depth and yet I've still never been able to understand why so many people follow them or that "God" so fervently.

You really need to read, if you havn't already done so, Samuel Clemens' "Letters From the Earth."

Mike

**Ash** · 10-12-2010, 12:59 PM

Ah, good ol' Mark Twain...

“ The Creator sat upon the throne, thinking. Behind him stretched the illimitable continent of heaven, steeped in a glory of light and color; before him rose the black night of Space, like a wall. His mighty bulk towered rugged and mountain-like into the zenith, and His divine head blazed there like a distant sun. At His feet stood three colossal figures, diminished to extinction, almost, by contrast -- archangels -- their heads level with His ankle-bone. ”

“ Man is a marvelous curiosity. When he is at his very, very best he is a sort of low grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm. ”

“ He took a pride in man; man was his finest invention; man was his pet, after the housefly . . . . ”

“ It is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies. ”

Very clever and witty writer - and yet another example of searching for God and creating tales to try and explain His nature and justify his existence, damning every other explanation due to the fallacy of man. Why not? With no absolutes, it's just free reign isn't it? ("My idea of God is this..." "But my concept of God is that...")

MRRiley · 10-12-2010, 01:07 PM

The part I like Ash, is the part where Lucifer talks about the fact that most men can barely be persuaded to sit in church for an hour a week, much less sing during that hour... yet that same man is supremely sure that he is going to enjoy an eternity of singing one endless song in the biggest church in the universe... (paraphrased of course)

**Ash** · 10-12-2010, 01:28 PM

Originally posted by magkelly

No, I'm fine with you being whatever works for you, but quoting a "holy book" and it's verses at me and in doing so aiming to define what "God" wants is the antithesis of the point I was making. You think that as a Christian you know the truth as it is revealed in your holy book, but I honestly can't even comprehend limiting "God" in that way. Whatever created us does reveal itself to us all the time, sure, through it's work, our universe, but the whole sin, salvation, son of God thing, I'm sorry but that's just human mythology at work. Popular human mythology, some of our best I think, but it's still mythology all the same.

Is God really 'limited' in the Bible? If God is as mentioned in the Bible: love, mercy, compassion, and all those other things (don't bother with the argument that the Old Testament God was not loving etc. - see previously in https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/political-religious-discussion/78644-isla...tml#post861625), does the Bible place restriction on His omnipotence?

Quote:

I just can't base my life upon any "holy book" and I absolutely refuse to grovel and "worship" the "God" of the major religions. To me that "God" is very little different from the jealous and often far too human gods of our collective human past. If I have to do "this" or be "that" to measure up to deserve God's love and avoid punishment then I simply don't want it. That's not a "God" that deserves my love, period.

You don't have to measure up to any standard to earn God's love as in the Bible - that's the difference.

Quote:

My idea of "God" is about as far from what the Christians, Muslim and Jewish "holy books" teach as it gets. I've studied all of those religions and more in depth and yet I've still never been able to understand why so many people follow them or that "God" so fervently.

Then you haven't studied human behaviour.

We're creatures of habit and gravitate towards a structured life - some more than others. OCD personalities could easily find their niche in Islam.

But seriously, we're victims of our own demise, and until we surrender those aspects of our lives, we'll never appreciate any of God's grace upon us.

Quote:

No insult intended I just don't particularly like or respect that version of "God" very much at all. The Bible, Koran, Talmud, etc are on the shelf, but only as reference manuals to human myth. I just don't think that "God" is revealed in them nearly so much as humankind is.

None taken when you've put it like that.

I totally understand how so many people have a problem with the world's religious views on the concept of God. Imposing, restrictive, contradictory. And of course the Bible will be to the secular world. But none of this changes truth now, does it?

Parallax · 10-12-2010, 01:31 PM

Moved to P&R.

GeneV · 10-13-2010, 06:55 AM

And thread killed. Apparently P&R wants nothing to do with this subject, and those interested in this subject want nothing to do with P&R.

**Ash** · 10-13-2010, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by GeneV

And thread killed. Apparently P&R wants nothing to do with this subject, and those interested in this subject want nothing to do with P&R.

Sounds like common sense has prevailed.

Parallax · 10-13-2010, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by Ash

Sounds like common sense has prevailed.

How often does that ever happen?

Nesster · 10-13-2010, 02:34 PM

the problem is this is way too long a thread to read and, unless someone was advocating a mystical/buddhist/advaita belief, I'd probably be bored...

10-12-2010, 12:06 AM	#47
joodiespost Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 336 Original Poster	Im with you there. It is extremely difficult to discuss these issues without ultimately falling on God. Though Christianity is what I believe, I respect others who earnestly contest for their own faith. But as ecumenical as I'd like to be, Scripture teaches otherwise. And as much as I don't want to sound imposing, that's just the nature of such conversations. And I assure you I am not. And as majority of people believe in something, I don't think it hurts to talk about God once in a while even in a secular "Off topic" forum. I'm always up to debate these theological issues and if Roman Catholics, Jews, Islam, or Hindu's want to join in please feel free. I'd like to hear your position on truth and God as well. Gn guys! Last edited by joodiespost; 10-12-2010 at 12:12 AM.

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10-11-2010, 11:12 PM	#46
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	OK, we've now delved into religious discussion, so I may need to take back my previous comment, twitch. Nevertheless, it's near impossible to discuss truths beyond the basics of what we see in the flesh without recognising supernatural influences in the world at play. Open confession of faith in Jesus may be something you live by, joodiespost, but just be weary that such proclamation is seldomly appreciated in a secular public forum. That shouldn't matter, but unsolicited 'preaching' can have sequelae you may not want. To you and I, the Bible is light, love, hope and the eternal word of God, but to many others, it's just a book of powerless words. On topic, though, biblical truths exist, whether one likes to think of them as pre-existing the Bible or as coming from God, and our choices in life determine what consequences we get according to those truths.

10-12-2010, 07:39 AM	#48
MRRiley Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sterling, VA, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,275	I'm getting dizzy! around and around and around we go...

10-12-2010, 09:36 AM	#49
RoxnDox Pentaxian Join Date: May 2007 Location: Gig Harbor, Washington, USA, Terra Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 4,494	About the only Absolute Truth that might get agreement in here is "The universe exists". We seem to be arguing about everything else... You'd think this was the P&R mudpit. Jim

10-12-2010, 10:08 AM	#50
magkelly Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Photos: Gallery Posts: 5,901	No, I'm fine with you being whatever works for you, but quoting a "holy book" and it's verses at me and in doing so aiming to define what "God" wants is the antithesis of the point I was making. You think that as a Christian you know the truth as it is revealed in your holy book, but I honestly can't even comprehend limiting "God" in that way. Whatever created us does reveal itself to us all the time, sure, through it's work, our universe, but the whole sin, salvation, son of God thing, I'm sorry but that's just human mythology at work. Popular human mythology, some of our best I think, but it's still mythology all the same. I just can't base my life upon any "holy book" and I absolutely refuse to grovel and "worship" the "God" of the major religions. To me that "God" is very little different from the jealous and often far too human gods of our collective human past. If I have to do "this" or be "that" to measure up to deserve God's love and avoid punishment then I simply don't want it. That's not a "God" that deserves my love, period. My idea of "God" is about as far from what the Christians, Muslim and Jewish "holy books" teach as it gets. I've studied all of those religions and more in depth and yet I've still never been able to understand why so many people follow them or that "God" so fervently. No insult intended I just don't particularly like or respect that version of "God" very much at all. The Bible, Koran, Talmud, etc are on the shelf, but only as reference manuals to human myth. I just don't think that "God" is revealed in them nearly so much as humankind is. Originally posted by joodiespost I guess at this point I might say that I'm a Christian. And I do apologize if I stepped on some toes. The truth is everything to a Christian and I am no exception. It is the truth that saves, truth that sets us free and ultimately truth that gets us to heaven. It is something I am very passionate about. I appreciate your indept answer. I'd go a step furthur and say it's like two flies discussing human anatomy. I wholly agree with that statement you made above. I've heard many people say what they think about God. But any opinion that man has about God is irrelevant. Man cannot know God, no matter how hard he tries. He can't know God because he cannot escape the confines of a natural existence and leap into the supernatural dimension. True wisdom, ultimate truth regarding God, man's destiny, and salvation is not known to man's mind. Yet all the religions of the world are efforts on the part of man to find God. As mentioned, Christianity teaches that we can't find God and that He finds us. In Luke it says "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. " You mentioned, we are not able to transcend our system. Paul in Romans tells us that ultimate truth is outside the boundaries of the wisdom and the philosophers of this era. If human wisdom cannot find God, then the only way man can know God is for God to reveal Himself to man. In Hosea, it says this, "For I desired mercy and not sacrifice, and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." In other words, that's what pleases God. For us to know Him. Historic orthodox Christianity down to it's roots in Judaism never worshiped an animal nor any creature. There's a verse in Romans that goes like this. "For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator" Idol worshiping is as old as the Bible. [All the way to Genesis] But you're right, those "concepts" of God by many religions outside Christianity indeed may have gone through many changes. But Scripture teaches that the truth of God is not subject to change. Much less by worldly opinions. Though our understanding of the truth can be refined and sharpened by study of the Scripture, truth does not change. Someone once said we all have a God shaped vacuum in our hearts. And that is absolutely true. Because our deepest longings and desires can only be satisfied by God. But when God of the Bible is mentioned in all His full attributes such as justice and wrath over sin, people run. No natural man wants a moral judge over their lives. And hence we shape and mold God to our likings. Without God, there is no objective standard of measurement as to what is right and what is wrong. Everyone is free to do whatever they please. It is amazing to see the world philosophies in all it's stages lead up to what we have today. Modernism, postmodernism, moral relativism, atheism. And I know that our Christian message is directly in contradiction to the reigning philosophy of today. But the most loving thing a Christian can do is to proclaim the truth. I hope you guys understand that my relationship with God is very important to me and I just can't be indifferent to it. And I really believe that the knowledge of God revealed to us in the Bible is the key to everything that matters. Why we're made, where do we come from, where we are going. I'm not saying I have answers to everything. If my monitor breaks down just becaues I'm a Christian doesn't mean I can fix it.

10-12-2010, 11:11 AM	#51
MRRiley Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sterling, VA, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,275	Originally posted by RoxnDox About the only Absolute Truth that might get agreement in here is "The universe exists". We seem to be arguing about everything else... You'd think this was the P&R mudpit. Jim But does it really exist Jim? We could all be a figment of your imagination... or y'all of mine... Mike

10-12-2010, 11:18 AM	#52
MRRiley Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sterling, VA, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,275	Originally posted by magkelly My idea of "God" is about as far from what the Christians, Muslim and Jewish "holy books" teach as it gets. I've studied all of those religions and more in depth and yet I've still never been able to understand why so many people follow them or that "God" so fervently. You really need to read, if you havn't already done so, Samuel Clemens' "Letters From the Earth." Mike

10-12-2010, 12:59 PM	#53
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	Ah, good ol' Mark Twain... “ The Creator sat upon the throne, thinking. Behind him stretched the illimitable continent of heaven, steeped in a glory of light and color; before him rose the black night of Space, like a wall. His mighty bulk towered rugged and mountain-like into the zenith, and His divine head blazed there like a distant sun. At His feet stood three colossal figures, diminished to extinction, almost, by contrast -- archangels -- their heads level with His ankle-bone. ” “ Man is a marvelous curiosity. When he is at his very, very best he is a sort of low grade nickel-plated angel; at his worst he is unspeakable, unimaginable; and first and last and all the time he is a sarcasm. ” “ He took a pride in man; man was his finest invention; man was his pet, after the housefly . . . . ” “ It is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies. ” Very clever and witty writer - and yet another example of searching for God and creating tales to try and explain His nature and justify his existence, damning every other explanation due to the fallacy of man. Why not? With no absolutes, it's just free reign isn't it? ("My idea of God is this..." "But my concept of God is that...")

10-12-2010, 01:07 PM	#54
MRRiley Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sterling, VA, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,275	The part I like Ash, is the part where Lucifer talks about the fact that most men can barely be persuaded to sit in church for an hour a week, much less sing during that hour... yet that same man is supremely sure that he is going to enjoy an eternity of singing one endless song in the biggest church in the universe... (paraphrased of course)

10-12-2010, 01:28 PM	#55
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	Originally posted by magkelly No, I'm fine with you being whatever works for you, but quoting a "holy book" and it's verses at me and in doing so aiming to define what "God" wants is the antithesis of the point I was making. You think that as a Christian you know the truth as it is revealed in your holy book, but I honestly can't even comprehend limiting "God" in that way. Whatever created us does reveal itself to us all the time, sure, through it's work, our universe, but the whole sin, salvation, son of God thing, I'm sorry but that's just human mythology at work. Popular human mythology, some of our best I think, but it's still mythology all the same. Is God really 'limited' in the Bible? If God is as mentioned in the Bible: love, mercy, compassion, and all those other things (don't bother with the argument that the Old Testament God was not loving etc. - see previously in https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/political-religious-discussion/78644-isla...tml#post861625), does the Bible place restriction on His omnipotence? Quote: I just can't base my life upon any "holy book" and I absolutely refuse to grovel and "worship" the "God" of the major religions. To me that "God" is very little different from the jealous and often far too human gods of our collective human past. If I have to do "this" or be "that" to measure up to deserve God's love and avoid punishment then I simply don't want it. That's not a "God" that deserves my love, period. You don't have to measure up to any standard to earn God's love as in the Bible - that's the difference. Quote: My idea of "God" is about as far from what the Christians, Muslim and Jewish "holy books" teach as it gets. I've studied all of those religions and more in depth and yet I've still never been able to understand why so many people follow them or that "God" so fervently. Then you haven't studied human behaviour. We're creatures of habit and gravitate towards a structured life - some more than others. OCD personalities could easily find their niche in Islam. But seriously, we're victims of our own demise, and until we surrender those aspects of our lives, we'll never appreciate any of God's grace upon us. Quote: No insult intended I just don't particularly like or respect that version of "God" very much at all. The Bible, Koran, Talmud, etc are on the shelf, but only as reference manuals to human myth. I just don't think that "God" is revealed in them nearly so much as humankind is. None taken when you've put it like that. I totally understand how so many people have a problem with the world's religious views on the concept of God. Imposing, restrictive, contradictory. And of course the Bible will be to the secular world. But none of this changes truth now, does it?

10-12-2010, 01:31 PM	#56
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Moved to P&R.

10-13-2010, 06:55 AM	#57
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	And thread killed. Apparently P&R wants nothing to do with this subject, and those interested in this subject want nothing to do with P&R.

10-13-2010, 01:08 PM	#58
Ash Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Toowoomba, Queensland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,920	Originally posted by GeneV And thread killed. Apparently P&R wants nothing to do with this subject, and those interested in this subject want nothing to do with P&R. Sounds like common sense has prevailed.

10-13-2010, 02:16 PM	#59
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by Ash Sounds like common sense has prevailed. How often does that ever happen?

10-13-2010, 02:34 PM	#60
Nesster Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: NJ USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 13,072	the problem is this is way too long a thread to read and, unless someone was advocating a mystical/buddhist/advaita belief, I'd probably be bored...