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10-10-2010, 08:13 AM   #1
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Seperation of church and state, Israel style

I've always wondered (though not enough to really research it) the rights fascination w/ Israel and it's defense....
This makes it a bit clearer...
I admit Israel is in a rock and a hard place but can't come to terms to believe it's everyone else's fault either.......

Israel approves loyalty oath - Middle East - Al Jazeera English
http://www.londonwired.co.uk/news.php/97675-Israeli-cabinet-backs-controvers...h-loyalty-oath

10-10-2010, 09:36 AM   #2
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Normally, I'd be concerned about separation of church and state. However, Israel was founded in part as the world's only Jewish state. If it can't be that, then what would be the point?
10-10-2010, 11:26 AM   #3
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I think the Jewish 'State' is not the Jewish religion, if it is which of the various versions are they swearing loyalty too? Just askin.
10-10-2010, 11:36 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by Phil1 Quote
I think the Jewish 'State' is not the Jewish religion, if it is which of the various versions are they swearing loyalty too? Just askin.
Good point. Separation of church and state may be too narrow a focus. Just what "Jewish" means is always an interesting topic, even among my Jewish wife, friends and in-laws. Suffice it to say there is some religious aspect to it. The Rabbis I have met will not consider you "Jewish" if, for example, you convert to Christianity.

10-10-2010, 11:47 AM   #5
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Addendum

Livni: Loyalty oath proposal 'politics at its worst' - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News
QuoteQuote:
"The government of Israel has become subservient to Yisrael Beiteinu and its fascist doctrine," said Tibi. "No other state in the world would force its citizens or those seeking citizenship to pledge allegiance to an ideology."
QuoteQuote:
Knesset Speaker Reuven Rivlin was also opposed to the bill, declaring: "The students of Jabotinsky see no need for such bill. I am a fervent Zionist, and I need no strengthening of my belief. The establishment of a Jewish state in the Land of Israel was an ethical act that the world recognized, and it gained great respect when we described our country as Jewish and democratic. This description is also anchored specifically in the Declaration of Independence and the Law on Elections, and any additions of this type can only be harmful."
The closest American version would be a pledge to the "Christian States of America"

Ideology or religion??
10-10-2010, 11:53 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Livni: Loyalty oath proposal 'politics at its worst' - Haaretz Daily Newspaper | Israel News


The closest American version would be a pledge to the "Christian States of America"

Ideology or religion??
You could start here Who is a Jew? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I remember reading entire books on the subject.
10-10-2010, 12:11 PM   #7
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""The Israeli cabinet has approved a controversial bill that would require all non-Jews taking Israeli citizenship to swear loyalty to Israel as a "Jewish and democratic state"".

If that doesn't work for yuh as a non-citizen or immigrant don't do it. Move where you want to go, this isn't Cuba or No Korea, you can always leave.
Who wants to fill thier country full of problems. Just sayin.
10-10-2010, 01:06 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
You could start here Who is a Jew? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I remember reading entire books on the subject.
Too complicated...

QuoteOriginally posted by Phil1 Quote
""The Israeli cabinet has approved a controversial bill that would require all non-Jews taking Israeli citizenship to swear loyalty to Israel as a "Jewish and democratic state"".

If that doesn't work for yuh as a non-citizen or immigrant don't do it. Move where you want to go, this isn't Cuba or No Korea, you can always leave.
Who wants to fill their country full of problems. Just sayin.
I think there more worried about those that are already there......

10-10-2010, 07:19 PM   #9
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So When has Isreal ever separated church and state? Nothing new here. Neither the Israelis or I could give a flying rat's a$$ less what Arab politicians think about the wording of a new oath of loyalty. Why exactly would a Muslim want to live in Israel anyhow?
I think that what we as Americans should be worried about is how and when Israel intends to pay back all those " loans" we've given them over far too long a period of time.
To those Muslims who falsely believe that Israel is some kind of puppet to the US , you must suffer from Cranial Interrectal Disease. Israel has proven time and time again that it looks out for it's own best interests first even when these interests are detrimental to the interests of the US.
Face it folks , the only thing Israel wants from Americans is more money!

Last edited by seacapt; 10-11-2010 at 08:47 AM.
10-10-2010, 07:30 PM   #10
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The liberal version

QuoteQuote:
"I declare that I will be a citizen loyal to the State of Israel as a Jewish and democratic state, in the spirit of the declaration of independence, and I am committed to honoring the laws of the state."
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/barak-drafts-alternative-loyalty-oath-b...srael-1.317701
Loyalty oath splits Israeli press - London News
QuoteQuote:
One commentator defends the proposal as something which chimes with Israel's aspirations as a Jewish and democratic state, as expressed in its declaration of independence.

Another writer condemns the proposal as "racist", while another criticises it for obliging aspirant citizens to sign up to religious beliefs they might not hold. One commentator says that by re-introducing the proposal Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has bowed to pressure from ultra-nationalists, who may end up toppling him anyway.

One Palestinian commentator suggests the proposed law would strip Israel of its ''fragile democracy'' while another says some people might reject citizenship to avoid having to take the oath.

The proposed loyalty law does not seem racist: it is really racist. It obliges non-Jews to declare that they would be loyal to the Jewish state but exempts Jews from this obligation… With this law Israel buys an exit ticket from the family of nations… The new law presents (ultra-nationalist Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman) Lieberman as a hero, as the real ruler of the government, and (Prime Minister Benjamin) Netanyahu, who opposed it but now is adopting it, as a wimp. Lieberman will make Netanyahu more and more a wimp until he topples him. Netanyahu sees this and cooperates with it.

In the last two days a storm has been raging in Israel over nothing… The word 'racism' is being heard in the media every 10 minutes.
10-10-2010, 11:30 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
The closest American version would be a pledge to the "Christian States of America"

Ideology or religion??
You're wrong. Equivalent of "Christian States of America" is "Judaic State of Israel". Jewish and Judaic is not the same.

American procedure of Naturalization look far more difficult to me... In fact, one might wonder how many well known cases of failing the naturalization exam are there?

As a matter of fact I expected that this thread would be open here. And I expected the content as well... Al Jazeera - how predictable.

---------- Post added 10-11-10 at 08:34 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
In the last two days a storm has been raging in Israel over nothing… The word 'racism' is being heard in the media every 10 minutes.
Above is quote of a quote from LondonWired. The political stance of 99% of Israeli mass media is well known and it is not, to put it mildly, equirepresentational of the whole political spectrum.

Oh, and by the way, "church" is not entirely "separated" from the state of Israel. And never was, actually.

Last edited by Boris; 10-11-2010 at 01:28 AM.
10-10-2010, 11:40 PM   #12
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The problem here isn't the pledge, it's that only non-Jews (citizens or not) have to do it.

---------- Post added 10-11-10 at 12:42 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by seacapt Quote
So When has Isreal ever separated church and state? Nothing new here. Neither the Isrealies or I could give a flying rat's a$$ less what Arab politicians think about the wording of a new oath of loyalty. Why exactly would an Islamic want to live in Isreal anyhow?
I think that what we as Americans should be worried about is how and when Isreal intends to pay back all those " loans" we've given them over far too long a period of time.
To those Islamics who falsely believe that Isreal is some kind of puppet to the US , you must suffer from Cranial Interrectal Disease. Isreal has proven time and time again that it looks out for it's own best interests first even when these interests are detrimental to the interests of the US.
Face it folks , the only thing Isreal wants from Americans is more money!
"Israel," not "Isreal"
"Muslim," not "Islamic"
10-10-2010, 11:53 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by deadwolfbones Quote
The problem here isn't the pledge, it's that only non-Jews (citizens or not) have to do it.
Indeed, this a serious problem. However, it has nothing to do with the thread title, has it not?

---------- Post added 10-11-10 at 08:54 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by deadwolfbones Quote
"Muslim," not "Islamic"
Correction - not all Arab citizens of Israel are Muslim. And not all Muslim citizens of Israel are Arabs. These are not equivalent terms and notions.
10-11-2010, 02:33 AM   #14
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Laws like this are stupid because they don't accomplish anything--they're just about making a statement.

It's just that Israel is concerned about maintaining its Jewish majority and "flavor"--when in fact the vast majority of Israelis are far from religious zealots. Also a fact is that there isn't a country on earth that doesn't base their immigration quotas on religious and ethnic criteria, to maintain the religious and cultural integrity of the country.

Of course, when Israel does it, it's considered racism. And when Israel comes forward with a meaningless loyalty oath such as this, it sticks out like a sore thumb.
10-11-2010, 06:00 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by Boris Quote
You're wrong. Equivalent of "Christian States of America" is "Judaic State of Israel". Jewish and Judaic is not the same.

American procedure of Naturalization look far more difficult to me... In fact, one might wonder how many well known cases of failing the naturalization exam are there?

As a matter of fact I expected that this thread would be open here. And I expected the content as well... Al Jazeera - how predictable.
It just happened to come up first and actually had a balanced approach.. how expected that someone attack the source and not the subject. I really expected that.............
As to the title.. it is what it is and was posted here for "open discussion"..... Seems the line of demarcation between religion and nationality is more flexible then I thought at first...
QuoteOriginally posted by Boris Quote
Above is quote of a quote from LondonWired. The political stance of 99% of Israeli mass media is well known and it is not, to put it mildly, equi representational of the whole political spectrum.

Oh, and by the way, "church" is not entirely "separated" from the state of Israel. And never was, actually.
Too bad. Oh and maybe they need Fox........
What about Haaretz ?????
Of course it looks to be the Huff. post equiv........
QuoteQuote:
Strenger than Fiction / Loyalty oath is not about Arabs, it’s about hatred of liberal values
Isaac Herzog is wrong when he says that fascism lurks at the fringes of Israeli society. It is now in the mainstream.
http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/strenger-than-fiction/strenger-than-fiction-loy...alues-1.318406

Last edited by jeffkrol; 10-11-2010 at 06:08 AM.
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