[alelynh]

You do of course realize that the "Christmas" tree actually used to equal the "Yule" tree in the countries where the custom originated. That it was rarely put up anywhere else until the mid 1800's, and that only in modern times has it come to be a "Christmas" aka Christian tree per se.

I think it's nice actually that the White House should acknowledge people of all faiths during the winter holidays. The Christian folks are not the only ones celebrating at that time so why shouldn't the tree stand for everyone? It makes me smile to see the symbols of many faiths and many peoples on the White House tree.

I think it's nice actually that the White House should acknowledge people of all faiths during the winter holidays. The Christian folks are not the only ones celebrating at that time so why shouldn't the tree stand for everyone? It makes me smile to see the symbols of many faiths and many peoples on the White House tree.

This! There are more holidays going on at the time than Christmas even though it gets the most attention. I thought it was so ridiculously low when people complained about best buy wishing people a happy El Id last year and all this bs about Christmas being pc'ed out, as far as I know pretty much all retailers still revolve their OCT - JAN sales in and around Christmas. Heck have you checked stores that have holiday gift cards and such? You get maybe one to three for Chanukah, kwanza, etc but 10 times as much for Christmas. We're just starting to realize that the US isn't all Christian nation and there are more than a few of us who are happy to see that we're being represented as well

[Phil1]

"Festivus for the rest of us"

....and now for the airing of grievances

[Ratmagiclady]

but Hillary proudly proclaimed on national TV that she had decorated a politically correct holliday tree withuniversal decorations that could not offend anybody.
Personally I was offended by Hilldog's "Nothing Tree". They should have just let it grow.

Ah, so... It's a 'Nothing tree' unless you can claim it's only yours?

Yule customs don't *come* from Christianity, as was amply pointed out many times in history by people trying to eliminate it as Pagan when they weren't commercializing it and blaming some 'nothing' of Pagan heritage for their own holy and not-Commie commercialism.

Funny enough, the popular 'A Christmas Carol' was actually *about* the Puritan-inspired perennial 'War on Christmas,' ...Scrooge represented it. Till he got some of the 'magic of the season,' so to speak.

Everyone *knows* it doesn't really fit with the story of Jesus, most of it. ...even the shepherds in the Nativity plays were in the wrong place for that to have even been near the dude's birthday.

Meanwhile, the accumulated symbols from our European heritage there... Actually have meaning in their original context. (Don't worry, they don't constitute 'kneeling to Pagan Gods, either, they don't work that way. Maybe, Yule logs are a bit iffy if you want to be puritanical. ) Mostly, people actually have it right: they're seasonal folk customs, those which were considered permissible or un-suppressable over time by a various lot of Christian authorities.

The holiday and all that goes with it doesn't *belong* to Christianity, any more than the Solstice itself is limited to any religion or people. It's actually all of ours, if we're from those places, and hopefully freely-shared if you're not. (That's kinda the point. It's not supposed to be bought or owned.)

Whatever you think of that, it's not *Nothing.* I think it's really Something, actually. And maybe that's why some want to claim it all exclusively as 'Stolen Fair And Square.' But you can't steal what's freely given.



'Political Correctness' is pretty much just a bogeyman bigots invoke to play the victim when they show how little they respect others.

To cry 'It's free speech!' when their ignorance shows, and to claim that, if there's some nefarious 'political correctness' 'suppressing thought if you don't agree with the Right,' ...that if it's rude to say, it must therefore be true.

What I always observe is that people whine 'PC Police!' when what they're actually doing is *whining when their bullying is rebuked.* (Usually in a context of, 'You're Thought Police, Minorities! I'm not doing anything wrong, but you're just as bad!)

[seacapt]

Wow , this sure went OT!!!!

---------- Post added 10-18-10 at 11:57 AM ----------

You do of course realize that the "Christmas" tree actually used to equal the "Yule" tree in the countries where the custom originated. That it was rarely put up anywhere else until the mid 1800's, and that only in modern times has it come to be a "Christmas" aka Christian tree per se.

I think it's nice actually that the White House should acknowledge people of all faiths during the winter holidays. The Christian folks are not the only ones celebrating at that time so why shouldn't the tree stand for everyone? It makes me smile to see the symbols of many faiths and many peoples on the White House tree.

I am aware of of the origins of many of these customs.
I also have no problem with the White house acknowledging the Hollidays of other faiths. If Hildog set up a mehnorah and played dradel (spelling?) and did some Kwanza stuff and went to a hilltop on the solstice that would be fine but don't take away from Christmas for political ends.
Just as the hollidays of other faiths deserve respect so do the customs of Christmas.
Embracing multiple customs is one thing . Homogenous winter holliday is something else.

---------- Post added 10-18-10 at 12:05 PM ----------

Heck have you checked stores that have holiday gift cards and such? You get maybe one to three for Chanukah, kwanza, etc but 10 times as much for Christmas.

Retail supplies are dictated by demand.
If I owned a store on "Hat Island" who's population was made up of 85 people who wore blue hats , 6 people who wore yellow hats and 9 people who wore no hats at all , I'd stock alot more blue hats.
PC says "everybody should wear green hats".

---------- Post added 10-18-10 at 12:19 PM ----------

Ah, so... It's a 'Nothing tree' unless you can claim it's only yours?

!)

Rat , I'm glad your back.
All I was getting at is that one can respect another's customs without degrading their own.
You of all people must realize the value of diverse culture.
PC says that I have to give up some of my customs to make others believe I accept theirs. That isn't the way it should be.
Truely correct would be people of different customs standing side by side .
Going back to the "Hat Island " analogy , Blue hat guy can celerate with yellow hat guy and vice versa but a green hat holiday is a contrived nothing day.

[Ratmagiclady]

Wow , this sure went OT!!!!

---------- Post added 10-18-10 at 11:57 AM ----------



I am aware of of the origins of many of these customs.
I also have no problem with the White house acknowledging the Hollidays of other faiths. If Hildog set up a mehnorah and played dradel (spelling?) and did some Kwanza stuff and went to a hilltop on the solstice that would be fine but don't take away from Christmas for political ends.
Just as the hollidays of other faiths deserve respect so do the customs of Christmas.
Embracing multiple customs is one thing . Homogenous winter holliday is something else.

Actually, it's *not* OT, since you brought that up (and call someone a 'dog' in the process) as an example of 'PC,' and use language that says 'It's Nothing and 'taking away' and 'homogenized' if our *government* doesn't specifically-and explicitly -privilege *your* religion by marking territory about what *is* in fact, what are considered secular customs surrounding the winter holidays.

Even the word *holidays* comes from Yule. Holly Days. The Christians used the root-words from 'sanctum' 'and sacer' which in turn came from the Mediterranean before Christianity.

But you still use all kinds of negative terms for the seasonal customs, if not claiming they 'belong' to Christians-only. 'Yule' means 'Wheel,' ... most of the customs are about that in one way or another, in the sense of the turning of the year... The wreaths mean the year, the tree itself basically represents the axis on which the world turns, and they didn't have a box of sectarian decorations stamped out by Hallmark or a Chrisitian bookstore, either.

Fine time to celebrate the birth of a 'King,' but actually the symbolism comes from other customs yer man there was associated with in the 'conversion' process.

It's actually Christian theocrats that have historically claimed that all the celebrations O'Reilly wants to believe belong solely to Christianity (despite being unknown to Ireland herself till relatively-recently: ) and thus must be enforced by government and Wal-Mart-or-else-Christians-are-being persecuted... Were 'Too Pagan and Decadent' and thus to be avoided.

So, yeah, when you say 'PC' means that to not-make-the-White-House-Tree-Very-Christian-only is 'lesser,' 'nothing,' makes someone a 'dog,' is 'homogenized,' or is 'taking something away' if everyone else doesn't have to 'go away to some hilltop' in our own country...

I think it's *very* on-topic.

Actually. I think it's a prime example of people claiming 'PC' is some really powerful elite conspiring to say 'boo' when someone demands *everything for themselves-only.* It's a way of claiming 'By rights, this is mine alone, you darn 'secularists!' 'Taking Christ "out" of things that weren't about that to begin with!'

It's not property or copyright: it's a song that was a gift, to you, a Christian, no more or less than to me, a Pagan. From our mutual and varied ancestors to a free nation. It's not a thing diminished by sharing. I thought that was much of the point of all that Norman Rockwell and Snoopy stuff about it.

Perhaps you'll recognize this 'Traditional Christmas Song' ...with 'original lyrics.' (Not that I expect *anyone* to account for Henry VIII. )

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5sSrYzzIKw[/yt]

---------- Post added 10-18-10 at 01:15 PM ----------

Rat , I'm glad your back.

Well, for now. Don't make me sorry I looked.

All I was getting at is that one can respect another's customs without degrading their own.

Again. The assumption 'degrading.' You blame 'PC' for it being 'degrading' in your mind to *not* ...have government exclude some and privilege others at the very center of our free nation?

Is your God 'Degraded' by decorating a tree with glass globes and lights? Without crosses and bibles on them, or something?

You of all people must realize the value of diverse culture.

I surely do. That's exactly why I think people blaming 'PC' when what they really want to do is claim 'Only one religion should be at the 'top,' or even seen or mentioned, or I'll call you 'PC oppressors and dogs,' (Depsite Hillary's ties to 'The Family,' btw, ) ...that's not 'diversity,' that's trying to claim 'dominion.'

PC says that I have to give up some of my customs to make others believe I accept theirs. That isn't the way it should be.
Truely correct would be people of different customs standing side by side .

The only problem here is, in this example, you want to complain about how the customs have 'become secular,' and even though they never *were* 'Conservative Christian,' still say, 'They belong only to Conservative Christians, and this should also represent all America in a government for all, even if it doesn't.'

Kind of like with the Samhain holiday coming up, in some ways. Kind of like the Pagan Dia De Los Muertos, in a lot of ways: in this case, the Christianists are trying to ban it as some 'Unchristian occult holiday corrupting the kids with ...Being scared of spirits like we said!' Cause *they* made it one. With candy. And stuff.

(We call it 'the silly season,' cause people look for the cheesiest, Gothiest 'witches' they can find and put em in the news so they can make off like Pagans must be like they fear year round (or ever) or something, no matter how solemnly we may be revering the ancestors, in between maybe dutifully passing out the pre-packaged candy without so much as a Be ye seelie wight,' lest someone sue or drive by later, if you know what I mean... The kids are cute, though, and 'solemn' isn't something we're prone to take to excess.

Meanwhile, *who's* freaking out? People doing the equivalent of claiming, 'Reeses' Peanut Butter Cups Represent the Sacrifice to the Evil God October For the Gay Communist Agenda!' (That's right, there's no 'God of The Dead Samhain.' Learn some Irish. The name's a *season.* (As in end of such) Familiar theme developing, here?)

So, what are they doing? Moving 'Halloween' away from the Christian 'Feast Of All Hallows' (itself contrived to try to make an irrepressible custom seem like the missionaries' idea to begin with, also to serve as a pressure valve for certain interests) ...to a meaningless-to-anyone-but-Hersheys day of collecting white sugar products and I guess selling 'Twilight' paraphernalia.

Going back to the "Hat Island " analogy , Blue hat guy can celerate with yellow hat guy and vice versa but a green hat holiday is a contrived nothing day.

Funny you should say that. Especially regarding Yule.

But, more to the point, neither yellow nor blue hats 'own' the White House or even American secular customs. It's not 'PC' that says differently. Reality and our laws do. If we forget that, well, frankly, our goose is overcooked.

As for a 'Nothing day?' Well, I suspect that a day spent arguing over the religious implications and agendas of decorations makes more of a 'nothing holiday' than any simplicity and inclusiveness ever could. But we know that, as Americans, right?

There's supposed to be a 'spirit' to the days. If it means a 'fight,' maybe that ain't *it.*

[seacapt]

There's supposed to be a 'spirit' to the days. If it means a 'fight,' maybe that ain't *it.*

I agree.
Now I believe the OP was about What is PC.

[Ratmagiclady]

I agree.
Now I believe the OP was about What is PC.

'PC' is a hobgoblin you use to think, as I've said, that you're being 'robbed' of something if you can't claim your way and only your way.

That's why it *is* on topic.

People claim 'PC' is just some stupid, yet Real 'thing that means I can't have my way and only my way endorsed and proclaimed everywhereforeverandever and if not I'll whine 'You're oppressing me PC people I-mostly-invented, not respecting my intolerance!'

To wit, as in all those holiday examples, *you're* the one bringing the problem and claiming everyone else is 'lesser' than your 'purity' of what ain't exclusively yours to begin with, and trying to find a 'divil' to blame when anyone says you're *wrong.*

You construct your PC devils. Puff them up, like you're being 'oppressed' by a snide remark you heard about from a friend of a friend from a tofu-fundamentalist or something, that Rush Limbaugh has been claiming was 'The Liberal (corporate) media! since he was condemning druggies while slurring his words on Oxycontin... to claim it's 'standing for freedom' to try and mark religious territory when what you really want is *your way over all the land.*

'PC' is a *fiction* With very few exceptions. And those exceptions have little to no real power, (Or credibility with liberals, despite what you say) and they *certainly* aren't behind holiday decorations that fail to exclude enough people you call 'dogs' and disagree with. That's why those exceptions are bitter about tofu. I'm sure you might understand.

And that's a real irony *there:* the *more* people you convince that saying 'Merry Christmas' means underhandedly, 'I obey Christ and a Christian nation while I shop or vote,' the *more* people will say, 'Well, no.'

People afraid of 'PC' act like 'Happy Holidays' is some secularist intrusion on their 'Divine Rights to Dominion,' when *really* it only meant that 'the holly days' weren't ever 'one day one God One Thing.' *Twelve* Days of Christmas,' remember? Christmas Eve, Christmas, Boxing Day, calendar new Year, Plural before you even get to admitting anyone else exists. It also happens to be polite. Who made it a 'war?'

Like most of your devils, 'PC' fears tend to get backwards in a hurry: The thing about Wal-Mart that set O'Reilly off on his rhetorical riastradh was... Not that Wal-Mart (A very-Christian-conservative company) *forbade* saying 'Merry Christmas,' ... they simply *did not mandate it.*

Some churches complained cause someone heard a 'Happy Holidays' and screamed that Wal-Mart should make all their employees 'not take the Christ out.' Attention Wal-Mart Shoppers: Even they are not that powerful.

You might not know it from the way some speak this 'War on Christmas' thing, though, Mighty battle against 'PC.'

But you missed something.

"PC" is only a shadow.

Your shadow. Maybe the 'dog' in the funhouse mirror of your own device.

Don't mistake it for 'The other side.'

---------- Post added 10-18-10 at 03:35 PM ----------

Speaking of O'Reillys and red hands, do you know why their crest that somehow was recognized by English heraldry is a red hand?

According to legend, one of their progenitors was among the Milesians who was in such a hurry to claim the kingship of Erinn, that when his ship was behind the others, that he cut off his own hand to throw it ashore, ahead of the rest. Only problem was..... In so doing, he made himself an unfit 'king,' by the same custom.

To wit, 'Winning,' isn't everything, (And winning what, would be the next question) but try telling some people that.

---

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 10-18-2010 at 12:36 PM.

[kcmadr]

I have added my two cents below in green.

Here is a subject which I am extremely interested in reading various views from this particular forum audience. It is a subject which I have not completely made up my own mind about yet (good thing versus bad thing) and one which you may well help me so to do.

How aware are you of the existence of Political Correctness in your everyday life and do you subject yourself to it? I am acutely aware of PC and where and when I need to use it in everyday life. I don't "subject" myself to it, but rather, I USE it.

Does Political Correctness really exist? Yes. It's a name given to a state of existence of conversation and communication. It's kind of like a universal unoffensive language subject to interpretation.

What is Political Correctness? Communicating non-offensively.

Is it a good thing? Yes.

Is it harmful to society? No.

Does it inhibit free speech or is it maybe a necessary inhibition of free speech? It is a necessary inhibition of free speech. Related is the whole "Right to not inhale vs. right to inhale."

Is it a form of tyranny? No.

I shall read all opinions with interest

[Ratmagiclady]

It is a necessary inhibition of free speech.

Actually, I don't think 'PC' is either of those things. It's a label some put on the idea that what they are saying is *rude, hateful, and demeaning.* In a sense, people complaining, 'Why is it no longer polite to say awful things about people I previously felt entitled to treat badly?'

Politeness: rather like the face-mask rule in football. Does it 'inhibit fair play' or *preserve the game?*

People complaining about 'PC' are rarely 'inhibited,' ...they want everyone *else* to be inhibited. They're just looking for someone to blame and a way to justify it when they get themselves caught out as bigots. All they're doing is claiming, 'If you were free, you'd be this rude, too. Something must be very wrong with everyone else if I am disapproved of for ignorant bullying! I'll call you PC if you aren't silent! Shut up, evil PC people!'


'Not polite' doesn't necessarily mean 'Righteous And True.'

I'm often reminded of punk rock days: in a world where lots of yupsters would sort of cough politely and drop trash on the street when no one was looking, sometimes you just needed to run alongside, screaming "AAAA! This is Disposable! The World Is MY Ashtray!" Then fling the Big Gulp with great show and flourish. The point wasn't that it's *right* to do so because it's 'uninhibited,' but actually that 'politely' trashing the joint is still trashing the joint. Now I'm in the South, where they still just toss trash out the window and expect someone to clean it up, while complaining about paying for such via 'Big Gummint' and calling everyone but themselves 'dirty.' Probably saying, 'This isn't PC, but...' while using my lawn for a dump site. As they drive by maybe listening to O'Reilly on the radio.

There's actually bumper stickers down here, to the effect of, 'You're still littering? Seriously?'

[mikemike]

It is a necessary inhibition of free speech.

You are quite free to not be PC. There are no legal consequences for being rude, hateful, and demeaning as long as the only thing you do is speak it. There are social consequences for it, like being a pariah in polite society but that is nothing legal or official - just the court of public opinion.

[kcmadr]

True. But you probably will become an outcast with a bad name and not be able to get work etc etc etc...

Most definitely not ILLEGAL, but almost certainly not DESIREABLE. It all depends what you want out of life.

Like I said, it depends on the interpretation, and who is interpreting it.

You are quite free to not be PC. There are no legal consequences for being rude, hateful, and demeaning as long as the only thing you do is speak it. There are social consequences for it, like being a pariah in polite society but that is nothing legal or official - just the court of public opinion.