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10-18-2010, 05:59 AM   #1
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Poor, poor Rand Paul

Seems his odd past is catching up w/ him, though I suspect nobody will care.....
Rand Paul, Jack Conway engage in bitter debate at UofL - FOX41.com Louisville News Kentucky Indiana News Weather Sports



QuoteQuote:
Afterwards, Paul refused to shake Conway's hand. He told Fox 41 News he was insulted.

BH: "Was there something you think was extraordinarily personal about the questions?"

Rand Paul : He attacks my family. You've seen the ad. Thanks guys.

BH: "Is there something untrue about the organization?"

Rand Paul did not reply to our last question.
Spectators react to Conway/ Paul debate | WHAS11.com | Louisville news, Kentucky news & breaking news | WHAS11.com | News for Louisville, Kentucky
In his own defense.........
QuoteQuote:
Rand Paul said on Fox News today that his lawyers would be all over GQ magazine if it wasn't for that pesky First Amendment. But he didn't completely deny yesterday's crazy tale of his college years published by the magazine, which included allegations of a "prank" in which Paul and a buddy picked up a female member of the swim team, blindfolded her, and forced her to kneel in a creek and pray to the god "Aqua Buddha."........Paul said that the idea that he kidnapped anyone -- which was widely reported across the media yesterday -- came from headline writers, not the GQ story itself. He pointed out that the woman who made the anonymous allegation to the magazine said that Paul and his friend "never hurt me," and "never did anything wrong."

Then he offered his plan to limit freedom of speech and took the predictable stab at the media.

"I think they deserve a lawsuit," he said of GQ. "The problem is that in our country, they make it almost impossible for politicians to win anything."

Paul suggested that it's at times like these that he wishes America were still under the boot of Her Majesty.

"In England it's easier to win a libel suit," he complained. Despite the limitations placed on libel law by America's written Constitution, Paul said his campaign hasn't "ruled out the possibility" of taking GQ to court.

Paul said the idea that he would kidnap anyone is "ridiculous" and he "absolutely" denied that he ever did. He took a few potshots at the anonymous accuser -- who GQ said didn't want to be named "because of her current job as a clinical psychologist" -- but Paul saved his harshest words for the media which he said made a mountain out of a molehill with the story.
Rand Paul Denies Kidnapping, Says He Can't Remember The Rest (VIDEO) | TPMDC
Where's Waldo........

GQ Exclusive: Rand Paul's Kooky College Days (Hint: There's a Secret Society Involved): The Q: GQ
QuoteQuote:
the Baylor administration became so fed up with the NoZe that it suspended the group from campus for being, in the words of Baylor's president at the time, "lewd, crude, and grossly sacrilegious." During Paul's three years at Baylor, according to former NoZe Brothers, if the administration discovered a student was a member of the NoZe, the punishment was automatic expulsion.
Read More GQ Exclusive: Rand Paul's Kooky College Days (Hint: There's a Secret Society Involved): The Q: GQ
QuoteQuote:
Nearly 30 years later, the woman is still trying to make sense of that afternoon. "They never hurt me, they never did anything wrong, but the whole thing was kind of sadistic. They were messing with my mind. It was some kind of joke." She hadn't actually realized that Paul wound up leaving Baylor early. "I just know I never saw Randy after that—for understandable reasons, I think."

When I asked Benton late last week if Paul remembered any of these episodes from his Baylor days, he replied in an email: "During his time at Baylor, Dr. Paul competed on the swim team and was an active member of Young Conservatives of Texas."
QuoteQuote:
She reiterated other odd aspects of her earlier story, including her claim that Paul and another college friend blindfolded her, tied her up, and told her to smoke pot and worship the "Aqua Buddha," even if they didn't physically force her to do these things.

According to Sargent, the woman says that she was largely playing along with Paul and his friend, but that the incident was so odd that she "ended relations" with them afterward.

Paul's camp has indicated they are considering a lawsuit against GQ, which never actually termed the incident a kidnapping. The magazine's editor, Jim Nelson, says GQ stands by its story.
http://www.aolnews.com/surge-desk/article/key-source-from-gqs-rand-paul-stor...up-as/19589995
One funny dude.........


Last edited by jeffkrol; 10-18-2010 at 06:12 AM.
10-18-2010, 06:18 AM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
BH: "Is there something untrue about the organization?"

Rand Paul did not reply to our last question.
This is a pretty standard PR tactic, what is to be gained by entertaining prolonged discourse about a subject where you know your response will be taken out of context and spun by both your opponents and the media.

QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Paul said that the idea that he kidnapped anyone -- which was widely reported across the media yesterday -- came from headline writers, not the GQ story itself.
Whether it is Faux News or the innumerable liberal media outlets, there is no trouble finding a demonizing angle on any story involving a polarizing political figure such as Rand Paul.
10-18-2010, 06:51 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
This is a pretty standard PR tactic, what is to be gained by entertaining prolonged discourse about a subject where you know your response will be taken out of context and spun by both your opponents and the media.



Whether it is Faux News or the innumerable liberal media outlets, there is no trouble finding a demonizing angle on any story involving a polarizing political figure such as Rand Paul.
Do you believe Rand was a member of the NoZe???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_NoZe_Brotherhood
found this funny.......
QuoteQuote:
An ornery brother is an honorary member of the society. Some include:

* Bob Bullock — Former Lt. Governor of Texas
* George W. Bush — 43rd President of the United States[6]
* Bennet Cerf — "Bro. Board NoZe"; Noted Humorist [7]
* Bill Cosby — "Bro. J-E-L-L-NoZe"; comedian [8]
* John Dean — "Bro. Dean of Dirty Tricks"; White House council to Richard Nixon [9]
* Kinky Friedman — "Bro. The Yellow NoZe of Texas"; Texas Gubernatorial Candidate/ Humorist [10]
* Hayden Fry — "Bro. Crotch Grabber"; college football coach [11]
* John Glenn — "Bro. GemiNoZe"; first American to orbit the Earth, former senator [12]
* Billy Graham — "Bro. Cracker NoZe Graham"; evangelist [13]
* Bob Hope — "Bro. SkiNoZe Hope"; comedian [3]
* Leon Jaworski — "Bro. Water NoZe Jaworski"; Special Prosecutor during the Watergate Scandal [14]
* John M. Lilley — "Bro. Easter NoZe"; 13th President of Baylor [15]
* Rand Paul — Son of Ron Paul, Kentucky politician[16]
* Dan Rather — "Bro. CBS Evening NoZe"; Former CBS news anchor [17]
* Robert Sloan — "Bro. Liniment NoZe"; 12th President of Baylor [18]
* William Underwood — "Bro. Pro BoNoZe"; President of Mercer University, a former interim Baylor president [19]
* Kenneth Starr — "Bro. Non Hostis HumaNoZe Generis"; Independent Counsel whose investigation led to President Bill Clinton's impeachment [20], current Baylor President
Even funnier........ not involving Rand
QuoteQuote:
There is absolutely nothing more southern than NASCAR and Jesus,' said Bro. NoZeanderthal. 'We just wanted to enjoy this nice day with a race.'
http://www.baylor.edu/lariat/news.php?action=story&story=19589
See what really bothers me is Rand didn't just say "Oh yes I had some funny ideas in college but grew out of them" but what does he do? Evade and attack......
http://www.thenoze.org/MrPuZzle.html
today's fuel.........
QuoteQuote:
The debate was full of barbed exchanges such as these, but Conway held his ground and continued to ask Paul why he would voluntarily join a group like the one he participated in at Baylor. Paul refused to answer and declined to shake Conway’s hand at the end of the debate.

On a related note, there’s a new PAC with a tongue-in-cheek name, Americans for America — tagline: “If you’re not with us… You must Hate America” — that’s attempting to run its own radio commercials against Paul that tie the candidate’s laissez-faire attitude towards mine safety to the recent near-disaster in Chile. It’s a bit of a stretch, but it leaps on Paul’s previous comment that “accidents happen” in a bid to galvanize the state’s sizable coal worker population to take a long look at Paul’s stance on workplace safety regulations.
http://washingtonindependent.com/100913/rand-paul-attacked-on-mine-safety-aqua-buddha
QuoteQuote:
Paul got the message. He stopped showcasing his more Libertarian beliefs in national interviews and moderated his earlier, more controversial positions. Following a mining accident in May, Paul first seemed to dismiss calls for more oversight, saying that "sometimes accidents happen"; by September, however, he was signaling he was open to adding more mine inspectors.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20018324-503544.html

Last edited by jeffkrol; 10-18-2010 at 07:08 AM.
10-18-2010, 07:15 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Do you believe Rand was a member of the NoZe???
The NoZe Brotherhood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
found this funny.......

Even funnier........ not involving Rand

http://www.baylor.edu/lariat/news.php?action=story&story=19589
See what really bothers me is Rand didn't just say "Oh yes I had some funny ideas in college but grew out of them" but what does he do? Evade and attack......
NoZe: Mr. PuZzle's Corner!!!!?!
Having a sense of humor disqualifies you from holding office?

Those scamps painted the bridge on campus pink and hung a giant novelty nose and glasses on the tower of campus. For shame, Rand Paul. For shame.

What about people who ride in Mardi Gras parades? They spend thousands of dollars a year to get drunk and dress up in costumes and masks and throw thousands of dollars in trinkets to kids and drunk college students, sometimes requesting them to flash their boobs in order to get something. I know many respectable members of society that participate in this debauchery, or worse dressing up in skimpy outfits on Halloween and Mardi Gras or participating in the Red Dress Run (a 5K pub crawl where everyone, men and women, where red dresses). Kids of all ages need to blow off steam and have a good time and I don't really understand why people expect politicians to be holier than though and somehow above light hearted mischief.

10-18-2010, 09:56 AM   #5
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I thin Rand Paul's opponents need to pull the sticks out of their arses.
10-18-2010, 11:30 AM   #6
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My my perspective.. Rand Paul's an idiot for MANY reasons... and so is this one:

First Read - Angle to Latino teens: 'You look a little more Asian to me'
Video: Angle tells Hispanic kids "I'm not sure those are Latinos" in her ad (!), says really about northern border (!!) - Politics: Ralston's Flash - Las Vegas Sun
BlogPost - Sharron Angle, David Vitter's illegal aliens not quite illegal, photographer says
QuoteQuote:
At that point, "It was a picture of Mexicans in Mexico."

Floyd said as well as using his photograph out of context, he was uncertain how the photograph had been obtained and questioned the legality of the image's use in an advertisement.

It is available on the Getty Web site, but Floyd said it could only be used for editorial work and the purpose of the commercial is clearly advertorial.

The caption for the photograph clearly identifies them as "Mexicans pose for a portrait whilst gathered in the town square of Altar, Mexico." The key words for the photograph do not use the term "illegal," but they do use the term "Mexican Ethnicity."

Critics of Angle have complained the ad is racist. "In its naked appeal to racial animus against Latinos, it rivals the infamous 1988 'Willie Horton' ad deployed against Michael Dukakis," Adam Serwer wrote on the Post's Plum Line.

Bhattacharya sent Floyd the photograph last night after making the connection. "It made me incredibly angry." Floyd said he finally understood what Jon Stewart meant when he said that American politics was akin to people shouting at each other in a wind tunnel.

Sharron Angle has not responded to a request for comment.
And as a point of thought what if Obama had joined the NoZe. I'm sure we'd hear shouts of disgust........
or having a 'friend' named Ayers......
Obama's 'Weatherman' Connection - Fact Checker
Or worse.. just happened to know a errr.. "terr" or never mind.
QuoteQuote:
Whatever his past, Ayers is now a respected member of the Chicago intelligentsia, and still a member of the Woods Fund Board. The president of the Woods Fund, Deborah Harrington, said he had been selected for the board because of his solid academic credentials and "passion for social justice."

"This whole connection is a stretch," Harrington told me. "Barack was very well known in Chicago, and a highly respected legislator. It would be difficult to find people round here who never volunteered or contributed money to one of his campaigns."
What's a bit of College fun.......... The NoZe people broke a couple of laws as well including .................vandalism......
Of course attacking God is a much lesser crime then attacking the "establishment"...... well at least to some.
QuoteQuote:
Ayers claimed the Weathermen were driven by “hope and love,” not despair, and said he did not think the group’s violent acts, targeting federal officials and local law enforcement officers, were “a big deal.”
Michelle Malkin Obama’s Ayers problem deepens
And in hindsight he may have a point........
QuoteQuote:
But Ayers also condemned the Bush administration for using the attacks “to advance a right-wing agenda on every front: every uterus must be examined, every tree chopped down, every oil well dug. I mean, it’s absolute madness.”

“I mean, the only group of people that I know who weren’t weeping for the next several weeks [after 9/11] were the people who were busy typing legislation into their computers,” Ayers continued.

When asked about some Palestinians who had been captured on videotape dancing in the streets after the attacks, Ayers said coverage of those individuals had been “overwrought” in the U.S. media, and added: “[E]verybody in the world knows that Americans are geographically challenged and historically challenged. We don’t have a sense of who we are or where we are. So I think every American that I know was weeping over the next several weeks, and devastated and shocked. Was that an act of pure terror? It absolutely was.

“And there are many other acts of terror carried out by our government, even recently, that, that are comparable.
Back to the NoZe:
QuoteQuote:
The NoZe Brotherhood responded to the controversy with a 24-hour secular wall in protest of the prayer tent. Other students expressed their views on the Lariat Campus Opinion page, spurring others to write letters to the editor about the prayer tent as well.

When it comes down to it, whoever set fire to the tent violated the rights of Baylor students and took advantage of the rights given to them as American citizens. Hopefully, in the future, students will use these rights in a more positive and meaningful way that does not involve defacing someone else's property or breaking the law.
Donkey in Chapel.
http://www.baylor.edu/lariat/news.php?action=story&story=11522[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mT_0I_kf66I[/YT]

Last edited by jeffkrol; 10-18-2010 at 12:03 PM.
10-18-2010, 12:24 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
My my perspective.. Rand Paul's an idiot for MANY reasons... and so is this one:

First Read - Angle to Latino teens: 'You look a little more Asian to me' Video: Angle tells Hispanic kids "I'm not sure those are Latinos" in her ad (!), says really about northern border (!!) - Politics: Ralston's Flash - Las Vegas Sun BlogPost - Sharron Angle, David Vitter's illegal aliens not quite illegal, photographer says
I don't get it, you think Rand Paul is an idiot because Sharon Angle can't read a map? Your confusing me.
10-18-2010, 12:34 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
I don't get it, you think Rand Paul is an idiot because Sharon Angle can't read a map? Your confusing me.
Sorry for the confusion... there BOTH idiots... each w/ it's own variety of idiocracy.....

10-18-2010, 12:41 PM   #9
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I'm pretty sure we all encountered some idiots in college. But sending them with authority to Abu Ghraib or Congress is entirely optional at this point.


Kind of bothers me, really, about that whole crisis about whether or not someone did or didn't inhale. Smoke it or don't. Just for gosssakes stop trying to claim both.

It seems the GOP and Libertarians want somewhat more slack about twelve drunk guys making a chick kneel in a river blindfolded while claiming to be the moral authorities.

We may in fact have the major parties in a nutshell right there.

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 10-18-2010 at 12:51 PM.
10-18-2010, 02:19 PM   #10
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3rd nut from the same tree........

QuoteQuote:
The Alaska Dispatch had previously written articles about allegations that Mr. Miller improperly used local government computers for politicking two years ago, which prompted Mr. Miller to hold a press conference announcing that he would refuse to talk any more about his personal life.

By diverting attention from policy issues, the incident isn’t likely to help Mr. Miller, who has been running neck and neck with Ms. Murkowski, who launched a write-in bid to try to keep her Senate seat.

Last week, the Dispatch said it filed suit in Alaska Superior Court in Fairbanks against the Fairbanks North Star Borough, where Mr. Miller worked as a lawyer, seeking information about any use of government equipment by the candidate for politicking, his performance and the circumstances of his departure. Here’s the Dispatch’s account and its copy of the suit. We’re awaiting comment from the North Star Borough and from the Alaska Superior Court.
Handcuffing Roils Alaska Senate Race - Washington Wire - WSJ
Fun commentary.........
http://community.adn.com/adn/node/153755
QuoteQuote:
I would suggest the media look into William Fulton and his relationship with Joe Miller. Last summer I went into the Drop Zone, hoping to find some military surplus gortex rain pants. While I didn't find that, I did find a drunk and belligerant William Fulton. Him and some of his friends were openly drinking beers and were obviously inebriated. They used racist language, and on multiple occasions, told a customer he was "a f#$^@g dirty jew." These people at the drop zone were clearly white supremecist/milita style scumbags. I would strongly enocourage the media to look at the relationship between Joe Miller and these racist white supremacists, namely William Fulton. This was my experience with the man, and if these are the type of people what Joe Miller hangs out with, our state is in grave danger.
Read more: http://community.adn.com/adn/node/153751#Comments_Container#ixzz12kSaXagx
QuoteQuote:
The press release was headlined "Liberal Blogger Loses it at Town Hall Meeting," although Miller knows well that Dispatch, which is involved in a lawsuit to obtain Miller's Fairbanks personnel records, is not a "blog" but an established online news magazine.

Video footage from Central Middle School cameras may have captured the incident, and Alaska Dispatch will be asking the Anchorage School District to release it.

It is not known at this time whether Hopfinger will be filing charges against the men who detained him.
http://www.alaskadispatch.com/dispatches/news/7187-miller-guard-says-editor-...-private-event
QuoteQuote:
The press release was headlined "Liberal Blogger Loses it at Town Hall Meeting," although Miller knows well that Dispatch, which is involved in a lawsuit to obtain Miller's Fairbanks personnel records, is not a "blog" but an established online news magazine.

Video footage from Central Middle School cameras may have captured the incident, and Alaska Dispatch will be asking the Anchorage School District to release it.

It is not known at this time whether Hopfinger will be filing charges against the men who detained him.
EVEN funnier..........
QuoteQuote:
Whitaker called the computer use a "significant breach" of borough policy over which Miller likely would have been fired had it not been for his crucial role in a borough case involving the value of the trans-Alaska oil pipeline. Miller was reprimanded and was supposed to receive leave without pay, Whitaker said, although he didn't recall if the discipline was ever carried out.
How convenient..............
http://www.alaskadispatch.com/dispatches/politics/7149-ex-fairbanks-mayor-bo...ire-joe-miller

Last edited by jeffkrol; 10-18-2010 at 02:43 PM.
10-18-2010, 10:27 PM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by reeftool Quote
I thin Rand Paul's opponents need to pull the sticks out of their arses.
This kind of nonsense was the original push behind moveon.org.

I think some of the progressives have lost there way. Some of them are still mature adults, Conway's Attack On Paul Slammed By Fellow Dems

We really do need to get to a point where policy makers can spend more time thinking about and implementing policies that will help our country and less time manicuring their public image.

Any attempt to even discuss actual issues in public gets morphed and twisted to the point where the candidates can't even reveal there actual stand on issues, just like a supreme court confirmation. It doesn't help the process at all and our democracy is suffering for it. The only way to get a straight answer to their thought process on a complicated issue is behind closed doors in settings where the audience is screened by the campaign.
10-19-2010, 06:00 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
This kind of nonsense was the original push behind moveon.org.

I think some of the progressives have lost there way. Some of them are still mature adults, Conway's Attack On Paul Slammed By Fellow Dems

We really do need to get to a point where policy makers can spend more time thinking about and implementing policies that will help our country and less time manicuring their public image.

Any attempt to even discuss actual issues in public gets morphed and twisted to the point where the candidates can't even reveal there actual stand on issues, just like a supreme court confirmation. It doesn't help the process at all and our democracy is suffering for it. The only way to get a straight answer to their thought process on a complicated issue is behind closed doors in settings where the audience is screened by the campaign.
Like "birthers" and religious affiliations???? As far as I can tell it is up to the candidates to sell their positions...... and those that did, didn't look so go to me.. at least on one side.....
Let see solve millions w/out heath care... Tort reform and medical savings plans... NOT
Giant billion dollar defenseless fences and Berlin wall style electric fence.... NOT
Privatize some or all Soc sec so it is effected by an unregulated wall street and in the hands of stupid people/scam artists/ NOT
Build up of an already costly and economically destructive military. You cut everything but add to defense spending........ NOT
Give tax breaks to billion dollar companies and billion dollar individuals...... NOT
Barter w/ your doctor....... NOT
Eliminate capital gains tax, yet slap a VAT on all americans thus skewing the have and ave not ratio again......... NOT
Mandating some Christian/secular gov............... NOT
The only reason they go personal is people ARE NOT LISTENING to facts......... that's all that's left when the dumb hornets are just swirling around Mindlessly... sad.
do me a favor......... WRITE what you think is the platform and the solutions to OUR problems.....
10-19-2010, 07:05 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
.............
do me a favor......... WRITE what you think is the platform and the solutions to OUR problems.....
I'll take a stab at that one:

1.)
Don't Vote For Incumbents!

B.) Vote Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, it doesn't matter as long as they don't currently hold the office they are seeking. Preferably, vote for one that isn't in public office at all. If you are undecided between two non-incumbent candidates, vote for the one that has spent the least amount of time in public office. There is an old saying that "Power corrupts, ". So does public office, and the degree is incremental with years served.

4.) Don't Vote For Incumbents!

EDIT: Notice that in B I left out "Tea Party". That wasn't an oversight.

Last edited by Parallax; 10-19-2010 at 07:18 AM.
10-19-2010, 07:11 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Let see solve millions w/out heath care... Tort reform and medical savings plans... NOT
I have an HDHP plan and an HSA. I max out the HSA every year and as a result I am totally insured (have money set aside and earmarked for healthcare costs and have insurance to cover anything above that) for at least 4 years. I still continue to max it out because even if I switched to a normal plan I could still use the HSA money for co-pays and it is pre-tax and grows tax-free. These are actually part of the Canadian health system too, FYI.

Tort reform isn't a silver bullet but there really is none when it comes to our healthcare system. There are lots of problems and it will take lots of different changes.

QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Privatize some or all Soc sec so it is effected by an unregulated wall street and in the hands of stupid people/scam artists/ NOT
By "stupid people" do you mean the american people who would have control over it? What is the problem with privatizing some of social security, having an opt-out? If the government required me to put 6% of my earnings and my employer to match 6% into a retirement account which I decided how to invest I would be totally fine with that and am mature enough to handle the decision making. I already voluntarily participate in the 401(k) plan and have a Roth IRA, I don't see much difference with a 401(k) or IRA and partially privatized social security.

QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Barter w/ your doctor....... NOT
This is actually a good idea and does work, even now. When you get a second opinion, ask what your options are, ask how much a procedure is going to cost before you have it performed, etc.

If you are referring to this, "if you go to the doctor, you don't pay directly for your doctor's services, your insurance company pays for it. ... So the price goes up indiscriminately because nobody is there to barter down the price. What we need is higher-deductible plans, people paying more cash as they go into the doctor, and then what we'll have is the prices will level off."

This is a reference to the classic third party payer problem in economics. When you don't think the choices you make about what tests to have performed, procedures to undergo, and medicine to take don't affect your pocketbook one way or the other, you spend a lot more freely. Think about it like a salesman taking you out for dinner, you have no inhibition to ordering an appetizer, the most expensive entree, and dessert in addition to free flowing drinks. You will end up paying that back with a profit margin when he closes the sale. A little sticker shock goes a long way to sober people up about where their healthcare dollars are going.

You don't think he sees this everyday as a doctor? People without insurance or with limited insurance taking less stylish frames and more economical contact lenses than those with generous vision insurance. They both get the same vision results for very different price tags, and that generous vision insurance is going to increase its premiums next year more than the BC Glasses company will increase their prices.

Or if you are referring to this, "We need to get insurance of out of the way and let the consumer interact with their doctor the way they did basically before World War II."

If you look at the root causes of the employer provided insurance healthcare system we have, one of the biggest factors is the wage freezes implemented during WWII caused companies to innovate with non-wage ways to attract employees and compete with each other, one of the main ways was health insurance.

Why do we reflexively continue down this path? Have you ever been looking for a job and had trouble comparing two offers because Company A's benefits package was nicer than Company B's but Company B's pay was higher and had difficulty knowing whether that was fair. Or if company A was a company with 10,000 people in the group and company B has only 100 people is it possible that Company B is being much more generous because they pay a lot more for their health insurance. If we will be making a national mandate on purchasing health insurance, why not make national or regional pools allow everyone to purchase the plan that they want so they aren't tied to an employer for health insurance. That would be one element of going back to a pre-WWII system.

Another element is the fact that healthcare costs are rising faster than inflation. One likely reason is that a lot of healthcare dollars are untaxed pretax dollars and the goods used to measure inflation are taxed and bought with post tax dollars. Taxes put downward pressure on price increases everywhere else in the economy, but not in health care.

QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
that's all that's left when the dumb hornets are just swirling around Mindlessly
But you don't have to be one of the hornets mindlessly swirling. There are enough dittoheads out there on both sides.
10-19-2010, 09:24 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
I have an HDHP plan and an HSA. I max out the HSA every year and as a result I am totally insured (have money set aside and earmarked for healthcare costs and have insurance to cover anything above that) for at least 4 years. I still continue to max it out because even if I switched to a normal plan I could still use the HSA money for co-pays and it is pre-tax and grows tax-free. These are actually part of the Canadian health system too, FYI.

Tort reform isn't a silver bullet but there really is none when it comes to our healthcare system. There are lots of problems and it will take lots of different changes.
Your lucky, that is not financially possible for millions, especially those w/out insurance to start with. To be honest what is your return (in interest) of the money you have "locked up"...
Those "plans" are strictly for someone else to make money. Think they do it for free:?
QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote

By "stupid people" do you mean the american people who would have control over it? What is the problem with privatizing some of social security, having an opt-out? If the government required me to put 6% of my earnings and my employer to match 6% into a retirement account which I decided how to invest I would be totally fine with that and am mature enough to handle the decision making. I already voluntarily participate in the 401(k) plan and have a Roth IRA, I don't see much difference with a 401(k) or IRA and partially privatized social security.
IF you truely want more financial freedom, unburden yourself from the health ins./health savings game..... even if it costs you a bit more on taxes you will truly be set free........ your point of view is always hypocritical.. free yourself to be chained to market forces.... how ridiculous.


This is actually a good idea and does work, even now. When you get a second opinion, ask what your options are, ask how much a procedure is going to cost before you have it performed, etc.

If you are referring to this, "if you go to the doctor, you don't pay directly for your doctor's services, your insurance company pays for it. ... So the price goes up indiscriminately because nobody is there to barter down the price. What we need is higher-deductible plans, people paying more cash as they go into the doctor, and then what we'll have is the prices will level off."

This is a reference to the classic third party payer problem in economics. When you don't think the choices you make about what tests to have performed, procedures to undergo, and medicine to take don't affect your pocketbook one way or the other, you spend a lot more freely. Think about it like a salesman taking you out for dinner, you have no inhibition to ordering an appetizer, the most expensive entree, and dessert in addition to free flowing drinks. You will end up paying that back with a profit margin when he closes the sale. A little sticker shock goes a long way to sober people up about where their healthcare dollars are going.

You don't think he sees this everyday as a doctor? People without insurance or with limited insurance taking less stylish frames and more economical contact lenses than those with generous vision insurance. They both get the same vision results for very different price tags, and that generous vision insurance is going to increase its premiums next year more than the BC Glasses company will increase their prices.

Or if you are referring to this, "We need to get insurance of out of the way and let the consumer interact with their doctor the way they did basically before World War II."

If you look at the root causes of the employer provided insurance healthcare system we have, one of the biggest factors is the wage freezes implemented during WWII caused companies to innovate with non-wage ways to attract employees and compete with each other, one of the main ways was health insurance.

Why do we reflexively continue down this path? Have you ever been looking for a job and had trouble comparing two offers because Company A's benefits package was nicer than Company B's but Company B's pay was higher and had difficulty knowing whether that was fair. Or if company A was a company with 10,000 people in the group and company B has only 100 people is it possible that Company B is being much more generous because they pay a lot more for their health insurance. If we will be making a national mandate on purchasing health insurance, why not make national or regional pools allow everyone to purchase the plan that they want so they aren't tied to an employer for health insurance. That would be one element of going back to a pre-WWII system.

Another element is the fact that healthcare costs are rising faster than inflation. One likely reason is that a lot of healthcare dollars are untaxed pretax dollars and the goods used to measure inflation are taxed and bought with post tax dollars. Taxes put downward pressure on price increases everywhere else in the economy, but not in health care.



But you don't have to be one of the hornets mindlessly swirling. There are enough dittoheads out there on both sides.
401K's were killed in the crunch of the bank meltdowns.. Do you not pay attention??
Profit margins (for many things) and NET are HUGE to many industies related to health..
as to stupid, Yes, including myself.......
You want "private investments" do it yourself not w/ Soc. Sec... other side of the "lift yourself up strategy"
I don't want my healthcare to be like buying a car....... that is plain stupid. Shop around at my local health wal-mart.... ridiculous.
All you peole talk about is getting gov out to simplyfy your life and what do you do.. MAKE IT MORE COMPLICATED by adding a million "shopping choices".. that's plain stupid.
Bugs me everytime I go Ins/bank/loan/ shopping for something soooo simple gets wrapped in retail levels of utter stupidity..
SIMPLE life my a$$..............MORE complex and dangerous.
Fine if I overspend on an LCD tV not fine if my "bottom dollar" doctor happened to give himself a license OR worse yet, fled one state due to malpractice, and is not freely practicing in my state......... the system is COMPLETELY, and UTTERLY broke..
For a bit of shock and awe........
Medical Errors, Past and Present - ABC News
QuoteQuote:
According to Associated Press reports, the hospital was fined $50,000 and reprimanded by the state Department of Health on Monday after the third episode this year involving a doctor performing brain surgery on the wrong side of a patient's head.
Wonderful, let's make that a $50 fine screw lawyers.. and you'd be the first in line for a lawyer if an MD accidentally amputated your foot.. . or would you just say "accidents happen"
|'ve worked for the health ins. industry and worked in a hospital billing dept.. the whole thing is a cash cow wrapped in some corruption of what "free enterprise" should really be for.. at least in my opinion.....Neither one was concerned w/ health, just cash.............
IF you truely want more freedom, free yourself from the insurance/saving club chains..... your point is always hypocritical, freedom to be chained to market forces.. how silly.
AND........ another example of NOT defending your positions........
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/The-Vote/2010/1019/Joe-Miller-a-no-sho...ebate-worth-it
QuoteQuote:
As for Mr. Miller, who beat Senator Murkowski in the Republican primary, “no one seemed to miss him,” wrote the Dispatch in its coverage of the event.

(Miller had not planned to be there – it isn’t as if he just didn’t show up. He had a long-standing scheduling conflict, said a spokesman.)
Has anyone really said (in all the times any politican has used this phrase) WHAT the other commitment was? I've never seen it.

Last edited by jeffkrol; 10-19-2010 at 09:52 AM.
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