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10-26-2010, 06:51 AM   #1
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Forgive and forget or just forget

or is it something worse....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/26/us-veteran-killed-iraqis-tea-party\
QuoteQuote:
A few months after he killed the two unarmed Iraqis, a member of his unit reported him to senior officers and he was charged with premeditated murder. At a pre-trial military hearing, prosecution witnesses testified that the detainees, Hamaady Kareem and Tahah Hanjil, were unthreatening and that their bodies were found in a kneeling position having apparently been shot in the back.

The defence countered that weapons had been found in the house from where the Iraqis were fleeing. The men had turned on Pantano unexpectedly as he was guarding them. He shouted "Stop!" but they didn't respond and he opened fire in self-defence.

Defence lawyers highlighted inconsistencies in the accounts of the prosecution witnesses and portrayed the main witness, who had been demoted by Pantano, as a soldier with an axe to grind. Forensic evidence was said to conflict with the prosecution case.

In the event, all charges against Pantano were dropped on grounds of insufficient evidence. But the officer presiding over the hearing recommended that Pantano be given non-judicial punishment for having displayed "extremely poor judgment", adding that by desecrating the Iraqi's bodies with his placard he had brought disgrace to the armed forces.Pantano declined to be drawn on the specifics of his case. "I'm running for Congress. I'm not defending myself for something that happened five years ago," he said...................
He has been endorsed by Pamela Geller, one of the leading opponents of the cultural centre who has built bridges between her group Stop Islamisation of America and the British far-right group the English Defence League.

"I don't have any anxieties about Pam Geller," Pantano said. "She is a patriot. I'm thrilled to have her endorseme
The country has gone completely wacko..........................
Make light of John Kerry's purple hearts and elect a "possible" murderer????
www.thefactsaboutpantano.com
Ilario Pantano - Salon.com

10-26-2010, 07:27 AM   #2
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I don't think it s good thing to prosecute soldiers for split second decisions made on the battlefield. The charges were dropped after the very thorough investigation. That said, he was mentioned as displaying poor judgment and that is something to seriously consider before voting for anybody. Political decisions and laws affect people for years to come and need to be carefully thought out and not passed as quick gut reactions. There is enough of that already and it takes a long tome to get these laws repealed. So for that reason, I wouldn't vote for the guy as his history shows he makes bad judgment decisions under pressure. This is not a liberal/conservative issue. A candidates ability to make good decisions is an important thing to consider regardless of his political views.
10-26-2010, 09:44 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by reeftool Quote
I don't think it s good thing to prosecute soldiers for split second decisions made on the battlefield. The charges were dropped after the very thorough investigation. That said, he was mentioned as displaying poor judgment and that is something to seriously consider before voting for anybody. Political decisions and laws affect people for years to come and need to be carefully thought out and not passed as quick gut reactions. There is enough of that already and it takes a long time to get these laws repealed. So for that reason, I wouldn't vote for the guy as his history shows he makes bad judgment decisions under pressure. This is not a liberal/conservative issue. A candidates ability to make good decisions is an important thing to consider regardless of his political views.
I agree, it is more a reflection of the overall political mentality.... including that loony toon in Alaska (I guess you could pick one).
As much as I recognise wartime mentality and how it's not always a reflection of a persons true personality (arguable I suppose) knowing some people who did some "bad stuff" in Vietnam (no, Im not saying I understand nor believe all are truely "understandable") I can admit to 2 sides to a story. As to his "not guilty" OJ was too.....
I prefer to draw my own conclusions and probably would lean towords the "not stable personality" area or at least "not moral enough for my support" ........ so far.
10-26-2010, 12:47 PM   #4
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Generally, we forgive and forget the split second screw-up decisions our guys make, and persecute the same thing from the guys on the other side.

10-27-2010, 02:01 PM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Generally, we forgive and forget the split second screw-up decisions our guys make, and persecute the same thing from the guys on the other side.
Yeah, there is that mentality that the other side are the "bad" guys when in reality they are just soldiers trying to survive and would rather be somewhere else also.
10-27-2010, 05:21 PM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by reeftool Quote
Yeah, there is that mentality that the other side are the "bad" guys when in reality they are just soldiers trying to survive and would rather be somewhere else also.
On our side of things, we have also decided that we get to choose who is a soldier and who isn't, and how wars shall be fought, like as if we can somehow sanitize it.

A soldier must wear a uniform, and have lots of big guns etc.

Unfortunately, the other side isn't buying into this. They know what war is, and they are not about to fight it the way we want.
They know that war is about demoralizing the enemy, and hurting them any way you can.
10-27-2010, 08:34 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by reeftool Quote
Yeah, there is that mentality that the other side are the "bad" guys when in reality they are just soldiers trying to survive and would rather be somewhere else also.
I'm not sure emptying a few clips from an m-16 into unarmed "alleged" combatants is actually "survival"..........
AND if you look at history one of the reasons we won the american Revolution is we didn't play by the British rules of combat and preferred gorilla tactics..
Now to be perfectly clear I do understand the "fog of war".... not really seeing it in this case.....
Heck we even wack our own........
QuoteQuote:
Fragging. When one American killed another American, usually a superior officer or an NCO, the term "fragging" came into use. Although the term simply meant that a fragmentation grenade was used in the murder, it later became an all encompassing term for such an action. It is known that "fraggings" did occur during Vietnam, but the precise number is uncertain.

"During the years of 1969 down to 1973, we have the rise of fragging - that is, shooting or hand-grenading your NCO or your officer who orders you out into the field," says historian Terry Anderson of Texas A & M University. "The US Army itself does not know exactly how many...officers were murdered. But they know at least 600 were murdered, and then they have another 1400 that died mysteriously. Consequently by early 1970, the army [was] at war not with the enemy but with itself." Rough figures for "fraggings" are indicated in column a. below.
http://home.mweb.co.za/re/redcap/vietcrim.htm

Last edited by jeffkrol; 10-27-2010 at 08:40 PM.
10-28-2010, 08:24 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
I'm not sure emptying a few clips from an m-16 into unarmed "alleged" combatants is actually "survival"..........
AND if you look at history one of the reasons we won the american Revolution is we didn't play by the British rules of combat and preferred gorilla tactics..
Now to be perfectly clear I do understand the "fog of war".... not really seeing it in this case.....
Heck we even wack our own........

"Fragging" and "Combat Refusals" in Vietnam
Going back to the original comment, we are the good guys. Who's good and who's bad is determined by who wins in the end. If the British had won out in the revolution, our founding fathers would have been hung as common criminals.

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