[mikemike]

In *college?*

Are you *serious?*

Admittedly, like I said, a lot of people came to believe 'degrees' could and should be *bought,* hence serious illiteracy, even in a 'President,' namely Dubya, but that's the *problem,* As elucidated.

In one generation we have gone from teaching Greek in high school to remedial English in college.

Like I said, it is a course that is normally taken in the first semester and is often an easy 'A.' Even if a student transfers in or took AP English in high school they have to pass the proficiency in order to get credit for the course. The requirement is there for a reason.

[deadwolfbones]

I was a TA in a class like this, at Loyola Chicago, and I did have to give out my share of D- grades. Some kids escape high school with grades good enough to be accepted into a pretty tough private university, and still can't write a coherent sentence to save their lives. Public schools in this country really are on the brink in many ways.

[Ratmagiclady]

My son had a basic course something like that his Freshman year. He said it was nearly identical to the one he took his Junior year in H.S.

Junior year in high school? Are you serious?

Remedial 'English as a Native Language' is *that* hard? Conservative?

Goddess.

[Parallax]

Junior year in high school? Are you serious?

Remedial 'English as a Native Language' is *that* hard? Conservative?

Goddess.

Who said anything about remedial English? It was just a really basic course, and it was mandatory for all Freshmen.
I think the reason for it, is that the colleges are starting to realize that the public school system is failing, so they are picking up some of the slack
on the basics. The problem with that is that you have to pay the college. That means you are paying for the course twice. Once with taxes and once in tuition.

---

Last edited by Parallax; 11-05-2010 at 02:33 PM.

[fotaki]

My comments on this are based upon experience in the UK, not reflecting the 'politics' that seem to exist in the US.

I was, for a few years, a Photo. tutor in a local Art and Design College - catering for B.Tech. students in the 17-20 year age range. Said students were assumed to have reached minimum academic standards upon entry so their potential art skills were our prime concern. The policy of the College was to be somewhat lenient towards many shortcomings as long as they showed interest in the curricula.

Well, I can honestly say that this policy gave the teaching staff some problems. It is said that 'a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link'. We found that, as a group, the students were badly affected by some poor performers and of course, the disruptive ones. We were constantly obliged to give individual attention to some of the good and bad performers in order to progress.

I suppose what I'm saying here is that in an educational environment, it is important that certain student standards are achieved for the good of all and the individual and there should be pressure (subtle or otherwise) to make sure this happens.

[Nesster]

Variously called Freshman Composition or English or Writing&Thinking, these courses not only teach how to put sentences and papers together, also how to quote and how to aviod plagarism etc. And, not to put all blame on public schools (and by extension, the teachers), there's an identifiable attitude in high school kids that often makes learning this stuff a challenge. At college, this attitude towards school often changes.

[mikemike]

Remedial 'English as a Native Language' is *that* hard? Conservative?

In the case of New Orleans, it is needed thanks to William Jefferson's (D) family sacking the school board and stealing money from the school system for decades.

[Ratmagiclady]

In one generation we have gone from teaching Greek in high school to remedial English in college.

Maybe not *one.* I took six years of Latin at a Catholic religious school ....and being good at languages, (Not to mention being the only one who'd given a sh** for four years) I didn't realize just how little was actually being taught, while I was actually kind of *carrying* most of the other people in the class. Till I saw the AP exam. about halfway through I was just like, 'Eh, tear it up, padre, we didn't learn nothing.'

It was like, *we were coddled.* I helped do the coddling, however unwittingly. Six years and you can't read half of a passage of Suetonius or something. Forget about English.

Half the problem there in all this politics is peole forget that the point of education is to *learn,* not to be judged by someone who cuts checks.

Like I said, it is a course that is normally taken in the first semester and is often an easy 'A.' Even if a student transfers in or took AP English in high school they have to pass the proficiency in order to get credit for the course. The requirement is there for a reason.

Speaking of my high school, *anyone* in AP English, even the most-stoned punkers, would have known better grammar *and* been way past some of the classes given to business majors for padding, either in English, philosophy, or any of the other disciplines being pressed by money while being devalued.


Even there, the fact was, the families with real money weren't paying for their kids to get C's, D's, and F's, they were paying for B's. Or else. To get into the big schools. Where you'd either be a 'captain of industry' or treat college as a place to *marry* one. Big names, big moneys, being pronounced literate *cause they bought that,* ...if your folks worked for the town and you were smart enough to pad the GPA and stuff,


Meanwhile, Neocons scoff at 'intellectual elites' and they need remedial English *in college* (For which everyone's suppposed to go into student loan debt) while complaining about people raised to Spanish.


And that's the thing about most of this stuff: elementary, middle, and high school, is all about surviving, most especially without seeming to be 'too smart' never mind not-straight. It's why the Republicans are all 'pro-bullying,' ...cause they were the coddled bullies. Told they were 'smart' if they imposed that view hard enough. Feel 'oppressed by academia' if that doesn't actually fly in the real world. (So they run for state Congress.)


Meanwhile, you go to college and there's all these spelled out requirements for 'remedial logic' which is basically a punctuation test for an auditorium full of people ignoring *everything* but the fact they 'need to pass.'


That was me in college, actually, freshman year. Some dorm-mate saw me give a little wave to someone, and was like, 'Who was that?' 'Someone I sleep with in Philosophy class,' Funny, I've never seen her on the floor,' 'That's cause I only sleep with her in philosophy class. Its at like eight in the morning.' (and this was because even the prof was *so* cynical about the class that prerequisite or not for other things, well.... the prof didn't care either. Not that he was otherwise some kind of luminary. )

Still kind of a sad state. Philosophy of *all* subjects and even the professor and an *auditorium* full of whoever, just marking time.

There was some protest about it on the professor's part, but he said, 'This is attendance and punctuation.'

Not exactly Socrates, is it?

[Ira]

I just got back from lunch with a friend of mine who is a college English professor. When I arrived she was grading an essay so terrible that she could barely finish it. After two pages of red ink, she finally marked it a 'D.' I was surprised and after I asked why she was so generous, she explained that it was department policy to let the students rework this type of essay over and over again until they get at least a 'C' so they don't give an 'F' because they can't pass with a 'D' anyway. She went on to say that this particular student would be pissed anyway because he feels like showing up to class and "trying hard" entitles him to at least a 'B.' I have experienced this myself before as a TA grading lab assignments where people were upset to get failed for being totally wrong on a completely objective subject based on the substantial level of effort they expended arriving at their wrong answers. What do you all think of the expectation for grading egalitarianism?

I think it sends the wrong message because in the real world you don't get any points for trying hard if all your hard work produces rubbish.

Two questions:

1) What was the essay about?

2) If you gave that same essay to 5 English professors, would they all give similar marks?

Look--we're talking English here, and unless the essay was mostly graded on proper grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc., who the hell is an English professor to properly grade someone's ability at written expression? Let's face it:

English professors are failed writers.

But again, you didn't explain what was being tested, but instead, took your friend's analysis of the situation over the reality of it.

Most teachers really suck.

[reeftool]

Should the carpenter who built a crooked house get paid? He "tried" to make it square. Education and the school system prepare students to enter the real world called working for a living. If they aren't competent, they can't hold a job. Passing someone who isn't competent does him no favors and hurts everyone as he will probably end up in Congress.

[Gooshin]

Should students who try hard still be failed?



YES

[SpecialK]

I have an employee for whom English is a second language (he's born-here American). Can barely read, and says "we was" instead of "we were", and "I ain't got no...".

Another employee said he has trouble doing percentages...such as 85% of 200.

Yet another one had never seen the Zapruder film of the Kennedy assassination.

[seacapt]

Should students who try hard still be failed?



YES

Welcome back Goosh,
and I agree !

[mikemike]

2) If you gave that same essay to 5 English professors, would they all give similar marks?

Look--we're talking English here, and unless the essay was mostly graded on proper grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc., who the hell is an English professor to properly grade someone's ability at written expression? Let's face it:

Proper grammar and the ability to write 5 coherent paragraphs that argue one side of the issue given in the prompt is all that is required to get a passing grade of a 'C.' If you are able to come up with a good thesis statement and introductory sentences you've got a 'B.' If you have can effectively use quotes, complex sentence structures, and make strong arguments you can get an 'A.' On the pass/fail scale yes all readers should come up with the same grade or very close.

When I was a TA for computer science labs, students would usually get 25 points if they followed coding standards, 25 points if their code actually compiled and tried to do the right thing, 25 points if it got the right output (we usually had 5-10 test cases only 1-2 of which were disclosed explicitly), and the final 25 points was based on style (ie using what they should have just learned instead of bending over backwards with what they learned before). It would really burn their ass when they tried really hard and bent over backwards then they and they still got a low mark because they did it wrong.

[deadwolfbones]

Look--we're talking English here, and unless the essay was mostly graded on proper grammar, spelling, punctuation, etc., who the hell is an English professor to properly grade someone's ability at written expression? Let's face it:

English professors are failed writers.

But again, you didn't explain what was being tested, but instead, took your friend's analysis of the situation over the reality of it.

Most teachers really suck.

This is complete bullshit. Most English professors aren't writers at all, except in the academic sense. Most of them enjoy the study of literature, not attempting to create it.