[Hypocorism]

Can someone please provide me with some useful details of substance re the actual power capacity, and the lasting (in use drain) power of typical 4x AA NiMh bundle compares to what size? Lithium Ion block equivalent.

To put that another way:
I'd like to be able to realistically (with some accuracy, not 'religious opinions' on which is preferred) equate; eg. in practice, what actual mAh capacity of a Li block unit would be the equal in lasting/usage of a 4x AA (say 2000mAh eneloops), in a given same camera or flash unit.

Fwiw; I've not yet found any credible data & figures out there on this, so links to substantiate claims most welcome.

.R.

[icywarm]

The trouble is there is NO standard... here I found Nikon stats and I will post NiMh stats in a moment

Nokia Li-ion battery for powering a mobile phone
specific energy 100-250 W·h/kg
(0.36-0.90 MJ/kg)
energy density 250-360 W·h/L
(0.90-1.30 MJ/L)
specific power ~250-~340 W/kg
Charge/discharge efficiency 80-90%
Energy/consumer-price 2.5 Wh/US$
Self-discharge rate 8% at 21 °C
15% at 40 °C
31% at 60 °C (per month)
Cycle durability 400-1200 cycles
Nominal cell voltage 3.6 / 3.7 V

VS

"Normal" NiMh

specific energy 30–80(100) W·h/kg
energy density 140–300(385) W·h/L
specific power 250–1000 W/kg
Charge/discharge efficiency 66%
Energy/consumer-price 2.75(0.75-1) W·h/US$
Self-discharge rate 30%(1-2%)/month (temperature dependent)
Time durability Citation Needed
Cycle durability 500–1,000(1500)
Nominal cell voltage 1.2 V


Thus:

For this Nikon and this standard set of NiMh the density is better for the Lith-Ion, but the NiMh has better stand-by (kinda)

Can you tell me what Lith-Ion you are comparing to and I will try and find those stats...

[starbase218]

It's probably not the answer you were expecting, but I'll post it anyway; when it's freezing cold, NiMH's will give you close to 0 shots. Li-ion is far better in that respect. When the temperature is higher, I don't know which lasts longer. For me that's not an issue though, because both will give you hundreds of shots, and I always carry a spare with me, regardless of the type of battery.

[icywarm]

It's probably not the answer you were expecting, but I'll post it anyway; when it's freezing cold, NiMH's will give you close to 0 shots. Li-ion is far better in that respect. When the temperature is higher, I don't know which lasts longer. For me that's not an issue though, because both will give you hundreds of shots, and I always carry a spare with me, regardless of the type of battery.

Which you can prove with the simple math shown above... discharge rate/Temp...

[mikemike]

For the K-r:

Battery life (CIPA Standard)
• 470 shots with D-LI109
• 1000 shots with AA

Pentax K-r mid-level DSLR announced with brief hands-on: Digital Photography Review

Don't know which breed of AA battery they are talking about, probably energizer lithiums.

[Hypocorism]

It's probably not the answer you were expecting, but I'll post it anyway; when it's freezing cold, NiMH's will give you close to 0 shots. Li-ion is far better in that respect.

Hey thanks, That's one factor that I was blissfully unaware of.
Not really important to me in normal local climate but still something to be alert to and possibly effecting the larger %age of cameraphiles on the planet.

.R.

[Hypocorism]

The trouble is there is NO standard...

Oh dear, I really feared that might be... but did you have to remind me?

here I found Nikon stats and I will post NiMh stats in a moment

---snip helpful numbers---


Thus:

For this Nikon and this standard set of NiMh the density is better for the Lith-Ion, but the NiMh has better stand-by (kinda)

Can you tell me what Lith-Ion you are comparing to and I will try and find those stats...

Well not really, I can't cite off hand, sorry, I was more interested in the overall 'generic' situation. Like you say; it's a bit of a dog's breakfast out there in the market when you go to choose and buy from a range of similar products, and to further clarify, what I probably seek is some concrete guide to take much of the guesswork, and ignorance, toward evaluating battery[ies] type and stated mAh capacity as a realistic comparator index in assessing if product A excels over product B, in that aspect.

Is it possible?

Sort of like, how it's often common sense to look beyond the most megapixels bullshit hype and instead evaluate sensors on other (often un[der]stated or hidden) merits.

eg. some DLSR "deals" (specials) come with an extra (spare) battery, which might look nice saving on the surface... Otoh, can it be because the battery in that particular brand/model is an underpowered dog anyway, so consumer could be wise to avoid being sucked in to the sweetener, with brand B being the better long term buy?

Does all that make sense?

.R.

---

Last edited by Hypocorism; 11-05-2010 at 04:15 PM.

[newarts]

I recently looked at some low self discharge NiMh's. The package said "16X the number of photos in your Digital Camera" or words to that effect. The small print said something like "Compared to Energizer Lithium when recharged 30 times..."
That sure makes the Energizers sound good! It implies that each charge of the NiMh's takes about 1/2 as many photos as the Energizers.
I bought Energizers.

Dave

[Hypocorism]

For the K-r:

Battery life (CIPA Standard)
• 470 shots with D-LI109
• 1000 shots with AA

Don't know which breed of AA battery they are talking about, probably energizer lithiums.

Yes, cute numbers aren't they Mike, but... being a K-x owner for long time now I simply don't believe in Santa Claus anymore either.

Will be interesting to see just how often K-r owners end up having to pump up their D-LI109 tyres out in the real world. CIPA standards aside, those tests are always performed by skilled personnel, from new and good conditions etc., not yer average gronk in random daily ownership usage.

Actually I smelt a rat on finding that they'd bundled 4 throwaway lithiums with the camera anyway, and so never used them -- went straight to NiMh rechargables instead.

Except that the rotten thing eats them like they're going out of fashion (about 200-250 max on eneloops or equiv is average here), aside from their one so-called firmware bugfix, that didn't.

I honestly believe the camera model is obviously energy inefficient. Sony NEX seems to have serious bad habits in that area too.
(compared to a Canon I have that uses 4x AAs, the K-x is a joke)

.R.

[Eruditass]

I recently looked at some low self discharge NiMh's. The package said "16X the number of photos in your Digital Camera" or words to that effect. The small print said something like "Compared to Energizer Lithium when recharged 30 times..."
That sure makes the Energizers sound good! It implies that each charge of the NiMh's takes about 1/2 as many photos as the Energizers.
I bought Energizers.

Dave

Crappy advertising... I've been recharging my LSD NiMh's for over a year and they still give me nearly 1000 shots (depending on my shooting habits). So it should be more than 16X

And of course they share batteries with my flashes... and chargers. Including the cheap smart-charger with car adapter I just leave in my car.

[Rory]

There is a bit of self discharge from NiMH, but not like NiCad. Lithium is virtually nil. So Lithium stores better. Lithium has a wider band of operating temp (said before). Lithium is less testy to overcharge as all batteries have a cutoff to prevent things from going boom.

[icywarm]

I honestly believe the camera model is obviously energy inefficient. Sony NEX seems to have serious bad habits in that area too.
(compared to a Canon I have that uses 4x AAs, the K-x is a joke)

.R.

The actual act of taking photos requires very little power... shot RAW with no filters and no 'preview', with the LCD set to very dim or off and you will have many many more shots then using Live View and on board flash with jpg filtered with 5 sec preview, ect

Does NEX have an electronic view finder... if so that is the trouble...

[Hypocorism]

The actual act of taking photos requires very little power... shot RAW with no filters and no 'preview', with the LCD set to very dim or off and you will have many many more shots then using Live View and on board flash with jpg filtered with 5 sec preview, ect

True but this is a not a game of should have to wrap a product in marshmallows for one's general everyday use.

In fact the manuals describe how to do and use all these juicy features for the owner's common photographic 'experience'.

Sure, otoh they also go to shorter lengths about how to best conserve, but that simply isn't always practical in the real world for the majority of people -- who just want to use and enjoy their expensive toy, and in turn expect it to fairly deliver that promised experience.

At least as good or better than many alternate brands can.

Does NEX have an electronic view finder... if so that is the trouble...

Well many P&S and esp EVILs have an EVF, yet haven't gained a rep for drainage that NEX did so rapidly after entering the market.

I'd still contend that it's Sony's poor implementation on energy efficiency at fault there, as appears same with my poor old K-x.

.R.

[mikemike]

about 200-250 max on eneloops or equiv is average here

Do you always use the flash? I probably get at least double the shots out of a charge. I also have a stash of energizer lithiums that I got dirt cheap at a toys-r-us location that was closing and liquidating.

[Hypocorism]

Do you always use the flash? I probably get at least double the shots out of a charge. I also have a stash of energizer lithiums that I got dirt cheap at a toys-r-us location that was closing and liquidating.

Not much, I use the onboard flash only for wireless to slave firing, and that's not often, or switch on and use remote shutter rarely too.
And don't use liveview either, let's be honest, the K-x screen resolution just doesn't cut it to take that feature serious anyway!

Also thought it might be my chargers, but MM testing shows the batts are well charged after.

Could be my particular camera has a power-drain leak too, but then others I know report similar, so it's probably behavioural, user habits I guess.

Which doesn't explain why my other brand camera on same AAs doesn't have an issue though. Jeez the K-x doesn't even have powered ultrazoom to suck them dry, that always get a heavy workout, and it's more graphics intensive too. Oh well them's the breaks - although it does tend to nurture much brand aversion regarding future purchases or recommendations.

These things do eat away at the mind in that regard and can't be ignored, esp in times when the "green" factor is an increasing consideration for appliances and toys. Any batteries are bad enough and lithium especially is not a friendly metal for inexpensive reprocessing either, and makes disgusting landfill.

.R.