[causey]

It is unfortunate that we still haven't heard from B&H.

Meanwhile, Adorama has answered. Their answer:

Our policy is that we either sell returned items as open box, or return them to the manufacturer for a partial credit.
...
If a customer receives an item that they believe has been used, we always take it back it our expense.

So business with Adorama is safe. What's up with B&H?

This is the classical answer any store will give you. Just send an email to BH's customer service, without mentioning the discussion here, and you'll get the same kind of response.

[HUYSTA]

This is the classical answer any store will give you. Just send an email to BH's customer service, without mentioning the discussion here, and you'll get the same kind of response.

I must be the unfortunate one then, cause I obviously didn't get this kind of response from B&H - and that was without mentioning any discussion here or anywhere.

[causey]

I must be the unfortunate one then, cause I obviously didn't get this kind of response from B&H - and that was without mentioning any discussion here or anywhere.

Then perhaps there's some chance Adorama is serious about it.

[henryp]

Can one buy them for a discount? Some customers may want to do that.

The reason we have a product category for "open box" merchandise is that we do have items which have been returned because the customer changed his or her mind and, upon close and careful inspection, the item has been determined to be in perfect working condition. Such items are almost always also in perfect cosmetic condition too but if not, a note is attached to the item on our web page.

This is not a recent example but it is a true story. A customer wanted to upgrade from an entry level Nikon 35mm slr to the then new FM3a. His old camera required a tug on the rewind knob to open the back. He received and returned three FM3a bodies claiming all were defective out of the box because he was unaware that for the new camera he had to push a small lever before tugging the rewind knob. I saw all three returns. They were all in perfect, pristine, as-new condition. For each, he'd removed the camera from the box, failed to open the back, repacked the camera and returned it.

If an item is returned because the customer says it is not working as it should, it is returned to our supplier.

[henryp]

Sometimes no response or silence is an answer.

From A Man For All Seasons:

Sir Thomas More: Not so. Not so, Master Secretary. The maxim is "Qui tacet consentiret": the maxim of the law is "Silence gives consent". If therefore you wish to construe what my silence betokened, you must construe that I consented, not that I denied.

Of course Sir Thomas later lost his head over this, but that was a long time ago.

See post #14 on page 1 of this thread. I think in saying "thank you" Henry acknowledged, without being explicit, that B&H sells returned items as new. Virtually all American stores do it.

My "thank you" was directed towards the reasonable tone and thoughtful content in general and if at anything in particular, towards, "Guess their factory QC is rather loose to be honest, or at least the gloves were in short supply. However, if the lens works fine, I am cool."

...the practice of sending used/demo/refurb/returned lens as a brand new lens without disclosing or compensating it to your customer is still not acceptable in my book, no matter what other may say here.

Fortunately, as I have demonstrated, this is not what happened in your case.

I have since opted for a refund and I have to pay for freight back to their store in NY.

By now you know B&H has agreed to pay for or reimburse your return shipping expense.

As it stands, we currently have an implicit "yes"

We do? I'd prefer you not put words, implicit or explicit, in my mouth. TIA.

[sebberry]

Why would you even have a history record of the lens in your database in the first place if what you are selling is truly brand new?

A lot of stores track product via serial number for warranty purposes.

At my computer store we did it to track which supplier a part came from and when we ordered it. It also prevents customers from buying a lens and swapping the item bought from someone else and trying to scam a refund out of the retailer.

[causey]

So, if Henry's answers are truthful--and I believe he is being honest--the problem is with the QC in the Pentax factory and, accordingly, we should address our complaints to Pentax.

[Class A]

I'd prefer you not put words, implicit or explicit, in my mouth.

I'm not putting words into your mouth, I'm trying to assume what is correct in the absence of concrete information.

Once again, you managed to not answer the original question. Your mentioning of a category for "open box" merchandise and repeating that in a particular instance you did not sell a used item as new, does not, I repeat not, answer the original question.

Now wouldn't it be best if you just committed -- like Adorama did -- to not sell opened box items as new? And if it ever happened by mistake that you would bear the cost of replacing the item? Would that not be best for your store and the customers?

Precisely because the above really is more of a rhetorical question but you never managed to answer it with a single straight answer, leads me to the conclusion that you don't want to make the commitment.

If you like to call that "putting words into your mouth", that's your prerogative, but frankly I find this tone and the lack of an answer to a simple question inappropriate.

Makes me wonder why pentaxforums calls B&H a "trusted store". Unless you give us a "yay" or "nay" we don't even know what answer to trust.

[Class A]

Henry, BTW,

Score
Adorama: 1
B&H: 0

Translation: Adorama commits to not sell opened box items as new and to bearing the cost of replacement in case of a mistake while B&H does not commit to such a guarantee (at least not yet).

Maybe you want to rectify this with a simple answer.

[HUYSTA]

By now you know B&H has agreed to pay for or reimburse your return shipping expense.

Is it? I never made aware of this until now. If this is the case, then thank you and looking forward for B&H to put this into action.

[magkelly]

I'm sorry, but I do think you all are twisting what Henry is saying and that's just not fair to him or the store. He's said they have a different category for open box items. That likely means they're clearly sold as "open box" items probably for a bit less. Not shipped as "new' and he's also stated several times that it's their practice to track items by serial number to ensure that open box items are not sold as new items.

I mean what more do you want from the guy? He's saying if an item is truly defective it goes back to the manufacturer. Items that have been opened and returned that are not defective get sold as "open box." If it's not an opened box item as brand new. I would assume they also have a category for demos used in the store, and that those items are sharply discounted and sold after use.

It all seems pretty standard to me and for the record I'd shop there anytime knowing that they have responded as they have. Seems to me they've been pretty darned nice under the circumstances and given the tone of this thread.

I'm sorry but the more I read here the more my jaw drops. From where I sit the man has bent over backwards to answer the original poster's question as best as he can. From what I can tell so he has been completely frank, and no matter what he says there's no still satisfaction for some.

Come on be fair. The man HAS answered the question and the store has gone out of their way to accomodate the original poster besides by shipping the item back et all. What more can you ask of B&H for crying out loud? Geeze...

[Class A]

I'm sorry, but I do think you all are twisting what Henry is saying and that's just not fair to him or the store.

The problem is not that we are twisting what he is saying, the problem is that he isn't saying anything.

He's said they have a different category for open box items. That likely means they're clearly sold as "open box" items probably for a bit less.

"Likely"? I don't think so. Even if you were right, "likely" is not good enough for me.

Not shipped as "new' and he's also stated several times that it's their practice to track items by serial number to ensure that open box items are not sold as new items.

Where did he give that specific reason for tracking serial numbers?

I mean what more do you want from the guy?

A single "yes" or "no" to the original question.

He's saying if an item is truly defective it goes back to the manufacturer.

What about the items that have been sent back due to other reasons?

Items that have been opened and returned that are not defective get sold as "open box."

Where did he say that?

Did you look at the "open box" category? Do think B&H doesn't get more returns than the few items available in that category?

From where I sit the man has bent over backwards to answer the original poster's question as best as he can.

So where is his "yes" or "no"?

As long as we still waiting for a concrete answer, I don't think he has done the "best he can".

[henryp]

The problem is not that we are twisting what he is saying, the problem is that he isn't saying anything.

I'm not? Then all of this (emphasis added):

The reason we have a product category for "open box" merchandise is that we do have items which have been returned because the customer changed his or her mind and, upon close and careful inspection, the item has been determined to be in perfect working condition. Such items are almost always also in perfect cosmetic condition too but if not, a note is attached to the item on our web page...If an item is returned because the customer says it is not working as it should, it is returned to our supplier.

was typed in vain? I'm not sure how much more plain I could possibly be and still provide a complete answer. BTW, you linked to a comment from Helen Oster, for whom I have nothing but respect and admiration. In that link, she said, "Our policy is that we either sell returned items as open box, or return them to the manufacturer for a partial credit." I said, "'open box' merchandise... (or) returned to our supplier."

Score
Adorama: 1
B&H: 1
:-)

@magkelly & @sebberry - Thank you!

[Class A]

I'm not sure how much more plain I could possibly be and still provide a complete answer.

It really isn't that complicated, is it?
You've been asked a question that can be answered with "yes" or "no". Instead of providing one of these answers you give us a lot of information and quotes, all of which are compatible with both possible "yes" and "no" answers.

Just because you have an "open box" merchandise category, doesn't mean that every item that is returned by a customer (because they changed their mind, not because it was defect) is put into this category. It may still be the case that some of these returned items get sold as "brand new" again.

I understand that not everyone may be sufficiently versed in logic to see all the loopholes you have left yourself open with your answers, in other words, that you never provided a definitive answer. You come across as a very clever guy and that's why I find it hard to believe that you are not aware of this. However, I'm willing to give you the benefit of doubt and consider the possibility that you truly think you have provided an answer.

So once again, here's your chance. Please just tick the boxes:

If I buy a brand new item from B&H, does B&H guarantee that the item has not been handled by another customer before?
[ ] yes
[ ] no

In other words, is every item that gets returned by a customer for any reason other than the item being defective sold as a "open box" merchandise and will not be sold as "brand new" again?
[ ] yes
[ ] no

Should I receive an item that clearly shows signs of use, will B&H honour the guarantee to sell brand new items only and replace the used item so that I don't have to bear any cost (e.g., return shipping) whatsoever?
[ ] yes
[ ] no

I'm looking forward to your three ticks. Depending on where you place them, I'll be happy to concede that my current belief is wrong. I will then of course follow up any corresponding posts I've made in other threads and amend them with the correct information.

Regarding your score, I'm afraid the jury is still out. Once you provided the three ticks, I'll update the score board.

[Parallax]

This has gone far enough. If some of you don't trust B&H, fine; but you're through bashing them here.