Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
11-22-2010, 07:32 AM   #1
Inactive Account




Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,292
Gore says corn ethanol is not good policy

..or how stupid gov't works.

U.S. corn ethanol "was not a good policy"-Gore
Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:24pm GMT
Print | Single Page[-] Text [+] * U.S. ethanol consumes about 40 pct corn crop
* Impact on food prices "real"


By Gerard Wynn

ATHENS, Nov 22 (Reuters) - Former U.S. vice-president Al Gore said support for corn-based ethanol in the United States was "not a good policy", weeks before tax credits are up for renewal.

U.S. blending tax breaks for ethanol make it profitable for refiners to use the fuel even when it is more expensive than gasoline. The credits are up for renewal on Dec. 31.

Total U.S. ethanol subsidies reached $7.7 billion last year according to the International Energy Industry, which said biofuels worldwide received more subsidies than any other form of renewable energy.

"It is not a good policy to have these massive subsidies for (U.S.) first generation ethanol," said Gore, speaking at a green energy business conference in Athens sponsored by Marfin Popular Bank.

"First generation ethanol I think was a mistake. The energy conversion ratios are at best very small.

"It's hard once such a programme is put in place to deal with the lobbies that keep it going."
He explained his own support for the original programme on his presidential ambitions.

"One of the reasons I made that mistake is that I paid particular attention to the farmers in my home state of Tennessee, and I had a certain fondness for the farmers in the state of Iowa because I was about to run for president."

U.S. ethanol is made by extracting sugar from corn, an energy-intensive process. The U.S. ethanol industry will consume about 41 percent of the U.S. corn crop this year, or 15 percent of the global corn crop, according to Goldman Sachs analysts.

A food-versus-fuel debate erupted in 2008, in the wake of record food prices, where the biofuel industry was criticised for helping stoke food prices.

Gore said a range of factors had contributed to that food price crisis, including drought in Australia, but said there was no doubt biofuels have an effect.

"The size, the percentage of corn particularly, which is now being (used for) first generation ethanol definitely has an impact on food prices.

"The competition with food prices is real."

Gore supported so-called second generation technologies which do not compete with food, for example cellulosic technologies which use chemicals or enzymes to extract sugar from fibre for example in wood, waste or grass.

"I do think second and third generation that don't compete with food prices will play an increasing role, certainly with aviation fuels."
Gore added did that he did not expect a U.S. clean energy or climate bill for "at least two years" following the mid-term elections which saw Republicans increase their support.

(Reporting by Gerard Wynn; editing by Keiron Henderson)

11-22-2010, 07:39 AM   #2
Veteran Member
jeffkrol's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wisconsin USA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,434
so trying something and admitting it may not work is WRONG when trying something, knowing it doesn't work and continually selling it (ie Bush tax cuts, war in Iraq, bank abuses) is the RIGHT way?......... how stupid have we really become???
how many generations have we (some of us) "complaining " about "funny farm" politics??? NOW it's bad???
Careful what you wish for........
QuoteQuote:
The GOP has many opportunities to reverse years of bad policies established by the George W. Bush and Barack Obama administrations. But none will be a better measure of the party’s principles — or lack of them — than the opportunity to end tax subsidies for contrived commercial enterprises propped up with free-trade retarding tariffs.

The 2005 and 2007 energy bills mandated use of ethanol. Among unanticipated ill effects was a boom in corn production, which crowded out other crops, resulting in increased food prices, while diverting corn to fuel manufacturing. The repercussions reached the world market, with some even blaming ethanol for Mexican riots over the scarcity of tortillas.

Environmentalists recognized the harm of vastly larger corn crops that demanded more fertilizer production and use, adding to harmful runoff, which some blamed for “dead zones” in the Gulf of Mexico adversely affecting aquatic life. The expanded corn crop acreage also was blamed for soil erosion and endangered wildlife habitats.

Moreover, the Congressional Budget Office reported that ethanol tax credits wouldn’t boost ethanol consumption after all because the mandate effectively set demand. Cornell professor Harry de Gorter observed that tax credits effectively subsidized gasoline consumption. The CBO noted that the credits subsidized ethanol that oil companies would have bought anyway. The effect, as Washington Examiner columnist Timothy P. Carney reported, “boosts profit margins for oil companies, and subsidizes fuel consumption — thus subsidizing driving.”

It’s time Congress and conservative, free-market Republicans, in particular, let this “industry” die.
http://www.cnjonline.com/opinion/test-40954-republicans-market.html
Welll wonders never cease...........
QuoteQuote:
And yet, amazingly, not even this independent commission was willing to eliminate the $6-billion sacred cow of annual ethanol subsidies. The current 45-cents-per-gallon tax credit for blending ethanol into gasoline automatically expires December 31, as does the 54-cents-a-gallon tariff on imported ethanol. So all senators and congressmen need to do is nothing, and beleaguered taxpayers will save six billion bucks.
We can only hope. Unfortunately, renewable fuel lobbyists will try to use the lame duck session to perpetuate the special treatment. The National Corn Growers Association, Renewable Fuels Association, Growth Energy, ADM and POET ethanol count as friends incoming House Speaker John Boehner, incoming House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Dave Camp, Senate Majority Leader Mitch ]McConnell, Senate Finance Committee Ranking Member Chuck Grassley, other influential Republicans and scores of prominent Democrats.
http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/articles/1110/1110ethanol.htm

Last edited by jeffkrol; 11-22-2010 at 07:52 AM.
11-22-2010, 07:47 AM   #3
Veteran Member
MRRiley's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Sterling, VA, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 6,275
He probably doesn't have any corn stocks...
11-22-2010, 08:27 AM   #4
Pentaxian
reeftool's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Upstate New York
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 9,543
The whining never seems to stop. Energy isn't free. Ethanol was hyped by Gore and his "green" friends as a start in the solution to global warming. Only an idiot would think that consuming food crops for fuel wouldn't drive prices up, especially since 1.2 gallons of diesel are consumed in the production of 1 gallon of biofuel. That was acceptable a few years ago. Gore and his friends believed the high fuel prices were a good thing and would result in more efficient engines, solar powered homes and a wonderful smog free world. Now he's changed his mind because Mexicans can't afford tortillas. I'm even more thankful he never got elected.

11-22-2010, 10:03 AM   #5
Inactive Account




Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,292
Original Poster
""so trying something and admitting it may not work is WRONG when trying something, knowing it doesn't work and continually selling it (ie Bush tax cuts, war in Iraq, bank abuses) is the RIGHT way?......... how stupid have we really become???""

Lets see if the gov't continues the ethanol game. Agore no longer has a vote in the payouts. Hey it's only 9 billion or so. ADM thanks you.

ADM's Largess Preserved Ethanol Break, Study Says
By Ben White
Special to The Washington Post
Thursday, June 11, 1998; Page A21

Agribusiness giant Archer Daniels Midland Co. (ADM), the single largest beneficiary of a controversial federal ethanol tax subsidy, contributed more than $3 million in unregulated "soft money" to Republican and Democratic national party committees during the past 10 years, according to a study by Common Cause.

Congress recently extended the subsidy through 2007 as part of the new highway bill signed into law Tuesday, overriding efforts by House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Bill Archer (R-Tex.) and other critics of "corporate pork" to kill the tax break.

Champions of the subsidy say it is important for bolstering the farm economy and reducing the nation's dependence on foreign oil. Ethanol is a corn-based extract that is blended with gasoline to produce gasohol – a gasoline alternative. The tax break makes ethanol cheaper for gasohol producers to buy.

But the Common Cause report contended that the tax break – a perennial target of budget hawks and "pork busters" – escaped its latest brush with death largely on the bountiful political giving by ADM, the nation's largest ethanol producer.

Of the more than $3 million of soft money accounted for in the study, $2 million went to Republicans and $1.1 million to Democrats.

ADM also gave direct political action committee contributions to congressional candidates: $700,170 to Democrats and $529,276 to Republicans from Jan. 1, 1987, to Dec, 31, 1997, according to the report.

The top recipient in the Senate was Richard J. Durbin (D-Ill.), who got $34,500. The Senate Republican who received the most was Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa), with $17,000. In the House, the top recipient was Minority Leader Richard A. Gephardt (D-Mo.), at $16,000, while the top Republican was Thomas W. Ewing (R-Ill.), $14,750.

The tax break costs the Treasury $600 million a year, according to the General Accounting Office.

"ADM has methodically, over the years, used big money to ingratiate themselves and protect the ethanol subsidy," said Common Cause president Ann McBride.

Dwayne O. Andreas, ADM's prominent former chairman, was known for currying favor with both political parties.

ADM declined to respond directly to the Common Cause study. Eric Vaughn, president of the Renewable Fuels Association, a Washington lobby representing ADM and 70 other ethanol producers, said the decision to renew the subsidy was less the product of ADM's political contributions than the result of grass-roots lobbying by corn-farming cooperatives that have an increasing stake in ethanol, as well as pressure from the governors of corn-producing states.

The tax subsidy was initiated in the 1970s oil crisis to help maintain a viable market for the alternative fuel.

Archer, armed with a 1997 GAO report describing the failure of ethanol to improve the environment or reduce U.S. reliance on foreign oil, successfully led an effort in the House to phase out the subsidy in the highway bill, only to be overruled in a House-Senate conference stacked by House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-Ga.) with pro-ethanol members.

An angry Archer said Gingrich had given in to pressure from farm-state members worried about their reelection campaigns.

Midwestern defenders of the ethanol subsidy complained that Archer was trying to kill it as a favor to competing oil and gas industries in Texas.

"The oil industry has enjoyed subsidies for a hundred years," said John McClelland of the Corn Growers Association.

McClelland said that maintaining the subsidy would allow more time for research to make the production of ethanol less expensive, a point made in May by Agriculture Secretary Dan Glickman.


One Decade, $4.5 Million

Archer Daniels Midland Co. is the largest beneficiary of a tax subsidy on ethanol, a corn-based extract. ADM entities contributed millions of dollars in PAC and "soft" money from 1987 to 1997:

Type To Democrats To Republicans Total
Soft money from company $617,000 $1,562,268 $2,179,268
Soft money, Dwayne and Inez Andreas 380,000 425,000 805,000
Soft money, ADM subsidiaries 190,000 100,000 290,000
PAC money 700,170 529,276 1,229,446
Total $1,887,170 $2,616,544 $4,503,714

Current members of Congress who received the most:

Sen. Richard J. Durbin (D-Ill.) $34,500
Sen. Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) 20,000
Sen. Kent Conrad (D-N.D.) 19,000
Sen. Thomas A. Daschle (D-S.D.) 18,500
Sen. Byron L. Dorgan (D-N.D.) 17,000
Sen. Charles E. Grassley (R-Iowa) 17,000
Rep. Richard A. Gephardt (D-Mo.) 16,000
Sen. Carol Moseley-Braun (D-Ill.) 15,000
Rep. Thomas W. Ewing (R-Ill.) 14,750
Sen. Bob Kerrey (D-Neb.) 13,500
11-22-2010, 10:44 AM   #6
Veteran Member
jeffkrol's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wisconsin USA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,434
ADM- price fixers to the world...... ever hear that one?
Daily Kos: Price-Fixer to the World: ADM and "The Informant"
QuoteQuote:
As Dwayne Andreas told a Senate committee in defending the Export Enhancement Program -- which gave $130 million to ADM between 1985 and 1995 -- "When it comes to agriculture there is no such thing as a free market." In 1999, ADM set aside $269 million to deal with its fines and lawsuits. ADM settled a citric acid price-fixing lawsuit for $35 million.

Price-fixing at ADM was part of the corporate culture shared by the entire upper management, not simply Wilson and Mick Andreas, who were left unprotected by the plea agreement and ended up receiving two-year prison sentences. The government was more concerned with getting a guilty plea and a successful case rather than prosecuting ADM for all of its crimes. Whitacre, the informant who revealed the scheme, ended up with the harshest punishment: He was sentenced to more than 10 years in prison, most of it due to a fraud conviction for embezzling $2.5 million from ADM.
Gov should have "busted" them a loooonnnng time ago.. oh wait we can't. They're fine capitalists....... same old same old...
http://www.startribune.com/business/11211801.html
BUSH:
QuoteQuote:
Ethanol has got the largest potential for immediate growth. Most people may not know this, but today most of ethanol produced in America today is from corn. Most vehicles can use 10 percent ethanol in their automobiles.

What's interesting that Americans don't realize, with a little bit of expenditure, we can convert a standard automobile to what's called a flex-fuel automobile. And that flex-fuel vehicle can use fuel that is 85 percent ethanol.

Amazing, isn't it? Without much cost, your automobile can be converted to be able to burn fuel with 85 percent ethanol or a product made from corn grown right here in America.

Ethanol is a versatile fuel. And the benefits are easy to recognize when you think about it.

One, the use of ethanol in automobiles is good for the agricultural sector. I'm one of these people who believes when the agricultural sector is strong, America is strong.

(APPLAUSE)

The way I like to put it would be -- it's a good thing when a president can sit there and say, "Gosh, we've got a lot of corn. And that means we're less dependent on foreign sources of oil."

(APPLAUSE)

Years back, they'd say, "Oh, gosh, we've got a lot of corn and worried about the price."

(LAUGHTER)

BUSH: Ethanol is good for our rural communities. It's good economic development for rural America. You know, new bio-refinery construction creates jobs and local tax revenues. When the family farmer's doing well, it's good for the local merchants.

Ethanol is good for the environment. I keep emphasizing that we can be good stewards of our environment and at the same time continue with our economic expansion. And ethanol will help meet that strategy.

You don't have to choose between good environment and good economics. You can have both by the use of technology. And ethanol is an example of what I'm talking about.

And ethanol's good for drivers.

Ethanol is home-grown. Ethanol will replace gasoline consumption.

Ethanol's good for the whole country.
And we've been...

(APPLAUSE)

I thought you'd like that.

(LAUGHTER)

The ethanol industry is booming. It must be exciting to have worked for as long as you have on encouraging alternative sources of energy and then all of a sudden see the work come to fruition.

Last year, America used a record 4 billion gallons of ethanol. There are now 97 ethanol refineries in our country, and nine of those are expanding and 35 more are under construction. The ethanol industry is on the move, and America is better off for it.

Many of these refineries are in the Midwest -- the Midwest because that is where the source -- you know, the feed stock for ethanol comes from.

BUSH: That happens to be corn.

But what's really interesting, there are new plants springing up in unexpected areas, like the Central Valley of California, or Arizona, or, of course, in the sugar fields of Hawaii. After all, sugar can be used for ethanol. As a matter of fact, it's a very efficient feedstock for ethanol.

Ethanol required our support. In other words, to get this new industry going it required a little nudge from the federal government.

Since I took office we've extended the tax credit of 51 cents gallon for suppliers. We've created a new 10-cent-per-gallon tax credit to provide extra help to small ethanol producers and farmers. We've provided $85 million of loans and grants for the ethanol business ventures.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/25/AR2006042500762.html
How selective our memory is........................
QuoteQuote:
This economy is strong and we intend to keep it that way. And one way to keep it that way is to make the tax cuts permanent. Tuesday, April 25, 2006
SPEAKING of injustice.......... Mark Whitacre......
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Whitacre
QuoteQuote:
Like Eichenwald, Lieber concludes that Whitacre's lengthy prison sentence was excessive and unjust when one takes into account Whitacre's cooperation in the much larger price-fixing case.[20][24]

Lieber also poses this question: "Where will the government obtain the next Mark Whitacre after potential whistleblowers observe how Whitacre was treated?"
"Had it not been for the fraud conviction," Paisley said, "he would be a national hero. Well, he is a national hero."[7][26][27][28] Paisley added, "Without him, the biggest antitrust case we've ever had would not have been."[7][27][28] On August 4, 2009, in a Discovery Channel documentary, Undercover: Operation Harvest King, several FBI agents stated that "Whitacre got a raw deal."[29] In addition, official letters from the FBI in support of a Whitacre pardon were published in Floyd Perry's September 2009 book, Mark Whitacre: Against All Odds.[30]

Last edited by jeffkrol; 11-22-2010 at 11:27 AM.
11-22-2010, 02:37 PM   #7
Veteran Member
Jasvox's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,107
He is correct. Any time you think an idea of replacing food stock for fuel stock, you are bound to get your priorities in a world of a mess. Until the rest of the world is fat and happy, lay off the food supply.


Jason

11-22-2010, 02:42 PM   #8
Veteran Member




Join Date: May 2007
Location: Central NJ
Posts: 470
QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
He is correct. Any time you think an idea of replacing food stock for fuel stock, you are bound to get your priorities in a world of a mess. Until the rest of the world is fat and happy, lay off the food supply.


Jason
Al gore is right that it was a bad idea. The problem was pretty much EVERY critic of the plan predicted what the subsidies would cause. Al's excuse is that he was runnign for president and needed to buy some votes/campaign contributions.

Every tax payer should be pissed about this approach to "fixing" anything. We had a problem, now we have a bigger problem, and a lot of debt. Yay.
11-22-2010, 04:59 PM   #9
Banned




Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Millstone,NJ
Posts: 6,491
QuoteOriginally posted by reeftool Quote
The whining never seems to stop. Energy isn't free. Ethanol was hyped by Gore and his "green" friends as a start in the solution to global warming. Only an idiot would think that consuming food crops for fuel wouldn't drive prices up, especially since 1.2 gallons of diesel are consumed in the production of 1 gallon of biofuel. That was acceptable a few years ago. Gore and his friends believed the high fuel prices were a good thing and would result in more efficient engines, solar powered homes and a wonderful smog free world. Now he's changed his mind because Mexicans can't afford tortillas. I'm even more thankful he never got elected.
Ethanol is a GOP pet program. Is Gore in the GOP ?
11-22-2010, 05:41 PM   #10
Inactive Account




Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Ames, Iowa, USA
Photos: Albums
Posts: 2,965
Let the corn ethanol subsidy shrivel & die says i.
11-22-2010, 08:54 PM   #11
Inactive Account




Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,292
Original Poster
[I]""Ethanol is a GOP pet program. Is Gore in the GOP ?""[/I

It seems the Dems are on the tall side of the ADM payouts. The Eco crazies are/were also very big on ethanol from corn. The anti BIG OIL folks also liked ethanol.

Lets see the way the gov't goes on this in December.
11-23-2010, 11:52 AM   #12
Site Supporter




Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Detroit
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,491
It's not good policy because you can make it in your backyard.
Welcome to the corporatocracy......
11-23-2010, 07:17 PM   #13
Ira
Inactive Account




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Coral Springs, FL
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,216
Are the Republican attacks on Gore an attempt to divert attention from the Republican Pea-brain Queen Palin?

My God:

It's been two years since Bush Dumbest left office, and Republicans complain that Democrats should "get over it," and that everything now is Obama's fault.

Yet Gore hasn't been near the White House in 10 years, yet people still bash HIM!? A man with more brains in his pubic hair than Bush ever had in his entire body?

It's sad, really. But stick to the subject:

Palin.

Exactly what is it what some of you guys who promote the dumbest of us to high office, and attack the smartest as dumb, because they're smart enough to stay away from your party?
11-23-2010, 07:22 PM   #14
Ira
Inactive Account




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Coral Springs, FL
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,216
QuoteOriginally posted by Phil1 Quote
[I]"The Eco crazies are/were also very big on ethanol from corn. The anti BIG OIL folks also liked ethanol.
Brazil's vehicles run on ethanol from sugar cane production. And an increase in the price of sugar never happened.

And who exactly do you categorize as "Eco-Crazies?" That insult doesn't real mean much in and of itself.
11-24-2010, 04:27 AM   #15
Inactive Account




Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: SoCal
Posts: 1,292
Original Poster
""Are the Republican attacks on Gore an attempt to divert attention from the Republican Pea-brain Queen Palin?""

I think the subject was Al Gore's own opinion that his former stance on corn ethanol is wrong. I don't recall any Palin envovement in the subject in any way. The timing of his opinion is interesting in that supposedly a vote will be coming up in December's lame duck period of continuing the billions in subsidies to ADM and the corn states. I don't think Al Gore has turned Repub and he is questioning his old opinion. Gore or Palin have no votes either. I hope that helps.

""Brazil's vehicles run on ethanol from sugar cane production. And an increase in the price of sugar never happened.""

There is a world glut of sugar generally. Sugar cane is a more efficient source for ethanol. Brazil has lots of cheap land, labor and adequate (non-irrigation) rainfall that makes sugar production cheap. Brazil's history was no petrolium and the ability to grow lots of sugar cane. They started with 100% ethanol which can work in warm climates (cold start issues). Brazil discovered sizable petro fields and dumped 100% ethanol quickly because of engine issues, water affinity, lower energy by volume and availability of gasoline. They used a dilution of 10% ethanol and are now offering an E20 (20%) mix on the market. You might care to note the growing of sugar cane in Hawaii has just about ceased completly because if world prices and availability and the alternate source of sugar beets.

""And who exactly do you categorize as "Eco-Crazies?" That insult doesn't real mean much in and of itself.""

That would be the eco-demagogs like Al Gore and the huge energy users with private jets, big boats, and petro bills that have a brain dead following of SUV owners that hate big oil. With the ethanol deal the eco folks traded a carbon based fuel for a more expensive carbon based fuel and raised food prices. You can use the private jet traffic jam in Copenhagen's eco summit and the big terrible shortage of limos as a focus. It must to have been aweful camping out like that. Locally my fav would be Gov Ahhnoolds hydrogen powered Hummer II. A genuine 'save the planet' development there. I like to lump in the folks that scream about coal plants now while effectivly stopping reasonable nuke power generation development through the years too, but that's just me. Even some of the Greenies have come out and said as much as that was stupid. Amazing too is that Obama had approved the development of a few nuke plants going forward. Could it be that Obama thinks the eco nutz were wrong too? By the way I am for oil consumption reduction, energy efficiencies and clean air and better use of my tax money is all.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
corn, energy, ethanol, food, generation, industry, prices, subsidies, support, u.s
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Nature Dragonfly in the corn Gene Temple Post Your Photos! 1 06-28-2010 06:01 PM
Travel She sells corn mischivo Post Your Photos! 1 05-22-2010 08:23 PM
Ethanol graphicgr8s General Talk 36 08-15-2009 02:12 PM
Corn fed and bred TYOsborn Post Your Photos! 1 09-03-2008 06:22 PM
Flamethrower and corn... good? codiac2600 Post Your Photos! 5 06-18-2007 07:15 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:30 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top