Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
12-09-2010, 10:06 PM   #1
Veteran Member
seacapt's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: North Carolina , USA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,262
Could this possibly be an example of why America is going broke?

Dems help Chinese firm chase stimulus - Business - Going Green - msnbc.com

12-09-2010, 11:37 PM   #2
Pentaxian
Ratmagiclady's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: GA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 13,559
I guess, Seacapt, it depends what the other 1.5 billion in value that's supposed to come with the part of the 450 million that isn't spent in the US does. Sure does look like the U.S. corporate sector gets a big chunk, and it seems it won't come with rate increases that power companies usually associate with a lot of those construction costs. Considering that the 'green jobs' aspect of things is just ramping up, and the US manufacturing base has generally been in decline a long while before that with green projects not being supported while Big Oil got billions in subsidies to dump oil in the gulf while making record profits, well, 450 million to get *that* project started seems a lot better than vaguely throwing it at people sitting on money.

The fact is, we can probably use all the wind power capacity we can get, for lots of economic and ecological reasons , so I question how much of a boondoggle it really adds up to to pay one rich person to send jobs to China than another.

As for who gets the money and how many jobs, well... American power industries have been saying 'No, we can't.'

Maybe it'll 'stimulate' some of that competition we keep hearing about.

There's been a lot of talk about capital and how much of that is in how few hands, and how they keep saying they need even more of what they're sitting on to start motivating them to... Well, do whatever they keep claiming they're going to do and not do but didn't do with the Bush tax cuts and subsidies and corporate welfare they were getting anyway.

They've had plenty of carrots, maybe it's time to say, "OK, how about *we the people* take our business elsewhere? Better get with it or miss out."

Maybe these corporations feel too 'entitled' as it is and need a kick in the tail. Gods know they keep saying that's what the poor and disabled and grannies who can't pay their light bills need.

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 12-09-2010 at 11:43 PM.
12-10-2010, 03:45 AM   #3
Veteran Member
Jasvox's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,110
Probably the number 1 reason America is going broke is because it is fighting an expensive war which will never be won or make a difference at all.

Don't believe me? Take a look here: COSTOFWAR.COM - The Cost of War

To Date:
Cost of War in Iraq: Almost $746 Billion (yes, that's billion with a B)
Cost of War in Afghanistan: Almost $374 Billion

That's a total of over 1.1 TRILLION Dollars or a cost of $7767.00 per taxpayer in the USA. By tomorrow, those figures go up!


Jason
12-10-2010, 04:22 AM   #4
Veteran Member
Nesster's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: NJ USA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 13,056
Jason, these war costs are regrettable - not just the money, but the lost opportunity for those dead or wounded, and our moral standing....
this monetary cost is offset somewhat by the military-industrial complex jobs in building and supplying the army; in Whitewater type jobs overseas; and so on. However, the expensive equipment is destroyed and left in another part of the world, the gasoline used is gone for ever, and so on. Overall a sad waste of natural resources.

12-10-2010, 04:33 AM   #5
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
dadipentak's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 11,291
QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
Probably the number 1 reason America is going broke is because it is fighting an expensive war which will never be won or make a difference at all.
So you're saying it's not teacher salaries that's driving us to the brink of ruin?!
12-10-2010, 06:41 AM   #6
Veteran Member
GeneV's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Albuquerque NM
Photos: Albums
Posts: 9,829
I seem to recall that when the Dems first floated the idea of "buy American" in the stimulus, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce opposed it. U.S. Chamber Opposes Counterproductive 'Buy American' Provisions | U.S. Chamber of Commerce Now we all know that the Chamber is a Democatic icon--No, wait, the Chamber is a Republican stronghold. And then there was a memorable quote from a leader of the Senate, surely Harry Reid: "I don't think we ought to use a measure that is supposed to be timely, temporary, and targeted to set off trade wars when the entire world is experiencing a downturn in the economy,"-- No, wait, that was Mitch McConnell.

Tying the Chinese involvement to the Dems seems a little one-sided. The issue of economic development and trade is an ongoing and touchy one, which is the subject of another thread.

But, yes, the inability to muster the political will to generate more jobs in this country does contribute to economic problems.

Last edited by GeneV; 12-10-2010 at 06:47 AM.
12-10-2010, 07:14 AM   #7
Veteran Member
jeffkrol's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wisconsin USA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,434
QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
I seem to recall that when the Dems first floated the idea of "buy American" in the stimulus, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce opposed it. U.S. Chamber Opposes Counterproductive 'Buy American' Provisions | U.S. Chamber of Commerce Now we all know that the Chamber is a Democatic icon--No, wait, the Chamber is a Republican stronghold. And then there was a memorable quote from a leader of the Senate, surely Harry Reid: "I don't think we ought to use a measure that is supposed to be timely, temporary, and targeted to set off trade wars when the entire world is experiencing a downturn in the economy,"-- No, wait, that was Mitch McConnell.
12-10-2010, 07:21 AM   #8
Pentaxian
Ratmagiclady's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: GA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 13,559
Yeah, if people want to talk about waste and only a few profiting big time, you need look no further than the wars we got embroiled in.

For the kind of money that went into screwing up the Middle East *worse* you could probably assign an armed guard for every dozen people or so, if you're that afraid of terrorists. (Not that I'm saying that'd be a great idea, but really.)

12-10-2010, 10:08 AM   #9
Veteran Member
seacapt's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: North Carolina , USA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,262
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote


But, yes, the inability to muster the political will to generate more jobs in this country does contribute to economic problems.
And that is the point!

There are several issues that bother me here.
First I'm all for going green where and when it is feasable. In many cases though people are led to believe misinformation ( ie. ethanol derived from corn as a fuel additive is going to save the planet). The plaines of Texas seem to be a place where wind power may be feasable so lets assume this wind farm is a good idea.
America needs to reclaim as much of it's manufacturing business as possible. Why would $.01 of stimulus money be spent helping Chinese manufacturing? Why not back or even set up a US manufacturing company for these wind turbines? It can and has been done before. There are people in this country with designs for high efficiency inductive turbines both wind and hydro powered who would love to have a little stimulus money to set up manufacturing and a federally backed market.
The hardest part for me to understand isn't subsidizing Chinese manufacturing but rather that in this proposal the Chinese corperation would maintain and opperrate the wind farm. Sure they would hire a few Americans for initial construcion and a few to grease the bearings , but the lion's share of any profit would go over seas. Again if this is to be a tax dollar backed enterprise why not set up an energy co op to run the opperation ?

It's really not about Dems /GOP. It's about doing what is best for our own country.
The whole idea of political manipulation sending US dollars overseas reminds me of this 1988 John Carpenter classic

Last edited by seacapt; 12-10-2010 at 10:13 AM.
12-10-2010, 10:25 AM   #10
Veteran Member
seacapt's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: North Carolina , USA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,262
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
Probably the number 1 reason America is going broke is because it is fighting an expensive war which will never be won or make a difference at all.

Don't believe me? Take a look here: COSTOFWAR.COM - The Cost of War

To Date:
Cost of War in Iraq: Almost $746 Billion (yes, that's billion with a B)
Cost of War in Afghanistan: Almost $374 Billion

That's a total of over 1.1 TRILLION Dollars or a cost of $7767.00 per taxpayer in the USA. By tomorrow, those figures go up!


Jason
Jason this is a little off topic but I believe you are both right and wrong here
You are right that we can't win and have little to gain because this although called a war is actually a police action. Wars have winners and loosers. To the winner goes the spoils. Police actions have no winners . National and world politics will not allow our millitary to fight to win so all that we are doing is wasting lives and funds!
12-10-2010, 10:56 AM   #11
Pentaxian
Ratmagiclady's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: GA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 13,559
QuoteOriginally posted by seacapt Quote
And that is the point!

There are several issues that bother me here.
First I'm all for going green where and when it is feasable. In many cases though people are led to believe misinformation ( ie. ethanol derived from corn as a fuel additive is going to save the planet).
Well, we've gone into this before, but corn ethanol isn't 'Green:' it's a concession to Agribusiness to get *any* ethanol infrastructure going, among other things, at the price of world food prices and all the other stuff that happens when you *cancel all the ethanol subsidies but the Big Agro ones that promised to provide better sources. Like mixed grasses and other non-monoculture, non-fertilizer and energy-intensive renewables, *

Complicating all this is that all the notions of making the ethanol from things like algae haven't seemed to pan out, (Whether that's from the competition being cut out or science not being able to figure out a way yet/there not really being one, is anyone's guess at this late date. ) As it is, all we got out of it was a bit of flexibility on fuel prices, probably not justifying the costs to the world and us and all.

But harping on it is really just another way that all the *actually* green stuff ends up being cut out of the government subsidies, leaving boondoggles that are then blamed on 'environmentalists.'

There's even West Wing mentions of the corn ethanol thing from like the first season. (ie, when was that, 1999? 2000? ) It's not like *that* part's been a big secret.

Who fed information to the contrary wasn't *actually* environmentalists, dig?

But, hey, if we could find a way to make *kudzu* into ethanol, this place'd be in *great* shape. Coming soon to a town near you. Courtesy of 'mythical' AGW....

Actually, any incentive to keep back the kudzu that doesn't involve clearcutting would probably be good. Plenty of jobs for everyone, there, even illegals...

I know the root's a source of phytoestrogens, which could maybe reduce the pharmaceutical runoff everywhere, fewer old ladies having hot flashes if they don't get enough BGH in their SPaghetti-os, and turning up the AC till the bare trees fall on their houses so they have to *walk* to the swamp and get freaked out about the hermaphroiditic frogs....



Sorry for being silly, but, really.

The big money's been saying 'can't' about a lot of things, and the more and more money they make is only the more they spend on saying 'can't' and sitting on the profits from the problems they make.
12-12-2010, 11:38 AM   #12
Veteran Member
Jasvox's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 3,110
QuoteOriginally posted by seacapt Quote
Jason this is a little off topic but I believe you are both right and wrong here
You are right that we can't win and have little to gain because this although called a war is actually a police action. Wars have winners and loosers. To the winner goes the spoils. Police actions have no winners . National and world politics will not allow our millitary to fight to win so all that we are doing is wasting lives and funds!
What part was I wrong about?

Jason
12-12-2010, 12:00 PM   #13
Pentaxian
Wheatfield's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The wheatfields of Canada
Photos: Albums
Posts: 11,249
QuoteOriginally posted by Jasvox Quote
What part was I wrong about?

Jason
Probably the terminology about sending a huge military force to illegally invade a country being a war.
12-12-2010, 04:14 PM   #14
Banned




Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Millstone,NJ
Posts: 6,491
Enemies are necessary for the wheels of the U.S. military machine to turn.

[YT]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9VxnCBD9W4[/YT]
12-13-2010, 07:16 AM   #15
Veteran Member




Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 794
QuoteOriginally posted by Ratmagiclady Quote
Yeah, if people want to talk about waste and only a few profiting big time, you need look no further than the wars we got embroiled in.

For the kind of money that went into screwing up the Middle East *worse* you could probably assign an armed guard for every dozen people or so, if you're that afraid of terrorists. (Not that I'm saying that'd be a great idea, but really.)
But RML, Obama said all throughout his campaign Afghanistan is where we needed to be not Iraq. You mean He was wrong?
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Gear possibly going up for sale. MJB DIGITAL Photographic Technique 6 03-12-2010 10:53 PM
Quite possibly the deal of the century!! lol101 Photographic Technique 3 07-07-2009 08:12 AM
Possibly a Dumb Question... Preachidus Pentax DSLR Discussion 10 03-19-2009 03:59 PM
Moonscape... possibly my first and last... 8-) Marc Langille Post Your Photos! 24 10-25-2007 08:00 PM
I Broke... Matthew Roberts Pentax DSLR Discussion 3 03-19-2007 05:05 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:10 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top