[jeffkrol]

No. I don't see many golden oldies appreciating what teenagers get up to; to them they can be a nuisance to society with their noisy lifestyles and high risk behaviour, which is far from what most non-demented elderly are comfortable with.

But if that comment was intended for me personally lithos, then it's misdirected - I'm *much* closer in age to my adolescence than to my twilight years (I hope!).

But back to topic, my point was to extrapolate my observations on Special K's experience, which I don't think is an isolated case. Either there's enough money for college/uni students to survive without needing to work or they're finding work elsewhere and such advertised jobs are being overlooked, for one reason or another.

There "borrowing it" w/ the blessing of the gov and the banks who are guaranteed....
There is a disconnect in this country on what one "should make" vs what "one is offered".....
Sold and marketed widely in this country of "opportunity" .......
I'm not sure this generation is any more lazy then past generations or just psychologically beaten down but the problem would be "minor" if more permanent living wage jobs were available forcing the low wage jobs to be more available.. W/ students flexibility becomes important (real or perceived) and employers are not always willing to accept this and at this time they don't have to since the unemployed labor pool is not all students.
As to unemployment benefits there is a dis-incentive for high wage earners to take low wage jobs when benefits exceed opportunities. This isn't only just wages but the "cost" of a job.. gas, transportation, child care, clothing ect....
The whole system is out of whack on both sides of the coin.....
The psychological hurdle of "downgrading" yourself in a socio-economic level is not as easy as one believes..... like losing your house, even though you instinctively understand you will fail one "hopes" "something" will come up until the day you are escorted off your property.. this is losing at it's worst.
I feel sorry for those that look at these situations and minimize the impact on the lives of these people..
None of this is new....
decades ago I had a coworker quite a good job because both him and his wife worked, by the time child care expenses were factored in (his wife had the better job) he was making about $1 and hour .
When he quit (a very crucial member of our shop) the boss though he was being "lazy"....... you decide.. $40 a week for 40 hours of your life... oh and no benefits.
So he became "Mr. mom".....
chicken or egg: society weakened by laziness or laziness caused by society.....???

[Ira]

Well, we have 18 stores, one of which is 3 miles from the college.

So in another words, no one is looking for work in your area?

Like Mag says, there must have been something wrong with how you presented it. Did you name the store? Also, customer service is one of those catch descriptions that can mean almost anything.

I've been out of work for 5 months, and receive many mailings offering me customer service work and jobs as a life insurance agent. I'm 53, and have learned a FEW things in my life:

I know that these jobs are nonsense. Low pay or no pay boiler room operations with no future or benefits. They just take you, spit you in and spit you out.

[SpecialK]

So in another words, no one is looking for work in your area?

Like Mag says, there must have been something wrong with how you presented it. Did you name the store? Also, customer service is one of those catch descriptions that can mean almost anything.

I've been out of work for 5 months, and receive many mailings offering me customer service work and jobs as a life insurance agent. I'm 53, and have learned a FEW things in my life:

I know that these jobs are nonsense. Low pay or no pay boiler room operations with no future or benefits. They just take you, spit you in and spit you out.

It's Orange County, California - not exactly a wasteland. 12% unemployment statewide.
The wording was fine. Most applicants can't read or write well, so the verbiage would make no difference :-)
Company was named.

[jeffkrol]

It's Orange County, California - not exactly a wasteland. 12% unemployment statewide.
The wording was fine. Most applicants can't read or write well, so the verbiage would make no difference :-)
Company was named.

Since CS positions are now mostly in the "third world" there is a possible psychological stigma to the job... Reword it to something like "customer liason"... see what happens
Of course if you put in "heath care benefits" you would probably get an overwhelming response.....
And add a bit to the "lazy jobless" and disenfranchised youth seems "small people" have little hope for the future.......

The economic news has been bleak for retirees and near-retirees over the past decade: Two recessions and two bear markets. The Standard & Poor's 500 index sporting an average annual return of 0.81 percent over those 10 years. A one-third decline in home values since the market peaked in 2006. Near-zero yields on safe savings.

http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/dec2010/pi20101217_544814.htm?c...rss_topStories
UNLESS your rich of course........
http://www.businessweek.com/investor/content/dec2010/pi20101215_516004.htm?c...pStories_ssi_5

Favorable Rules

For those wealthy enough to still need to worry about estate taxes, the new tax legislation is written to make it much easier to manage their fortunes. For example, individuals can easily pass their remaining tax exemptions on to their spouses after death, without creating complex trusts. Also, new rules treat gifts to children during a donor's lifetime the same as those made after death, making it easier to pass on estates before assets appreciate and incur extra taxes.

Low interest rates make this the perfect time for many clients to set up trusts like Grantor Retained Annuity Trusts, known as GRATs. In a GRAT, parents loan assets like stocks or even an interest in a private business to the trust at the lowest interest rate possible under the law, which is set each month by the IRS. If the value of those assets increases over time, the GRATs' beneficiaries reap any benefit above that interest rate. Luckily for those who set up GRATs now, interest rates are at record lows—the IRS set the December rate at 1.8 percent.

Obama and other Democrats had sought to limit the use of GRATs, but failed. "That's a wonderful technique for parents looking to pass assets on to children at nearly zero [tax rates]," says Jennifer Immel, senior wealth planner at PNC Wealth Management.

and the "new normal"

So here we are; how long will we stay? "Characterizing this as the New Normal is a misnomer and misdirection," says James Paulsen, chief investment strategist of Wells Capital Management. "There's this concept everywhere that, 'Hey, this is it. It just has to be.' " Yet already, not all the indicators are depressingly "normal," Paulsen notes, pointing out that the current economic recovery is actually stronger than the last two (in 2001 and 1991) in terms of profits, real gross domestic product growth, and job creation, even though employment remains unusually depressed. Companies are making money, though they're still not spending much of it.

Sooner or later, this normal will pass. When it does, we'll look back on developments that helped give it a peculiar flavor of its own. This is the year we got used to streaming video, unusually oppressive summers, bike-sharing, flash sales, 9.6 percent unemployment, and free shipping. It might not be much to look at, but it's our own New Normal, until the next one comes along.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/10_52/b4209015565521.htm?chan=rss_topStories_ssi_5
Some can't see the forest because of the trees...........
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/news/articles/business_news.htm

What's revealing about these responses is the chasm between feelings and facts. Congress and the Obama Administration have cut taxes by $240 billion since 2009. Growth continued without interruption in 2010 in the U.S. and most major economies. The Treasury expects to turn a $16 billion profit on the TARP rescue. Greece and Ireland may have stared into the white light of fiscal death, but they were yanked back to earth by their neighbors and are now trying to rehabilitate (with wounded fury, but—so far at least—without default). By the end of the third quarter, U.S. nonfinancial corporations were sitting on a record $436 billion in cash. Through Dec. 14, the Standard & Poor's 500-stock index was up 11 percent for the year. And Wall Street was racking up its fourth-largest profit ever, a projected $19 billion for the year, according to the New York State Comptroller's office.

So if things aren't nearly as bad as they seem, why do they seem so bad? Jobs and houses have a lot to do with it. In the U.S., 17 percent of the workforce either couldn't find employment or was surviving on part-time jobs. Their collective frustration and scrimping are contagious. Despite interest rates so low they would shock previous generations, the housing market has all the bustle of a Pompeii bazaar; there were 202,000 new homes on the market at the end of October, the fewest since June 1968. Mix in an unrelenting foreclosure crisis, in which the centuries-old concept of title was thrown into doubt by faulty record-keeping, and it's easy to understand why so many people feel like they've lost a degree of control over their lives: because they have.

The notion that trusted institutions can restore our sense of security is as worn as that 1910 yearbook. Governments can't stop leaks— of oil or information—let alone regulate behavior. Passage of the Dodd-Frank Act in July may have constrained investment banks by putting limits on proprietary trading, but as Michael Lewis wrote in this magazine, "What's really striking is how little ability the outside world retains to find out what is going on inside these places—even after we have learned that what we don't know about them can kill us." The Tea Party, which resists meaning as ferociously as it resists Ben Bernanke, makes sense when seen as an exercise in fist-shaking. Two years after hope and change, it fumed at economic abstractions such as quantitative easing and bending the curve and asked a simple question: Why can't we have our country back?...............Here's the thing: That America has been gone for years. Cheap labor and plentiful resources combined with ease of travel and communication have given emerging markets more than just a place at the table. In 2010, the U.S. added 937,000 jobs; Foxconn, the Taiwan-based maker of nearly every consumer electronic product you wanted this year, added 300,000. Fueled by gold, copper and coal, the most robust currency of the year against the dollar was the Mongolian tugrik. In India, competition for deals has become so intense that billionaire Ravi Ruia is branching out to Africa—buying coal mines in Mozambique and a Kenyan oil refinery. Competition is one of the pleasures of business and one of the foundations of America. That right hasn't been rescinded—it's been extended to people around the world. In a way, we've won. Now the game starts again

The "game" starts and apparently we're on the bench........

---

Last edited by jeffkrol; 12-19-2010 at 12:03 PM.

[Ratmagiclady]

Perhaps. Almost every civilization honors and cares for the elderly as appreciation for their lifetime of contributions and to preserve their knowledge and experience.

Yeah. Unfortunately, the 'oldsters' who have kept voting based on false ideas of 'You kids are just lazy' might be in for a rude awakening when they realize they didn't leave anything for their kids to give. However self-righteously.

It could be no clearer than in my own life. If it were to come down to *me* to take care of my parents, they'll find that certain things they let certain people tell them to believe about how to treat their own kid while saying 'Work ethic' will cost them dearly.

Those bonds have to go both ways, not just in terms of honor, but in terms of *capability,* and corporate profits and 'conservative' agendas aren't aligned with either. Blaming a generation of un and underemployed for their own situation while demanding to make it worse is the picture of short-sightedness.

[Ratmagiclady]

Since CS positions are now mostly in the "third world" there is a possible psychological stigma to the job... Reword it to something like "customer liason"... see what happens

Actually, I think that's the opposite of the right thing to do. Half the problem is that the well's poisoned by false promises and scams and circumstances.

People are expecting to see spin and scams and schemes based on marketing crap jobs if any jobs at all as wonderful opportunities. (There's always the old 'get free labor from high turnover 'training' periods' deal, for instance,)

I suggest being straight-up if one wants response. A lot of people know darn well that they need a crap job. Signs that say 'Crappy Retail Jobs In Real Stores, Honest' might go better.

Of course if you put in "heath care benefits" you would probably get an overwhelming response.....
And add a bit to the "lazy jobless" and disenfranchised youth seems "small people" have little hope for the future.......

The "game" starts and apparently we're on the bench........

There really is that. People actually generally *want* to work, and being hungrier doesn't produce miracles: What people *don't* get motivated to do is throw more effort (And often scarce resources) at 'futility.'

[newarts]

I don't know the actual statistics but I've little doubt that people are creatures of habit for the most part. Once in a groove that isn't too painful (like receiving unemployment insurance and getting by on it for many months), many won't risk effort on something new. Not all people of course, but a reasonably large fraction.

As a wild-eyed liberal this gives me pause about the long-term dole; I think I'd rather see subsidized work for pay that helps grease the economic skids for all of us. Like day-care attendants & public maintenance people. Like teacher's aids receiving simultaneous training, out-of-work trades people saving abandoned property, teaching others, etc. Wouldn't that be better than just handing out money?

The problem is how to organize such activity in a low overhead, not-too-socialistic manner while avoiding skimmers and scammers. Suggestions?

[Ira]

I think I'd rather see subsidized work for pay that helps grease the economic skids for all of us. Like day-care attendants & public maintenance people.

You can pay half the unemployed to dig ditches, and the other half to fill them. But it doesn't help the economy unless something of value is created, and in the case of these ditches, there is no value.

However, Obama's version of workfare, like the New Deal, has been labeled as socialism by the Republicans. Who are against it on principle, and also against extended unemployment benefits.

And their solution to all of this is what?

More tax cuts for the rich.

[Ash]

Good insight in your comments, Jeff.

It's definitely multi-faceted but there sure has to be some contribution to perceived laziness from employer exploitation but also employee disgruntlement with conditions of work. Eventually, though, unless there's a significant loophole in retaining unemployment benefits in the long term (such as in Australia), people will have to find work even if just to support themselves and families financially.

Perhaps with each generation there is an expectation that work is more and more a lifestyle choice, and careers are sought to be happy and passionate sources of personal gratification and satisfaction. If a job doesn't offer this, then it is less likely to attract appropriate and sufficient applicants.

[Ash]

You can pay half the unemployed to dig ditches, and the other half to fill them. But it doesn't help the economy unless something of value is created, and in the case of these ditches, there is no value.

However, Obama's version of workfare, like the New Deal, has been labeled as socialism by the Republicans. Who are against it on principle, and also against extended unemployment benefits.

And their solution to all of this is what?

More tax cuts for the rich.

I don't know the intricacies of US policy, but tax cuts for rich are a continually debated issue, also in Australia, and seem to arise at times when most believe there are other more pressing needs at hand. I believe this has been discussed here before as well: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/political-religious-discussion/125164-do-...cuts-rich.html and https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/political-religious-discussion/121279-ill-pay-more.html and https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/political-religious-discussion/121642-soc...system.htmland https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/political-religious-discussion/114574-sho...ng-effect.html (is there any topic this forum hasn't discussed ad nauseum?)

Australia has quite a liberal social welfare system, favouring the indigenous population for various reasons, but pensions are available for all for a wide variety of 'hardships':
- carers of children and unwell/disabled adults
- crisis, such as domestic violence
- special help, for example for being released from gaol or psychiatric confinement
- following bereavement of a loved one
- Disability Support Pension (a highly abused pension - from personal experience)
- Mobility Allowance
- Newstart Allowance for young people looking for work
- Sickness Allowance
- Youth Allowance and Youth disability allowance (another commonly abused service)
- Parenting payments
- Refugee and Temporary Protection Visa holders' allowances
- Child support payments
- Family Tax benefits
- Austudy and Abstudy benefits for students in tertiary institutions
... and the list goes on (see here: Payments)

It's a wonder how there's enough money in the coffers to support all this as well as all public infrastructure development and politicians' salaries. There are lots of ways people can find government support and not need to work if so desired - all they have to do is fill the paperwork required and prove their eligibility for the benefit. Human nature being what it is, why not apply to get something for nothing... no need even to dig a trench or fill it up again... doesn't bode well for those who genuinely require the assistance and are cognisant of the stigma attached to being a welfare recipient.

[Ratmagiclady]

I don't know the actual statistics but I've little doubt that people are creatures of habit for the most part. Once in a groove that isn't too painful (like receiving unemployment insurance and getting by on it for many months), many won't risk effort on something new. Not all people of course, but a reasonably large fraction.

The thing is, that situation's usually anything but comfortable: it sure doesn't help the situation to send households underwater to start dropping other households underwater with their mortgages, etc, causing more jobs to flee as more bills take the last of what's left...

The way out isn't trying to be punitive when there quite simply aren't the jobs no matter how 'motivated' people are.

As a wild-eyed liberal this gives me pause about the long-term dole; I think I'd rather see subsidized work for pay that helps grease the economic skids for all of us. Like day-care attendants & public maintenance people. Like teacher's aids receiving simultaneous training, out-of-work trades people saving abandoned property, teaching others, etc. Wouldn't that be better than just handing out money?


The problem is how to organize such activity in a low overhead, not-too-socialistic manner while avoiding skimmers and scammers. Suggestions?

The problem is that sensible ideas like bringing back the WPA and CCC were discarded *because* of people claiming it would be 'Obama's Socialist Army' or whatever stuff. They'd rather throw money at the wealthy than actually pay people for things that certainly need doing, but aren't competing with for-profit industry, anyway.

The fact is there's a lot of environmental and infrastructure work that could both employ people directly and improve the quality of life and health of the nation that the corporations just don't consider profitable, despite benefiting from what's left of it here. If they did want to do so, they wouldn't be needing more tax cuts and subsidies to consider maybe-saying-they-won't-make-it-worse.

Even creating artist grants and the like can help: people are more likely to participate in the local community's economic life is there's more to it than chain stores and pay-to-play.

The problem with a lot of the 'Well, let's create even lower-wage jobs' notions is that all it often does is take more real jobs out of the marketplace, so to speak. It's less incentive to create jobs when a company can have the work at cut-rate. (Being disabled but not *useless* I've actually looked into programs like that, light assembly and such like that: they're mostly geared around people in institutions and rehab, something that defrays the cost of those institutions, but it actually doesn't pay anything to live on: there just usually isn't much of a margin on the work done. (I was actually a *lot* sicker/weaker at the time. It's kind of nice for special needs people if done right: in younger life I did some work with severely-autistic kids and such, and part of it involved similar programs, really good for self-esteem, but it's no real substitute for the working world. If it were for profit's sake, the same work could be done with one machine and one operator, generally. )

Nonetheless, there certainly is an awful lot that could be getting done if 'employment' didn't have to be crammed into the one idea of it. I'm sure that there's plenty of room for some *co-op* type cottage industry, as opposed to just farming out tasks for various cheapness benefits. With some management and facilities and starting resources, we could at least get back to some value-added production of *something* and start back toward something less ...outsource-and-race-to-the-bottom. One of the little problems of capitalism is that it takes capital, and if a very few are sitting on all of it, it's extremely difficult to both pay one's own way and get something started at the same time. So we don't get that 'competition' and 'supply and demand' thing that's supposed to help local economies stay in balance.