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12-29-2010, 01:58 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
This is a "major" problem? How, I'm wondering, would you determine how many of these abusers there are?
It was on the news it must be true

12-29-2010, 02:04 PM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Coeurdechene Quote
i don't know one of these luxury flat, mercedes riding juggler
I think this is an urban myth too. But one popular scam is the roadside or even door-to-door "charity" collection for charities that don't exist.

QuoteOriginally posted by Coeurdechene Quote
There will always be some sort of friction between people but the things you seem to resent about punks don't seem to be a big deal (i feel it's the same problem that when older people complain about loudness of youth..)
Like I said my problem with them is that they are serious dead weight upon society and they travel here where we have serious problems and don't need them bringing new ones. As magkelly was saying, demand outstrips city and state social service budgets.

These kids are coming in and squatting in blighted houses and causing friction when the owner or the city is ready to demolish or rehab that property. Or they end up burning it down by accident, who is going to pay for that property damage?

If there is a hurricane how do you communicate with them and get them evacuated?

The problems they create are much greater than kids playing loud music, especially when you are talking about how they prey upon our ongoing recovery efforts and problems and they have come here in greater numbers since katrina.

If they want to live like feral animals because they have a problem with human society why can't they go do it in the woods not in the cities which represent society?
12-29-2010, 06:07 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
Like I said my problem with them is that they are serious dead weight upon society and they travel here where we have serious problems and don't need them bringing new ones. As magkelly was saying, demand outstrips city and state social service budgets.
Don't know "your" punks but here we don't demand anything..we don't usually use social services, very litle health care (just if you are about to die really:P), not much subsidies, we don't use much public money..and we pay taxes too (even if we don't want to...we all pay indirect taxes..)...Magkelly was talking about ill homeless..not the same as punks..
Squating unused houses, specially if they belong to people who speculate with them, is something moral..there is values involved, you may not share it but it's a way of empowering people and showing they don't need to be given what they need and deserve (housing for instance), they just have to take it from those who accumulate it and keep it vacant immorally..
If there's a hurricane we don't need father state to take care of us..Autoresponsability.
QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
especially when you are talking about how they prey upon our ongoing recovery efforts and problems and they have come here in greater numbers since katrina
I find it difficult to believe this..i know people who have done very good things...Squats are like neuralgic centers for this transient people and i've had lots of them in my house..most of them were involved in some social project.
You should look to whose fault the disaster katrina was...you'll find that it's not punks the real problem.
Last but not least there is no place to live free from state's oppression..you can go to the countryside but nothing assures you they won't come and kick you out (like Itoiz..or for political need of an "enemy" like in Tarmac..). No forest where you will be certain they won't want to cut down...we live in the cities for a period of time where we try to do things that change something, we try to build nets on which we can rely, we try to do something for the community too.
And we don't live like feral animals or have a problem "with human society" , we just don't share the same values you have. And we have problems with some particular societies. You ought to read more about our ideologies and values, or look out for the things we do and propose...Vaneigem's book "the revolution of everyday life" is a good one for instance.
Maybe you are just using them as a scapegoat? you sound very resenting to some people who are far better than some respected social groups. (i think that those who have turned the economy into a giant casino or those who defend the interest of the richest are much more to blame of New Orleans problems..)
12-29-2010, 06:30 PM   #19
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Ah, the comforting myth of the 'filthy rich homeless.'

Yah.

12-29-2010, 08:11 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Coeurdechene Quote
we don't use much public money..and we pay taxes too (even if we don't want to...we all pay indirect taxes..)
The resources consumed fighting the fire they caused will easily exceed the indirect taxes paid by these kids (I suppose your talking about sales tax on items that are actually purchased and not "liberated"). When you add the expenses for the coroner to hunt down dental records and find out who they were, there were two survivors and so far they have only identified one victim the only local (a drug dealer who catered to gutter punks). The survivors don't even know the names of the people they were staying with. Sad.

I think you either overestimate the amount of taxes the homeless pay or underestimate the cost of the expensive public services they consume on rare occasions.

QuoteOriginally posted by Coeurdechene Quote
Squating unused houses, specially if they belong to people who speculate with them, is something moral
Speculation is not really the cause of unused homes in New Orleans, a natural disaster that made them uninhabitable is. Some of the buildings that remain blighted are that way because the owner has been unable to come back and rebuild either because they are old and frail or they were uninsured and haven't been able to save enough to rebuild. Or they were insured and are still in the process of suing their insurer because they did not agree on how much their claim is worth. Or the original owner has died since the storm and the house is tied up in a succession. Or it was a historical property and they have preservationist restrictions on how they can rebuild. Or they have just moved on and they care about the building anymore but the expropriation process takes a long time.

But no one has done speculative development in the New Orleans real estate market for about 40 years. Some speculators did come in to buy property after the storm but they have torn their buildings down.

Punks and anarchists have been protesting attempts to streamline the rules to make the expropriation process faster. Currently, fines for code violation have to mount up and a tax bill has to lapse before the process even starts which takes at least a year. Then the city attempts to contact the owner and give them a time to respond. If the owner can't be found they have to make a public notice in the paper and give them time to respond. Then they offer the house as a tax sale, but if you purchase the property in this way the original owner has 3 years to pay their back taxes and penalties and reclaim their property so no one in their right mind would put any money into improving the property until that period passes. A property has to be blighted for at least 5 years before a truly blighted and abandoned property has changed hands and someone willing to fixed it has clear title.

QuoteOriginally posted by Coeurdechene Quote
If there's a hurricane we don't need father state to take care of us..Autoresponsability.
So without a reliable method of personal transportation they will be able to evacuate? I think they will either end up in the city paid for evacuation for the elderly or squatting in an unsafe shelter. Getting people with the means to evacuate to do so is hard enough without worrying about this crowd's safety.

QuoteOriginally posted by Coeurdechene Quote
Maybe you are just using them as a scapegoat?
They have been a growing presence since the storm and I think that they are just attracted to the urban wastelandscape.
12-30-2010, 02:01 AM   #21
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Halifax for instance, is the largest city in the Canadian Atlantic Provinces, That includes Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick. Its core has about 175 k people.. Reasonably good Social Assistance programs are in place and low or no cost housing is supplied. Although not allowed, men share better accommodations provided to single mothers. Social workers advise those women to have other illegitimate children in order to get increased benefits. There are a number of prime spots, at intersections etc. for panhandlers. They are easily identified and those "beggars" are easily traced and/or followed. There are others, in the downtown, who are strung out or suffer from mental illness. Such people can only be held in facilities, in normal circumstances, for three days. In such an environment it is fairly easy to discover the abuse of the welfare system. None of these people want to work. They are quite satisfied to reap the profits provided and "use" the system. Help for abused children is likewise provided in Group Homes, etc.
12-30-2010, 05:06 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
on rare occasions.
that's it..on rare occasions..and no..after a lifetime of taxes i'm pretty sure we payed enough...
i would say they didn't ask to be identified, and that you don't need to know the name to know the person...i live with 13 people and don't know the family names of most of them...
As for the firefighters, houses sometimes burn..not only squats..but only squats make the news because the news like some social scapegoats, they like social tension and this kind of incident can be used as fuel.
We are forced to live here, don't blame us for the expenses the state takes on our behalf...
QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
Some of the buildings that remain blighted are that way because the owner has been unable to come back and rebuild either because they are old and frail or they were uninsured and haven't been able to save enough to rebuild. Or they were insured and are still in the process of suing their insurer because they did not agree on how much their claim is worth. Or the original owner has died since the storm and the house is tied up in a succession. Or it was a historical property and they have preservationist restrictions on how they can rebuild. Or they have just moved on and they care about the building anymore but the expropriation process takes a long time.
As you say there are other actors as insurance who are far much more to blame than people who squat ages-long abandoned houses...you keep saying it's gutterpunks that cause trouble, i keep seeing there are other people to blame for the disaster (it could have been prevented..but someone didn't do what he had to...).
QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
Punks and anarchists have been protesting attempts to streamline the rules to make the expropriation process faster. Currently, fines for code violation have to mount up and a tax bill has to lapse before the process even starts which takes at least a year. Then the city attempts to contact the owner and give them a time to respond. If the owner can't be found they have to make a public notice in the paper and give them time to respond. Then they offer the house as a tax sale, but if you purchase the property in this way the original owner has 3 years to pay their back taxes and penalties and reclaim their property so no one in their right mind would put any money into improving the property until that period passes. A property has to be blighted for at least 5 years before a truly blighted and abandoned property has changed hands and someone willing to fixed it has clear title.
Expropriation may not be the right solution..look at Lisbon for example, half the inner city abandoned and people living in "cité" type of buildings in the outskirts.. Not everything has to be fixed by father state, those abandonments can be made livable and it's only a crooked market sense that counsels to demolish and rebuild..usually selling the new buildings at a prohibitive price...there are some of the reasons to protest..That time opens up an opportunity to build something different.

QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
So without a reliable method of personal transportation they will be able to evacuate? I think they will either end up in the city paid for evacuation for the elderly or squatting in an unsafe shelter. Getting people with the means to evacuate to do so is hard enough without worrying about this crowd's safety.
No one asked you to worry...that's the point..you don't know and you underestimate our capabilities..i've lived in "unsafe" places for years..it turns out they were only unsafe much more for commodity reasons than real risk...and then i've done some "unsafe" things and if done properly there's no real risk either. As for an hypothetical hurricane, the time you got to prepare yourself is enough. No one asked if we wanted those services just as no one asked if we wanted to live in this societies, we were forced to..so stop blaming society's choices on us. And you are inflating the real danger out of fears, the real "bother" out of isolated cases..
Also there are some boarded houses that are in a livable state, that were not affected by the storm and were boarded so they could enact some urbanism projects without paying the due costs and following the due processes.

Sparkle charges again with the rich beggar...Even if it was a prime stop you won't be able to mantain the luxury lifestyle you commented...And yep some of the people who ask for money (usually jugglers) are not in despair, in hunger need (because in western societies it's quite hard to starve if you forget some stupid things we were taught...food is easily found)..but that is very far away from the mercedes and luxury flats...
Some jugglers may use the money for traveling, others may buy things to do music, most use it for little things you have to buy...And usually the only ones who are willing to "use" the system are junkies...most of us won't have the patience nor the need to stand all the bureaucratic procedures. Damn i was entitled for an excellence scholarship because of my grades in the university and didn't apply for it because i didn't need it and i didn't want to follow the bureaucratic procedure (and i'm not the only one like me who has done such a thing...usually we only take them when we want to travel.).

12-30-2010, 06:55 AM   #23
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I have simply been trying to explain how difficult it is, here, in our experience, to differentiate between the "real" needy and the hoaxers who have turned most people away from providing any assistance. The hoaxers even chase the others away. That being said, we have yet to find any takers, whatsoever, willing to e.g. mow our lawn, in exchange for food and or money. That applies to most of the younger generation. Just this morning, a father in his car, asked if we had any bottles or recyclables to give him for his kid's school project to provide soccer gear. His kid was too busy with other "activities" to collect himself or shovel our snow!
12-30-2010, 07:18 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sparkle Quote
Most, street people of all ages, here in eastern Canada commit petty crimes to get well fed etc. in jail for the winter.
Wow, here you are again,pretending to know something about everything.
12-30-2010, 07:36 AM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
this is just so blatantly wrong. Yes there are scammers out there, but they are few and far between (BTW the most common scam for this sort is not begging as a street person, it's "my wallet was stolen.... i need to get to a job interview.... usually a long story and they are usually reasonably well dressed and groomed
Don't confuse these people with street people. As I pointed out earlier i have been there, it's not a pretty life, 99% of the people there are not there by choice, It's difficult and demeaning and most of us are only 3-4 paychecks away from being there ourselves. So before you judge them picture yourself and your spouse if you are married both losing your jobs in an economic downturn. then one of you gets ill with no Medical. How long until you lose your home,and things start deteriorating beyond your ability to control them.
I have a friend who has her CPA, spent years in the entertainment industry as a production accountant. She has been unemployed now for 1 1/2 years, she has broadened her search but in reality I'm sure she is no longer interviewing well as she is resigned to never working in her field again. An employers must be thinking whats wrong with her. If it wasn't for the fact she was debt free owned he apartment and had a good amount put aside for retirement she'd be there already. Many are
#1 to that Eddie.It seems Sparkle knows something about everything if you read her various posts.I sincerely hope she is not married for the sake of all men.
12-30-2010, 08:19 AM   #26
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yep..i wonder where she reads all that stuff...
I'm sure she believes prisons are places where they treat you well, "better than you deserve"...where you get a roof and warm beds and food...I can bet she hasn't been 3 km near one but still thinks she knows how it is to be in there...
NO ONE WANTS TO GO TO PRISON...anyone prefers to freeze in the streets than to do time.
I know how prisons are, i studied law and specialized in penal, i' ve seen them and i've known people inside.
None of them stands it...and none of them wanted to be there.
12-30-2010, 08:30 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Coeurdechene Quote
As you say there are other actors as insurance who are far much more to blame than people who squat ages-long abandoned houses...you keep saying it's gutterpunks that cause trouble, i keep seeing there are other people to blame for the disaster (it could have been prevented..but someone didn't do what he had to...).
I was saying that there are numerous reasons why properties here are still unoccupied and blighted and although I don't know of anyone who has done a survey of the cause for blight property-by-property, I would be astounded if such a survey found that "speculation" by investors buying up or building up new developments in the hopes of selling them accounted for more then 1% of blight.

The last house on my block that still hasn't been fixed is still that way because of a succession. The owners were an elderly couple and the father died shortly after the storm and the mother came back started working on the house and died in 2007. Now the house is owned by 8 people, 4 children from that couple who grew up in the house each own 3/16 of the house and 4 from the father's first marriage each own 1/16 of the house. None of them are in a financial position where they can afford to buy out their siblings share and fix the house, none need the house to live in, and the father's children from his first marriage are hostile towards the majority owners. In order for the house to sell they need all 8 to agree and any 1 can block acceptance of any offer. I tried to buy the house from them and they accepted but after $1000 in legal expenses to me we found that 3 of the 1/16 owners have debts and judgments against them that exceed the proceeds they would receive and would need to get their creditors to agree to how the money would be split. One of the 3/16 owners had problems with debts too but her share would cover the debts and leave her some money too. Now the half brothers and sisters want 50% more than the offer they previously accepted (which was already about 10% more than the fair market value of the house). That house is never going to sell until their family issues get sorted out and the ownership gets consolidated down to 1-4 partial owners but that would probably require them paying the 25% owners 30-40% of the value of the house.

The point is that the blighted houses are not owned by some mysterious greedy fat cats, they are owned by ordinary people that simply can't afford to fix them into a condition that is inhabitable, at least not inhabitable by someone who wants a house with running water, electricity, and a roof that doesn't leak.

QuoteOriginally posted by Coeurdechene Quote
Expropriation may not be the right solution.
In some cases it is the only solution. If someone moves away and drops off the face of the earth (either dies or otherwise is difficult to locate) the city doesn't always have a way to know what happened. In america, property rights are protected by the US constitution and no person can be deprived of their property except by due process of law. If anyone tried to move in and improve the condition of the property before they have clear title, it is quite easy for the original owner to come in and reclaim that property and reap the hard work done by someone else on their property.

QuoteOriginally posted by Coeurdechene Quote
No one asked you to worry...that's the point..you don't know and you underestimate our capabilities..i've lived in "unsafe" places for years..it turns out they were only unsafe much more for commodity reasons than real risk...and then i've done some "unsafe" things and if done properly there's no real risk either. As for an hypothetical hurricane, the time you got to prepare yourself is enough.
When I say unsafe, I am not talking about just a place with faulty wiring or lead pipes and no electricity or water... I am talking about a place that has toxic mold or is structurally unsound. I am quite certain that squatters still have the same immune system as the rest of the human race which is not designed to deal with mold spores. Correct me if I am wrong but there aren't many squatters out there with degrees in civil engineering that can determine whether or not a building is strong enough to withstand 200 kph winds or survey the land to see if it is above flood elevation.

There is nothing hypothetical about the hurricanes I speak of and the risks of staying for an indirect hit, even well prepared, are great and can be unsurvivable including tornadoes, flying debris, and building collapse. There are always a couple of isolated incidents where stuff gets destroyed or damaged but it isn't a situation which should be taken lightly in any shelter of opportunity. In the worst case scenarios they will be more people to rescue from rooftops, they will be suffering from dehydration or diseases from drinking dirty water, or they will be shot on sight as looters. Its just not as simple as saying don't worry about us cuz we'll take care of ourselves.
12-30-2010, 08:34 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Coeurdechene Quote
where you get a roof and warm beds and food.
Don't forget that in Sparkle's prison room service leaves mints on your fluffed pillows everyday.
12-30-2010, 09:39 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by kryss Quote
.It seems Sparkle knows something about everything if you read her various posts.I sincerely hope she is not married for the sake of all men.
YaY...yet another thread that starts off with intelligent discussion and sharing of opinions/ideas/thoughts then begins the long slow degeneration into personal attacks eventually leading to death and a closed thread....I can hear the Reaper now folks.
12-30-2010, 10:57 AM   #30
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Nothing new here. As an old hippie, we left our comfortable middle class homes and hit the road in the 60's. The glamor wears off after a while. I think the younger generation somewhat idolizes the 60's and tries to capture that independent energy we had. Chris McCandless has become a modern cult hero and many colleges devote a semester class that studies his life. You can trace this back to the 50's. Most of us made Jack Kerouac our hero after reading "On the Road." Jon Krakauer's very good read "Into the Wild" tries to bring a little understanding into this mindset.
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