[mikemike]

Recently a group of 8 crusties (aka gutter punks or faux snow birds) burned up to crispies while squatting in an abandoned warehouse here in New Orleans. These kids have become a fixture of the city and are universally disliked by the locals because they are almost all voluntarily homeless transient youths with trust funds from other parts of the country who want to live a bohemian lifestyle by begging on the streets in the second poorest in the union and we have enough problems with local poverty without these kids coming in and pretending to be poor.

I was just wondering if this was a universal problem or something unique to my city because of our acceptance for eccentricity. It does get a lot worse in the winter when I think large groups drift south where it is warmer so I am guessing they are everywhere or at least in a lot of other places too.

[Sparkle]

Most, street people of all ages, here in eastern Canada commit petty crimes to get well fed etc. in jail for the winter.

[boriscleto]

Most, street people of all ages, here in eastern Canada commit petty crimes to get well fed etc. in jail for the winter.

That's going to be the norm for most of the US as well. This is because cities have begun to criminalize being homeless or even just sitting on the sidewalk. To get into a shelter or to get housing aid you can't have a criminal record so cities can get out of funding shelters or housing aid by making the homeless criminals before they can get the aid. The latest city to do this was "commie-pinko" San Franciso. Mayor Newsome was offended by the sight of homeless people while walking down Haight Street with his daughter.

[Coeurdechene]

Mayor Newsome was offended by the sight of homeless people while walking down Haight Street with his daughter.

Damn they should experience living on the streets before judging...narrow minded hipocritical bastards.

And punks exists because some of the younger people don't feel identified with societie's values..
some are poser who, as you said, are middle/high class youngs who want to experience "bohemian" lifestyle..Lots of them are people disgusted by the way things work, not posers...and are seeking for a different way of living, a different way of associating with others..And yep we're everywhere (although i don't consider myself a punk anymore, that was an adolescent need of belonging to something, now i'm happy to live differently..)..Those who stay long enough and believe in alternative and change will know comunes, will know people doing very valuable things and some positive projects.
If you resent that they ask for money don't give them any..problem solved. Most will get tired of asking for it anyway and will find better thing to do with their time, since they will probably start to live with less and less needs.
And stop generalizing and seeing them as a problem, there are very valuable people among them
(just as when the hardcore freaks started the diggers group in Haight-Ashbury in the 60s.), just as there are valuable "normal" people.
Besides some of those "problematic" people worked on social projects in the New Orleans catastrophe. Punks usually start as a rejection and as a aesthetic choice but it tends to deepen and create individuals involved,concious and ready to do cooperative things for change.

[mikemike]

Damn they should experience living on the streets before judging...narrow minded hipocritical bastards.

And punks exists because some of the younger people don't feel identified with societie's values..
some are poser who, as you said, are middle/high class youngs who want to experience "bohemian" lifestyle..Lots of them are people disgusted by the way things work, not posers...and are seeking for a different way of living, a different way of associating with others..And yep we're everywhere (although i don't consider myself a punk anymore, that was an adolescent need of belonging to something, now i'm happy to live differently..)..Those who stay long enough and believe in alternative and change will know comunes, will know people doing very valuable things and some positive projects.
If you resent that they ask for money don't give them any..problem solved. Most will get tired of asking for it anyway and will find better thing to do with their time, since they will probably start to live with less and less needs.
And stop generalizing and seeing them as a problem, there are very valuable people among them
(just as when the hardcore freaks started the diggers group in Haight-Ashbury in the 60s.), just as there are valuable "normal" people.
Besides some of those "problematic" people worked on social projects in the New Orleans catastrophe. Punks usually start as a rejection and as a aesthetic choice but it tends to deepen and create individuals involved,concious and ready to do cooperative things for change.

Living on the streets for the experience of living on the streets is not a choice most people would make and it seems a bit narrow minded to think that everyone should spend time living on the streets.

My problem is with people who have the resources and ability to provide for themselves not doing so and instead traveling here to live on our streets, ask for our money, consume the services of our city and our local charities. My city has an abundance of problems and the gutterpunks create a lot more problems than they solve. I certainly do not give them money and I try not to give them too hard of a time but their lifestyle is not a "victimless" one.

The intersection near one of my favorite resturaunts for lunch is a popular panhandling site for gutterpunks and every time I go there I usually see that when they take a break from begging because the light is green or traffic is slow they break out their iPads or cell phones. I take offense to that because every dollar someone gives to them is a dollar that could have gone to someone who is actually needy. They also like to keep dogs, which are as poorly kept as they are, so whenever my wife and I go out to eat in the french quarter I always bring along a couple of heart guard pills for the gutterpunk dogs who I actually have some compassion for.

I know that some groups like Common Ground (an anarchist commune of punks set up as a non-profit... ironic I know) have done lots of work for the rebuilding the community but so have groups like the Mennonites and the Lutherans but you don't see them littering the streets playing busted instruments poorly and emitting BO. And my bike shop is staffed by punks, but they actually shower and have jobs so I like those punks.

[magkelly]

I don't really care about the transient kids. I've fed a few when I could afford to. They come and go and they're relatively harmless, but unless you've seen the homeless problem in SF and cities like it I wouldn't presume to judge Newsom quite so harshly.

I lived in SF for several years and the homeless there are everywhere. You can't go a block without several people asking you for change and there are several blocks which are basically homeless town squares/hotels where they congregate in large masses to wash in the fountains, eat, sell whatever they can scavenge, and sleep on the pavement there. The reek of their urine and feces can be smelled for blocks because none of the local places will let them use their facilities because there are simply so many of the homeless in the area it's not feasible or safe.

I've personally been physically and verbally harassed by some of the men just walking down the street to a job or school. I've had nasty threats made against me for just saying I didn't have any change to spare at the moment. I've more than one guy try to feel me up or make crude suggestions to me. Many of these people aren't just transients looking for a warmer climate. They're mentally ill people that the state has no jurisdiction over and no money to help, criminals released from the state prison system that have nowhere to go, and hard core substance abusers who are out there doing anything they can to get the $$$ for their next fix.

A few street kids standing on a street corner begging for hamburgers or hustling I can handle. They're not into hurting anyone except for maybe themselves, but those kids are maybe 10% of the homeless in places like SF and it's the rest of the homeless that are giving places like SF pause and causing them to enact such seemingly brutal laws.

I've done my share of working with the street ministries. Fact is people have tried to help. The big cities though, they just can't afford to on the same scale anymore. There are too many homeless and cities are going broke. Social services are being cut back. They just don't have the budgets anymore to help as many of the homeless mentally ill as they used to. That means more people on the streets and while some of them may be displaced workers and families people you can help, the greater majority of the people that are causing problems on the streets are not.

I can't speak for NO. I would imagine that after a tragedy like Hurricane Katrina their homeless situation is quite a bit different than say NYC's or SF. But I've been out there on the streets trying to help in both of those big cities and let me tell you it's not so easy a task trying to help as you might think and even those helping are wary of the situation as it is now.

Friend of mine, a street minister, nearly lost his life about 3 years ago because he couldn't get away from a homeless guy fast enough when he went violent. Another volunteer I know, a woman who was an angel to the homeless for many years quit outright when one of the very men she'd spent time helping tried to sexually molest her. The other day, local to where I am now, a homeless guy walked up to another guy standing at a bus shelter, asked him for some change, and when he refused the homeless guy stabbed him.

I've actually been doing street work since the late 80's. Up till I went to live in SF I never worried much about being out there. The people who came out there to help with the blankets and the soup and such we were usually treated very well by those we tried to help, but ask any homeless aid worker and they'll tell you it's not nearly so safe for them to reach out to the homeless as it used to be. Me, I still help in the soup kitchen, in the shelters sometimes, but as a woman I stay off the streets themselves now.

When I can walk down a public street in a major city and have some guy physically intimidate me threaten to hurt me just because I don't happen to have an extra dollar in my pocket for him? Then I'd say it IS time for laws like those. No, they're not very charitable laws, but there are good reasons sometimes for them being enacted. Some of these people are no real threat to the places in which they live or the people who live there, but there are too many homeless people on the streets now who's actions are not nearly so benign.

In the end you can only help those who want to be helped. Unfortunately a great many of these people do NOT want your help. They only want your money, your food, and your non-interference with the life they're leading. Well, far be it from me to say they can't live anyway they like, but when I have to live in the same city and I can't walk down the street safely because of the situation then I think it is time to do something. Even if that something isn't necessarily politically correct something has to be done.

We can't just leave the situation alone and hope for the best. All the blankets and soup in the world won't help a lot of the people out there. You can't get them into what programs are left either. They're so far gone they're dangerous and not only to themselves. It's sad but it's also very true and I don't blame the cities for trying to legislate around the problem. They're going broke, they're exasperated with the situation and they've tried to help, mostly to no avail.

There are THOUSANDS of people in SF, Newsom's city, walking around, begging, urinating, doing drugs, fighting and even having sex in public places.
I've seen it. I've worked among it. It's not pretty. It's not so easily fixed and it unfortunately isn't just a "nuisance" situation anymore.

It's a major problem for most big cities and as more and more people lose their shirts and end up on the streets the strain on what limited resources that still exist makes it that much worse. That one 1 homeless guy/gal you'd see regularly stationed on the corner has become a whole league of them.

What else can they do really at this point? No one wants to live in city that's become one big sewer, be mugged, or be hurt because of someone not being in a mental facility where they belong. A small group of homeless people usually isn't a major problem but the homeless population in some of the bigger cities literally rivals that in some of the neighborhoods.

Living in a place like that for a few years? It's enough to make the most sympathetic person on the planet truly cynical after a while.

Damn they should experience living on the streets before judging...narrow minded hipocritical bastards.
\

[eddie1960]

Damn they should experience living on the streets before judging...narrow minded hipocritical bastards.

And punks exists because some of the younger people don't feel identified with societie's values..
some are poser who, as you said, are middle/high class youngs who want to experience "bohemian" lifestyle..Lots of them are people disgusted by the way things work, not posers...and are seeking for a different way of living, a different way of associating with others..And yep we're everywhere (although i don't consider myself a punk anymore, that was an adolescent need of belonging to something, now i'm happy to live differently..)..Those who stay long enough and believe in alternative and change will know comunes, will know people doing very valuable things and some positive projects.
If you resent that they ask for money don't give them any..problem solved. Most will get tired of asking for it anyway and will find better thing to do with their time, since they will probably start to live with less and less needs.
And stop generalizing and seeing them as a problem, there are very valuable people among them
(just as when the hardcore freaks started the diggers group in Haight-Ashbury in the 60s.), just as there are valuable "normal" people.
Besides some of those "problematic" people worked on social projects in the New Orleans catastrophe. Punks usually start as a rejection and as a aesthetic choice but it tends to deepen and create individuals involved,concious and ready to do cooperative things for change.

I will also add (having lived on the streets myself at one point) many of the kids who are on the streets are there because they are escaping a home life that is abusive, they were thrown out by their parents, in some cases they are escaping from a really poor foster system. sure there are a few trust fund punks who are there in large part to rebel a bit before returning to a life that is more privileged, however i found most of them disappeared as soon as the weather got bad they didn't emigrate south
I have also found as a group punks are very proactive in getting involved and helping in a community. Now if you are speaking about drunks who migrate south in the winter that's different.
In toronto we see a spike of street people in summer. and for sure some of the summer ones are trust fund kids. (so was joe strummer, and when I met him in 76 he was living in a squat a few blocks from the one I was living in)

[eddie1960]

They're mentally ill people that the state has no jurisdiction over and no money to help, criminals released from the state prison system that have nowhere to go, and hard core substance abusers who are out there doing anything they can to get the $$$ for their next fix.
This is the core of the true issue. Even in a country where we have universal health care available, we also have laws for patients rights that allow them to refuse treatment and leave the hospital (in our case it isn't just budget cuts putting them out there) once out they stop taking their anti psychotics/starts using again/... and it leads to many of the issues you bring up. the reason so many of these people end up in large cities is they initially came for the support networks in many cases and if they were in small towns there was none. My mother was schizophrenic and I lived with it since i was 11 until her death a couple of years ago. it is very challenging for the families to keep anyone who has psychotic episodes on the program, and when they derail it is a struggle to get them back into treatment unless you can prove they are a danger to themselves or others or be persuasive enough to convince them to sign in themselves before they are too far gone.
Unfortunately this cannot just be foisted back on families it is an issue that needs government involvement and support. when Gov't cut budgets and cut funding to the social agencies that help this is the result. That and more people end up in prison rather than in treatment because it's easier to lock them up for a few years without proper treatment and set them loose again than it is to focus on the core issue. These people need medical attention and follow up from social agencies. This cost money and is a good investment. Realistically this cost less than jailing people in the long run, but being tough on law and order plays better with voters than being sympathetic to the lowest echelons of society and people suffering mental illness

[eddie1960]

They also like to keep dogs, which are as poorly kept as they are, so whenever my wife and I go out to eat in the french quarter I always bring along a couple of heart guard pills for the gutterpunk dogs who I actually have some compassion for.

I know that some groups like Common Ground (an anarchist commune of punks set up as a non-profit... ironic I know) have done lots of work for the rebuilding the community but so have groups like the Mennonites and the Lutherans but you don't see them littering the streets playing busted instruments poorly and emitting BO. And my bike shop is staffed by punks, but they actually shower and have jobs so I like those punks.

Most punks i know treat their dogs better than most people. I know many who when they collect money it goes first to feeding the dogs and making sure they are in good health before they get anything for themselves. Now I can't speak for New Orleans punks but it is generally true here in Toronto. Are they a nuisance.... sometimes but then i find arrogant pricks in their big SUVs yapping on the phone and running me off the road when i cycle to work a bigger nuisance
like all communities there are bad apples, and funnily enough I managed to hold down a full time job the entire time I was homeless as a youth (for about 6 months over the winter until i managed to save enough to get an apartment, I should have come south, Toronto in winter is not a time to be homeless)
the emitting BO BTW tends to be a side effect of having nowhere to wash your self and your clothes. Not impossible when you are living on the street but let me tell you not very bloody easy either

[Sparkle]

A major problem, in this part of the woods, is that so-called "homeless", use signs, collect while street traffic is stopped etc. They then, when it is time to leave for the day, go around a corner and drive home, in a Mercedes e.g., to a luxury apartment shared with other hustlers. They get tax free money (est. $75K/yr), live better than most of us and spoil things for the truly needy. This has been confirmed by some local news reporters who followed them unnoticed.

[Coeurdechene]

Living on the streets for the experience of living on the streets is not a choice most people would make and it seems a bit narrow minded to think that everyone should spend time living on the streets.

It wasn't what i was saying or implying..what i was trying to say is that you don't know why people have found themselves living on the streets..you know nothing about them and how they ended there, it's a harsh thing and people shouldn't judge by the looks of it..most have issues unresolved that just get worse and worse by living in the street..and finally most of them are just bystanders, people who have been beaten down by our society and how it works.
I would never wish to no one to spend time on the streets, but i find it's awfully easy for those who haven't lived it to judge.(maybe knowing it would make more empathic people, people who would want to adrees the problem from it's roots..and even if this could happen i would never want no one to spend time living in the streets..).


And Magkelly those laws won't solve the problem..they will just drive away those people, who are in need, further, to marginal places of the city where the "normal people" won't see them. where they will be tolerated and left on their own..if so much ill people are in the streets it's because we as a society have made some very poor choices, some very selfish choices, we have cut down any public mental health institution (at least here in Spain..) and are criminalizing them to get them off the streets. Here most of the people who have mental health problems end up in jail..where they don't belong and where their situation only becomes worse. We have decided not to solve the problems at the base of this social decay and are trying to make it disappear by outlawing it. This will lead to put more effort and resources in prison system and law enforcement while maintaining a vicious circle.
The solution will never come out of the repressive spiral our societies have chosen but out of a profound change or at least a reform of the system. The way we are going looks a lot more to something that will end on a "limpieza social" phenomenon.
But homeless are a different topic than gutter punks a much more pressing and difficult one...

Transient kids can be annoying, lots will end that phase and enter mainstream, some will move to other, much more useful things..
Damn no "lifestyle" is a victimless one..not yours not mine..normal lifestyle has an impact on how the world is organized, so we can consume cheap products some people have to lead slavish lifes..
We decide how to live and we all contribute to how the world is shaped, we all have an impact on how other people live..and gutter punks seem to have a fairly harmless impact when it comes to your reality. They can be annoying..just as drivers can be annoying to those who walk or ride a bike..There will always be some sort of friction between people but the things you seem to resent about punks don't seem to be a big deal (i feel it's the same problem that when older people complain about loudness of youth..) and that lifestyle may lead some of them to do some useful, some cooperative and generous things...if those little annoyances is the price to pay so that some may grow, mature and turn into positive social minded individuals i feel it's a fair trade.
If it's the spare change that someone in "real" need missed the worst of it maybe you should consider that it is not through charity that those in need will stop being in that sad state. Its providing and building a cooperative society, charity will never eliminate poverty it only makes us feel better about the fact that we are doing nothing to change and erase the roots of it.

[mikemike]

Most punks i know treat their dogs better than most people. I know many who when they collect money it goes first to feeding the dogs and making sure they are in good health before they get anything for themselves. Now I can't speak for New Orleans punks but it is generally true here in Toronto.

In tropical climates, mosquitoes carry a parasite called heartworms which infects dogs and eventually kills them after a lot of suffering but it can be prevented easily. The dogs are not going unfed but it is vital if you have a dog in this climate, especially an outside dog that will definitely be exposed to mosquitoes, to stay on top of their heartworm meds because the treatment is expensive and extremely painful for the dogs (arsenic based medicine is needed to kill the worms and the treatment lasts at least 6 months). They usually keep their dogs fed but they definitely don't keep them healthy, I have a friend that works for the SPCA and she regularly see sick dogs come in with advanced heartworms after living under the care of crusties.

[Coeurdechene]

The emitting BO BTW tends to be a side effect of having nowhere to wash your self and your clothes. Not impossible when you are living on the street but let me tell you not very bloody easy either

And much more difficult when public bath houses are shut down to move some of the homeless to other areas..

A major problem, in this part of the woods, is that so-called "homeless", use signs, collect while street traffic is stopped etc. They then, when it is time to leave for the day, go around a corner and drive home, in a Mercedes e.g., to a luxury apartment shared with other hustlers. They get tax free money (est. $75K/yr), live better than most of us and spoil things for the truly needy. This has been confirmed by some local news reporters who followed them unnoticed.

this looks like cheap demagogy..i know a large portion of people who juggle around while travelling, and some juggle to buy things like musical instruments (since we don't buy food or pay rent we use the money for other things..) but i don't know one of these luxury flat, mercedes riding jugglers...they sure have to make a lot of "spare" 50 dollar bills to mantain that lifestyle...


Stop resenting harmless people and start looking for the roots of our social problems...hating the different, feeling deceived by people who have different lifestyle and values sure is easier than trying to fix our societies..but it's not helpful.

[eddie1960]

A major problem, in this part of the woods, is that so-called "homeless", use signs, collect while street traffic is stopped etc. They then, when it is time to leave for the day, go around a corner and drive home, in a Mercedes e.g., to a luxury apartment shared with other hustlers. They get tax free money (est. $75K/yr), live better than most of us and spoil things for the truly needy. This has been confirmed by some local news reporters who followed them unnoticed.

this is just so blatantly wrong. Yes there are scammers out there, but they are few and far between (BTW the most common scam for this sort is not begging as a street person, it's "my wallet was stolen.... i need to get to a job interview.... usually a long story and they are usually reasonably well dressed and groomed
Don't confuse these people with street people. As I pointed out earlier i have been there, it's not a pretty life, 99% of the people there are not there by choice, It's difficult and demeaning and most of us are only 3-4 paychecks away from being there ourselves. So before you judge them picture yourself and your spouse if you are married both losing your jobs in an economic downturn. then one of you gets ill with no Medical. How long until you lose your home,and things start deteriorating beyond your ability to control them.
I have a friend who has her CPA, spent years in the entertainment industry as a production accountant. She has been unemployed now for 1 1/2 years, she has broadened her search but in reality I'm sure she is no longer interviewing well as she is resigned to never working in her field again. An employers must be thinking whats wrong with her. If it wasn't for the fact she was debt free owned he apartment and had a good amount put aside for retirement she'd be there already. Many are

[GeneV]

A major problem, in this part of the woods, is that so-called "homeless", use signs, collect while street traffic is stopped etc. They then, when it is time to leave for the day, go around a corner and drive home, in a Mercedes e.g., to a luxury apartment shared with other hustlers. They get tax free money (est. $75K/yr), live better than most of us and spoil things for the truly needy. This has been confirmed by some local news reporters who followed them unnoticed.

This is a "major" problem? How, I'm wondering, would you determine how many of these abusers there are?