[Colbyt]

Neither Obama, Palin or guns are to blame. Some sick turd did the job.

I did not watch Pastor Steve but if he is praying for something like that he is s sick turd also.

[jogiba]

Neither Obama, Palin or guns are to blame. Some sick turd did the job.

I did not watch Pastor Steve but if he is praying for something like that he is s sick turd also.

Palin, another sick turd

[ChatMechant]

That's reality and most politicians in Europe do that (at lest in Russia that I know for sure). And in those countries there's pretty much outright ban on firearms like pistols.

Wow, that would lead to trial in many countries in europe

America was built by a large population of gun-loving, religious psychopaths.
It's the same then as it was today. the people who committed those atrocities are no different than people today. the holocaust could happen now as easily as it did then. all it takes is to dehumanize your enemies. or actually, convince the ignorant masses to dehumanize your enemies.
Seems like we got all the nutjobs, and all the sane ones stayed back home in europe.
there's a gun in the us for every man, woman and child.

[redrockcoulee]

"In 2005, the most recent year for which mortality data are available, suicide was the second-leading cause of death among Americans 40 years of age or younger. Among Americans of all ages, more than half of all suicides are gun suicides. In 2005, an average of 46 Americans per day committed suicide with a firearm, accounting for 53% of all completed suicides. Gun suicide during this period accounted for 40% more deaths than gun homicide.

Why might the availability of firearms increase the risk of suicide in the United States? First, many suicidal acts — one third to four fifths of all suicide attempts, according to studies — are impulsive. Among people who made near-lethal suicide attempts, for example, 24% took less than 5 minutes between the decision to kill themselves and the actual attempt, and 70% took less than 1 hour.2

Second, many suicidal crises are self-limiting. Such crises are often caused by an immediate stressor, such as the breakup of a romantic relationship, the loss of a job, or a run-in with police. As the acute phase of the crisis passes, so does the urge to attempt suicide. The temporary nature and fleeting sway of many suicidal crises is evident in the fact that more than 90% of people who survive a suicide attempt, including attempts that were expected to be lethal (such as shooting oneself in the head or jumping in front of a train), do not go on to die by suicide. Indeed, recognizing the self-limiting nature of suicidal crises, penal and psychiatric institutions restrict access to lethal means for persons identified as potentially suicidal.

Third, guns are common in the United States (more than one third of U.S. households contain a firearm) and are lethal. A suicide attempt with a firearm rarely affords a second chance. Attempts involving drugs or cutting, which account for more than 90% of all suicidal acts, prove fatal far less often.

The empirical evidence linking suicide risk in the United States to the presence of firearms in the home is compelling.3 There are at least a dozen U.S. case–control studies in the peer-reviewed literature, all of which have found that a gun in the home is associated with an increased risk of suicide. The increase in risk is large, typically 2 to 10 times that in homes without guns, depending on the sample population (e.g., adolescents vs. older adults) and on the way in which the firearms were stored. The association between guns in the home and the risk of suicide is due entirely to a large increase in the risk of suicide by firearm that is not counterbalanced by a reduced risk of nonfirearm suicide. Moreover, the increased risk of suicide is not explained by increased psychopathologic characteristics, suicidal ideation, or suicide attempts among members of gun-owning households. "


The New England Journal of Medicine

The statistics for Canada are that suicides and mainly suicides by guns has dropped considerably since the gun registry/gun control law came into effect. I do not know if there was much of a decrease in gun ownership during that period however.

As much as I think that Canadian gun laws are much more sensible than those of our southerly neighbours I think now is the time to ponder the broader subject, and that may well be the simple question is are those with different views enemies or simply people with different views?

[redrockcoulee]

You should include a list of left wing terrorists, for example Lenin, Stalin, Chairman Mao, Ted Kosinski, PETA, ELF, the list goes on. There is no shortage of violent extremists on either end of the spectrum.

According to the programme on MSNBC last night the biggest difference between left and right terrorism is the former was the dominant force in the 1960s and 70s and the latter today.

[redrockcoulee]

Neither Obama, Palin or guns are to blame. Some sick turd did the job.

I did not watch Pastor Steve but if he is praying for something like that he is s sick turd also.

You are absolutely right, no person whether they are well balanced or on the very edge, are ever influenced by role models, family and friends, the media, politicians or hate groups. Listen to Clinton`s speech on the 15th annivesary of the OK City bombing please.

If you look at graphs of social indicators such as gun ownership, crime rates, murder rates, length of prison sentences, % of religious etc and look at all what used to be called the industrialized countries or the west (Western Europe, Canada, Japan and Australia) the US is an outlier and not in a positive way.

Last night Keith Obermann on MSNBC had a very thoughtful commentary as a response to the Arizona official who stated that Arizona was becoming a intolerant society. In it Obermann said it was time for all in the media to tone down the rhetoric and be more civil. Although he did mention some of the Fox news etc by name he also included himself. I suggest that each and every one of you, regardless of what you think of him or MSNBC, listen to his commentary.

Even in this thread there is left and right wing attaching each other which to a Canadian really baffles me as you only have two right wing parties as far as I can see as most Democrats would be at home in moderate right of centre political parties in most of the rest of the world. I am certainly fairly far to the left of your federal government and was until it disappeared a Red Tory, meaning on the left edge of our right wing party The Progressive Conservative Party which no longer exists.

My hope that out of this tragedy comes a more tolerant political climate (a bit selfish in a way as we tend to follow slowly American trends) but also perhaps it is time for Americans to acknowledge that although they think they live in the greatest country in the world (and I hope that everyone thinks that their own country is best) that maybe just maybe the States is not the best at every single aspect of business, health, social and education matters etc and look both inside and to the rest of the world for solutions to their problems. I do unfortunately expect to be disappointed.

[jeffkrol]

just an interesting statement.........

Under federal law, a mentally ill person is barred from purchasing a gun if a court has found that the individual is a danger to himself or the community.

"Just because you have a mental illness doesn't mean you're prohibited from buying a gun," said an ATF official, speaking on condition of anonymity. "You can be diagnosed paranoid schizophrenic and buy a gun. A judge has to find you mentally ill before you are prohibited."

Arizona Shooting Puts Focus on Gun Laws - WSJ.com

Sen. Rand Paul (R., Ky.), speaking on Fox News Sunday, said Arizona's gun laws were unrelated to the shooting, and he noted that Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, the Arizona Democrat targeted in Saturday's shooting, is a supporter of Second Amendment rights on gun ownership.

The shootings, Mr. Paul said, are "probably about a very sick individual and what should have been done for that person.

Maybe a bit of "socialized medicine" was called for.........

[Parallax]

It's a good thing Timothy McVeigh didn't have one of those evil, dangerous guns. He could have really hurt somebody. _

[ChatMechant]

It's a good thing Timothy McVeigh didn't have one of those evil, dangerous guns. He could have really hurt somebody. _

wasn't timothy mcveigh a terrorist from wisconsin? so shouldn't we be invading/bombing the crap out of wisconsin? those damn 'cheese heads'!

[Al_T]

America was built by a large population of gun-loving, religious psychopaths. It's the same then as it was today. the people who committed those atrocities are no different than people today. the holocaust could happen now as easily as it did then. all it takes is to dehumanize your enemies. or actually, convince the ignorant masses to dehumanize your enemies. Seems like we got all the nutjobs, and all the sane ones stayed back home in europe. there's a gun in the us for every man, woman and child.

What I find very sad is there are people now that feel if someone does not agree with their political views or that of their political leaders, and you are outspoken about it ,you are somehow less intelligent, ignorant, racist, religious zealot, gun toting redneck, etc. and some how you are a contributing factor to this tragedy. This tragic act was committed by a disturbed idiot nothing else nothing more. As Americans It is our civic duty to speak out against officials that we feel are threatening to the American way of life. Whether you agree or not Spirited political discourse has been and should always be part of our political system. It keeps our people involved and in the political process and is our constitutional right.

There is a supercilious attitude that I see in this discussion that I personally find very disturbing. As an American I am willing to defend your right to disagree with me or your political leaders. It is called "Freedom Of Speech". As the French Philosopher Voltaire wrote "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

[BillM]

It's a good thing Timothy McVeigh didn't have one of those evil, dangerous guns. He could have really hurt somebody

Thats the thing Jim, we've had so many horrible lessons throughout history,
we pause disgusted, get on with life, and we watch as it begins anew
in steps and increments,then by leaps and bounds humanity's capability
for maleific violence agaisnt itself manifest again.

[redrockcoulee]

What I find very sad is there are people now that feel if someone does not agree with their political views or that of their political leaders, and you are outspoken about it ,you are somehow less intelligent, ignorant, racist, religious zealot, gun toting redneck, etc. and some how you are a contributing factor to this tragedy. This tragic act was committed by a disturbed idiot nothing else nothing more. As Americans It is our civic duty to speak out against officials that we feel are threatening to the American way of life. Whether you agree or not Spirited political discourse has been and should always be part of our political system. It keeps our people involved and in the political process and is our constitutional right.

There is a supercilious attitude that I see in this discussion that I personally find very disturbing. As an American I am willing to defend your right to disagree with me or your political leaders. It is called "Freedom Of Speech". As the French Philosopher Voltaire wrote "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Isn't what you just posted part of the problem. You have elected officials who have a different view of the exact nature of what they would like the country to look like in the future or perhaps they agree on where to go just cannot agree on the best route to obtain that goal. But which of your politicians are threatening the American way of life? It does not say "Life liberty and the right for health insurance companies to deny based on pre existing conditions" in your motto for example or that the government cannot give tax cuts to the wealthy if they give them to the middle class. Regulating corporations is not new in the world or your country, adding social programs has occurred over more than a century. What is the threat to you country that one should be allowed to use threatening language instead of debating the issues. Pulling the plug on grandma, death panels etc are not part of a spirited debate. It is a method to scare people into action, perhaps preferably at the ballot box but perhaps for the less stable a more drastic action.

[Al_T]

Isn't what you just posted part of the problem. You have elected officials who have a different view of the exact nature of what they would like the country to look like in the future or perhaps they agree on where to go just cannot agree on the best route to obtain that goal. But which of your politicians are threatening the American way of life? It does not say "Life liberty and the right for health insurance companies to deny based on pre existing conditions" in your motto for example or that the government cannot give tax cuts to the wealthy if they give them to the middle class. Regulating corporations is not new in the world or your country, adding social programs has occurred over more than a century. What is the threat to you country that one should be allowed to use threatening language instead of debating the issues. Pulling the plug on grandma, death panels etc are not part of a spirited debate. It is a method to scare people into action, perhaps preferably at the ballot box but perhaps for the less stable a more drastic action.

Your post validates my point. Thank you.

"supercilious - having or showing arrogant superiority to and disdain of those one views as unworthy;"

[Ratmagiclady]

I really do think what this nation needs to take from all this is something of a call to national healing, ....yes, that means that there aren't *obviously* certain people and agendas stoking fear and anger and division and occasionally just saying, 'Well, it's everyone," (so it's OK, or time to attack more,) ...But not just placing responsibility, but taking it.

If people don't know what all the militant talk does, they probably *shouldn't* be the ones with guns, actually.

It's not just that a crazy person seems to have gotten involved with at least one white nationalist anti-immigrant group and shot a Democrat that has been threatened and 'targeted' by people who deny any responsibility for the climate of hatred and fear and all...

And a judge that was also so threatened, ...and a nine year old girl who was learning about government.... Public servants and people hoping to actually *speak with their elected representative...*


Not just that: it's the 'crazy' that's infected how we even live together, the trust-but-verify that's really a basis of free civilization itself, ....It's taken over too much of how we even get information...

I think we need a little more than a *rally* to restore sanity, I think we need a national *Day* of restoring sanity. In some minds, this is only getting worse, it seems. But for many of us, too, I think it could be the wakeup call.


Everyone's been saying this kind of thing was going to happen: Now you've seen it. Again.

It's really time to get with healing some of what all this has torn apart, far worse than anything a physical attack did.

[ChatMechant]

What I find very sad is there are people now that feel if someone does not agree with their political views or that of their political leaders, and you are outspoken about it ,you are somehow less intelligent, ignorant, racist, religious zealot, gun toting redneck, etc. and some how you are a contributing factor to this tragedy. This tragic act was committed by a disturbed idiot nothing else nothing more. As Americans It is our civic duty to speak out against officials that we feel are threatening to the American way of life. Whether you agree or not Spirited political discourse has been and should always be part of our political system. It keeps our people involved and in the political process and is our constitutional right.

There is a supercilious attitude that I see in this discussion that I personally find very disturbing. As an American I am willing to defend your right to disagree with me or your political leaders. It is called "Freedom Of Speech". As the French Philosopher Voltaire wrote "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

supercilious attitude? well, when people act like a "less intelligent, ignorant, racist, religious zealot, gun toting redneck, etc." then that's what they're acting like. some of those things, by the way, are things that a lot of people are very proud of being.
this country has a lot of good ideals behind it, for sure. unfortunately in reality, those ideals get tossed at the drop of a hat when it suits the lawmakers(or the corporations). "separation of church and state"="in god we trust" etc. etc.
the hate that is being generated by both sides is disturbing. but, the "gotta protect me and mine" attitude of a lot of uneducated, paranoid, religious 'mericans is extremely disturbing. because, unfortunately these are typically gun owners. of course i'm not saying that every gun owner is a "uneducated, paranoid, religious 'merican". just a lot of 'em.