Save the Planet: the Nissan Leaf is now available !

**jpzk** · 01-11-2011, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by RayGunn

Well, sort of available. Available if you live in, or are close to, the few cities in the few states, here in the USofA, which have dealers which might be able to find one for you.
If Nissan is correct about the number of people whom have placed a deposit on one, and all those people actually purchase one, they will not be available to anyone else for quite some time.
RayGunn

Apparently, Nissan will have very few available in Canada. Maybe a couple of those cars in larger cities such as Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver but certainly not in our out-in-the-boonies town here.
As long as the demand keeps increasing, I suppose they will become as popular as the hybrids ?

JP

**jpzk** · 01-11-2011, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by Ratmagiclady

That's how it was with the first hybrids, actually. Not a bad sign for sales and all, ...and some of those electric car plants are here in America, so it coud be something helpful happening all around.

Electric cars in the cities will mean those cities start putting in some infrastructure, and that'll tend to spread, too.

That is what we all hope for: more demand ... more electric cars produced ... lesser prices ...

JP

**jpzk** · 01-11-2011, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by Phil1

A good friend has had a Leaf on order since November. He is getting strocked on delivery which is now expected to be April-ish. It seems Nissan has been very busy with the advance publicity but is somewhat slow on filling the pipeline.

Also Ford has had some EV annoucements at the Detroit auto show but availablity is a ways off. Worth a peek if you are inclined.

Good for your friend!

Of course, California will be the mecca for these sort of cars but I hope this will give the idea to the rest of North America.
I seriously believe in this technology.

Ford claims availaibility in 2013. We shall see.

JP

**jpzk** · 01-11-2011, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by eddie1960

the best way to save the planet (and your health)

BTW I don't believe anyone has managed the claimed range on a tesla yet (it sure is a pretty car though)

Agreed ... but with almost 5 to 6 months of winter around here, little chance of that!

JP

**jpzk** · 01-11-2011, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by casil403

While I think it is great that companies are looking at alternative fuel sources, sometimes I have to wonder how "green" they really are.

Electric cars are charged using coal fired power plants which in turn also pollute the air and the earth.
While there are no exhaust emitted by the vehicles themselves, the fact that they are being charged using electricity (of which the majority comes) from coal fired electrical power plants makes me wonder if it is all a bit of hype really.

Just my $0.02 on the subject.

I see your point, just like producing "eco fuel" from plants: you need to farm the plants, so that laso menas useage of farm equipment: fossil fuel use.

But, as I see it, with technology advancing so fast, don't you think they would eventually come up with some battery/fuel cell which would require very little production "efforts"?
If we don't try now and render the production processes more efficient, when will we ever be able to do without fossil fuel ? And I don't think this stuff is going to last forever.

JP

**jpzk** · 01-11-2011, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by eddie1960

not too mention the environmental toll of the batteries and manufacturing process it makes my head hurt when i think about it. really hydrogen seems the best and most neglected option. Byproduct + water
tech not there yet but devote the capital to it and it would be

That is exactly what I was trying to convey in an earlier post.
Maybe not "battery/electric" but perhaps "fuel cell/electric" ... as long as we don't blow ourselves up trying to built a perpetual cold fusion cell !

Cheers.

JP

**jpzk** · 01-11-2011, 07:41 PM

Originally posted by ve2vfd

Indeed the battery manufacturing and disposal is a NIGHTMARE that most people conveniently ignore when dealing with electric cars.

I've got a bit of an insider point of view on this subject as a member of my family was on the design/engineering team who created the battery and charging system for the Bombardier plug in electrical vehicles a few years ago.

Even if we were to ignore the fact that much of the electricity in the US comes from dirty sources like burning coal or oil, the fabrication and then disposal of the massive batteries for those cars is very dirty and nowhere near as "environmentally friendly" as those who like to pat themselves on the back for driving those "clean cars" like to think.

Don't get me wrong though, I am all for moving forward to new automotive technologies... I strongly believe we've been stagnating for too long in this field. But the fact is that the current crop of EV's is nowhere near as "clean" as people like to think.

Pat

Very good point, Pat.

On the other hand, and I don't think I talk through my hat saying this: emission free vehicles will likely become a "must" sooner or later if you get my drift.

The road to building such vehicles is a steep and curvy one but I trust we will be able to make it work if we put in enough effort and money (smart investing?) into it.

In the time being, I will have to continue driving the (used) Yaris.

Maybe I am a lunatic but I still believe in a clean world ... obviously not during my lifetime though.

Cheers.

JP

Ratmagiclady · 01-12-2011, 12:12 PM

Well, the thing about electric cars is that, while there are a lot of coal-fired power plants, they *can* run on a diversity of sources, and store it, too, (Which can be a big challenge for alternative energy.)

Even if it runs off of a coal plant, though, an electric car will tend to be being charged at times when there is more unused output from fuels that are being burned anyway just to keep plants running. (Peak load/base load curves and all) It can flatten the curves of how hot plants run just to keep the grid active, especially if you have enough of a network of them to draw some power *off* the batteries at peak times, and allow those plants to burn less overall.

Basically, if you computer-manage a network of electrics, you have some of that energy storage that alternative energy tends to want, and no one said that storage had to be standing still and doing nothing else. (A car actually spends most of its operating life sitting around, and to an electrical grid, a plug is basically a plug.

) Basically, it means that we can get a lot more out of fuels already being burned in the plants, even if you're just charging overnight when the demand's generally lower.

casil403 · 01-13-2011, 05:45 AM

Also what about the plastics involved that go into making the parts for the vehicles...the synthetics also that are used in the fabric seats, foam for seating and the flooring as well.

Those are hardly "green"or eco-friendly items.

It is a start and I applaud the efforts of the industry trying to make changes (which have been demanded by the consumer) however, there is a long way to go and IMO I would have to say that the term "green"or eco friendly is a bit of a misnomer as far as the auto industry goes as yet.

It is a pretty little car though.

**Fontan** · 01-15-2011, 12:12 AM

If you order a Nissan Leaf today, you will not get one until late 2012. Thank you for your interests!

Phil1 · 01-15-2011, 12:51 AM

""not too mention the environmental toll of the batteries and manufacturing process it makes my head hurt when i think about it. really hydrogen seems the best and most neglected option. Byproduct + water
tech not there yet but devote the capital to it and it would be
__________________
Eddie""

Less than 60%, I believe, of the US electricity is from coal. The balance is from natural gas, nuke, hydro. and a small amount is from geo thermal, wind and solar.
That is the beauty of using electricity for urban transportation. Regarding batteries, they have been recycling batteries for at least 75 years. The new units are just new stuff to recycle'

Hydrogen is basically an unpractical bust. You have to make hydrogen. There is two ways: break down natural gas and electolysis using large amounts of electricity and water. Once you have it you have new storage and distribution issues. There has been some work done on home hydrogen generators using solar. You have to buy and maintain a home plant to do this and have a high capacity solar system already installed.

Regarding recent development of existing gasoline powered cars, I am afraid that lots has gone on that many don't know what they are talking about. You can buy a good assortment of PZEV (Partial Zero Emission Vehicles) that are exceptionally clean and provide very good mileage. Two quick advantages of a later generation plug-in hybtrd is 300++ mileage range and the ability to recapture some braking energy electrically and recharge the battery. You have the options of running 100% on battery or suppliment with the recharging engine that is also a gasoline PZEV or perhaps a clean diesel or natural gas. If your trip cycle is under 60-70 miles it is easy to obtain in excess of 100 MPG at freeway speeds with very good performance.

So if you are in the north east your plug-in pure EV will be a coal/nuke burner of sorts. In the southwest a natural gas/and whatever else burner. If that doesn't work for you try snow tires on your tofu powered bicycle.

Ratmagiclady · 01-15-2011, 07:13 AM

Originally posted by casil403

Also what about the plastics involved that go into making the parts for the vehicles...the synthetics also that are used in the fabric seats, foam for seating and the flooring as well.

Those are hardly "green"or eco-friendly items.

It is a start and I applaud the efforts of the industry trying to make changes (which have been demanded by the consumer) however, there is a long way to go and IMO I would have to say that the term "green"or eco friendly is a bit of a misnomer as far as the auto industry goes as yet.

It is a pretty little car though.

Well, a lot of car-makers have been working on making their vehicles more recycling-friendly, (who knows how much that counts for, ) even using some recycled materials going in, but at the end of their operating lives, it'll help if they're easier to disassemble.

A new car of any kind has a certain environmental load about it: for someone like me who doesn't commute, it wouldn't make much sense to go out and buy a new electric: it'd take a very long time for someone who drives as little as I do to make up for the 'cost' of someone building and shipping a whole new vehicle. (For the average commuter, on the other hand... Pretty darn good.

...incidentally, afaik, all the new electrics get regenerative braking, too, btw.)

Still, I'd be doing much more good keeping an older car or truck going and in good tune, I've had a tendency to be saving em from the crusher when I did so, actually. Chances are we'll be keeping our little gas-burning car, and I'll see about adding something that can carry things: probably see if I can get hold of a little truck or SUV or station wagon or something. (Don't know about 'saving from the crusher' this time, though, not directly, anyway: it's probably more of a project than I could handle.

Anyway, different things for different purposes.

Phil1 · 01-15-2011, 08:40 AM

What RML said. Look at your own situation and keep or buy the best tool for the job based on your economics. So much money is wasted on cars and they really won't make your winky any longer either.

They say car ownership should be at least 8 years. The cars today should go to 200,000 miles at least with proper maintanance.

My eco friend ordered a Nissan Leaf in November and is being stroked on delivery to April. That's OK but he is swapping a two year old under warranty Prius to do it. The numbers don't make sense to me.

Ratmagiclady · 01-15-2011, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by Phil1

What RML said. Look at your own situation and keep or buy the best tool for the job based on your economics. So much money is wasted on cars and they really won't make your winky any longer either.

They say car ownership should be at least 8 years. The cars today should go to 200,000 miles at least with proper maintanance.

My eco friend ordered a Nissan Leaf in November and is being stroked on delivery to April. That's OK but he is swapping a two year old under warranty Prius to do it. The numbers don't make sense to me.

Well, in the case of these hybrids and electrics, it probably doesn't hurt to have the both of them out there, anyway: now your friend gets a Leaf and someone else can have a Prius, so all other things being equal, the step's fairly eco-neutral:that's just a matter of who has which eco-mobile.

From a money standpoint, well, I probably wouldn't do that. But I get really attached to vehicles (and things like camera bodies,

) anyway, and lean more toward 'tried and true' than 'The latest thing' in general.

Maybe your friend just likes the Leaf a lot better, anyway.

I happened to catch like a MotorWeek review on TV one night and got curious: they seemed pretty nice.

casil403 · 01-15-2011, 06:36 PM

Quote:

What RML said. Look at your own situation and keep or buy the best tool for the job based on your economics. So much money is wasted on cars and they really won't make your winky any longer either.

I take the transit, walk and ride my bike....I am just not that interested in all the money that goes into vehicles...maintenance, gas, insurance, etc, etc. Let alone the stress that comes with driving due to other driver's impatience and road rage.
The drawback is it that my life requires a bit more planning and forethought before I go anywhere but in the long term I'm okay with that.
I have been for the last 40+ years.

If I did get something to drive it would be small, and I would still take transit and just use it for errands on the weekend.

01-12-2011, 12:12 PM	#23
Ratmagiclady Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: GA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,563	Well, the thing about electric cars is that, while there are a lot of coal-fired power plants, they can run on a diversity of sources, and store it, too, (Which can be a big challenge for alternative energy.) Even if it runs off of a coal plant, though, an electric car will tend to be being charged at times when there is more unused output from fuels that are being burned anyway just to keep plants running. (Peak load/base load curves and all) It can flatten the curves of how hot plants run just to keep the grid active, especially if you have enough of a network of them to draw some power off the batteries at peak times, and allow those plants to burn less overall. Basically, if you computer-manage a network of electrics, you have some of that energy storage that alternative energy tends to want, and no one said that storage had to be standing still and doing nothing else. (A car actually spends most of its operating life sitting around, and to an electrical grid, a plug is basically a plug. ) Basically, it means that we can get a lot more out of fuels already being burned in the plants, even if you're just charging overnight when the demand's generally lower. Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 01-12-2011 at 12:17 PM.

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01-11-2011, 07:15 PM	#16
jpzk Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Québec Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,251 Original Poster	Originally posted by RayGunn Well, sort of available. Available if you live in, or are close to, the few cities in the few states, here in the USofA, which have dealers which might be able to find one for you. If Nissan is correct about the number of people whom have placed a deposit on one, and all those people actually purchase one, they will not be available to anyone else for quite some time. RayGunn Apparently, Nissan will have very few available in Canada. Maybe a couple of those cars in larger cities such as Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver but certainly not in our out-in-the-boonies town here. As long as the demand keeps increasing, I suppose they will become as popular as the hybrids ? JP

01-11-2011, 07:16 PM	#17
jpzk Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Québec Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,251 Original Poster	Originally posted by Ratmagiclady That's how it was with the first hybrids, actually. Not a bad sign for sales and all, ...and some of those electric car plants are here in America, so it coud be something helpful happening all around. Electric cars in the cities will mean those cities start putting in some infrastructure, and that'll tend to spread, too. That is what we all hope for: more demand ... more electric cars produced ... lesser prices ... JP

01-11-2011, 07:20 PM	#18
jpzk Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Québec Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,251 Original Poster	Originally posted by Phil1 A good friend has had a Leaf on order since November. He is getting strocked on delivery which is now expected to be April-ish. It seems Nissan has been very busy with the advance publicity but is somewhat slow on filling the pipeline. Also Ford has had some EV annoucements at the Detroit auto show but availablity is a ways off. Worth a peek if you are inclined. Good for your friend! Of course, California will be the mecca for these sort of cars but I hope this will give the idea to the rest of North America. I seriously believe in this technology. Ford claims availaibility in 2013. We shall see. JP

01-11-2011, 07:22 PM	#19
jpzk Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Québec Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,251 Original Poster	Originally posted by eddie1960 the best way to save the planet (and your health) BTW I don't believe anyone has managed the claimed range on a tesla yet (it sure is a pretty car though) Agreed ... but with almost 5 to 6 months of winter around here, little chance of that! JP

01-11-2011, 07:31 PM	#20
jpzk Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Québec Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,251 Original Poster	Originally posted by casil403 While I think it is great that companies are looking at alternative fuel sources, sometimes I have to wonder how "green" they really are. Electric cars are charged using coal fired power plants which in turn also pollute the air and the earth. While there are no exhaust emitted by the vehicles themselves, the fact that they are being charged using electricity (of which the majority comes) from coal fired electrical power plants makes me wonder if it is all a bit of hype really. Just my $0.02 on the subject. I see your point, just like producing "eco fuel" from plants: you need to farm the plants, so that laso menas useage of farm equipment: fossil fuel use. But, as I see it, with technology advancing so fast, don't you think they would eventually come up with some battery/fuel cell which would require very little production "efforts"? If we don't try now and render the production processes more efficient, when will we ever be able to do without fossil fuel ? And I don't think this stuff is going to last forever. JP

01-11-2011, 07:33 PM	#21
jpzk Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Québec Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,251 Original Poster	Originally posted by eddie1960 not too mention the environmental toll of the batteries and manufacturing process it makes my head hurt when i think about it. really hydrogen seems the best and most neglected option. Byproduct + water tech not there yet but devote the capital to it and it would be That is exactly what I was trying to convey in an earlier post. Maybe not "battery/electric" but perhaps "fuel cell/electric" ... as long as we don't blow ourselves up trying to built a perpetual cold fusion cell ! Cheers. JP

01-11-2011, 07:41 PM	#22
jpzk Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Québec Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,251 Original Poster	Originally posted by ve2vfd Indeed the battery manufacturing and disposal is a NIGHTMARE that most people conveniently ignore when dealing with electric cars. I've got a bit of an insider point of view on this subject as a member of my family was on the design/engineering team who created the battery and charging system for the Bombardier plug in electrical vehicles a few years ago. Even if we were to ignore the fact that much of the electricity in the US comes from dirty sources like burning coal or oil, the fabrication and then disposal of the massive batteries for those cars is very dirty and nowhere near as "environmentally friendly" as those who like to pat themselves on the back for driving those "clean cars" like to think. Don't get me wrong though, I am all for moving forward to new automotive technologies... I strongly believe we've been stagnating for too long in this field. But the fact is that the current crop of EV's is nowhere near as "clean" as people like to think. Pat Very good point, Pat. On the other hand, and I don't think I talk through my hat saying this: emission free vehicles will likely become a "must" sooner or later if you get my drift. The road to building such vehicles is a steep and curvy one but I trust we will be able to make it work if we put in enough effort and money (smart investing?) into it. In the time being, I will have to continue driving the (used) Yaris. Maybe I am a lunatic but I still believe in a clean world ... obviously not during my lifetime though. Cheers. JP

01-13-2011, 05:45 AM	#24
casil403 Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Calgary AB Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,170	Also what about the plastics involved that go into making the parts for the vehicles...the synthetics also that are used in the fabric seats, foam for seating and the flooring as well. Those are hardly "green"or eco-friendly items. It is a start and I applaud the efforts of the industry trying to make changes (which have been demanded by the consumer) however, there is a long way to go and IMO I would have to say that the term "green"or eco friendly is a bit of a misnomer as far as the auto industry goes as yet. It is a pretty little car though.

01-15-2011, 12:12 AM	#25
Fontan Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: 5th floor Posts: 1,610	If you order a Nissan Leaf today, you will not get one until late 2012. Thank you for your interests!

01-15-2011, 12:51 AM	#26
Phil1 Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,292	""not too mention the environmental toll of the batteries and manufacturing process it makes my head hurt when i think about it. really hydrogen seems the best and most neglected option. Byproduct + water tech not there yet but devote the capital to it and it would be __________________ Eddie"" Less than 60%, I believe, of the US electricity is from coal. The balance is from natural gas, nuke, hydro. and a small amount is from geo thermal, wind and solar. That is the beauty of using electricity for urban transportation. Regarding batteries, they have been recycling batteries for at least 75 years. The new units are just new stuff to recycle' Hydrogen is basically an unpractical bust. You have to make hydrogen. There is two ways: break down natural gas and electolysis using large amounts of electricity and water. Once you have it you have new storage and distribution issues. There has been some work done on home hydrogen generators using solar. You have to buy and maintain a home plant to do this and have a high capacity solar system already installed. Regarding recent development of existing gasoline powered cars, I am afraid that lots has gone on that many don't know what they are talking about. You can buy a good assortment of PZEV (Partial Zero Emission Vehicles) that are exceptionally clean and provide very good mileage. Two quick advantages of a later generation plug-in hybtrd is 300++ mileage range and the ability to recapture some braking energy electrically and recharge the battery. You have the options of running 100% on battery or suppliment with the recharging engine that is also a gasoline PZEV or perhaps a clean diesel or natural gas. If your trip cycle is under 60-70 miles it is easy to obtain in excess of 100 MPG at freeway speeds with very good performance. So if you are in the north east your plug-in pure EV will be a coal/nuke burner of sorts. In the southwest a natural gas/and whatever else burner. If that doesn't work for you try snow tires on your tofu powered bicycle.

01-15-2011, 07:13 AM	#27
Ratmagiclady Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: GA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,563	Originally posted by casil403 Also what about the plastics involved that go into making the parts for the vehicles...the synthetics also that are used in the fabric seats, foam for seating and the flooring as well. Those are hardly "green"or eco-friendly items. It is a start and I applaud the efforts of the industry trying to make changes (which have been demanded by the consumer) however, there is a long way to go and IMO I would have to say that the term "green"or eco friendly is a bit of a misnomer as far as the auto industry goes as yet. It is a pretty little car though. Well, a lot of car-makers have been working on making their vehicles more recycling-friendly, (who knows how much that counts for, ) even using some recycled materials going in, but at the end of their operating lives, it'll help if they're easier to disassemble. A new car of any kind has a certain environmental load about it: for someone like me who doesn't commute, it wouldn't make much sense to go out and buy a new electric: it'd take a very long time for someone who drives as little as I do to make up for the 'cost' of someone building and shipping a whole new vehicle. (For the average commuter, on the other hand... Pretty darn good. ...incidentally, afaik, all the new electrics get regenerative braking, too, btw.) Still, I'd be doing much more good keeping an older car or truck going and in good tune, I've had a tendency to be saving em from the crusher when I did so, actually. Chances are we'll be keeping our little gas-burning car, and I'll see about adding something that can carry things: probably see if I can get hold of a little truck or SUV or station wagon or something. (Don't know about 'saving from the crusher' this time, though, not directly, anyway: it's probably more of a project than I could handle. Anyway, different things for different purposes.

01-15-2011, 08:40 AM	#28
Phil1 Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,292	What RML said. Look at your own situation and keep or buy the best tool for the job based on your economics. So much money is wasted on cars and they really won't make your winky any longer either. They say car ownership should be at least 8 years. The cars today should go to 200,000 miles at least with proper maintanance. My eco friend ordered a Nissan Leaf in November and is being stroked on delivery to April. That's OK but he is swapping a two year old under warranty Prius to do it. The numbers don't make sense to me.

01-15-2011, 11:32 AM	#29
Ratmagiclady Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: GA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,563	Originally posted by Phil1 What RML said. Look at your own situation and keep or buy the best tool for the job based on your economics. So much money is wasted on cars and they really won't make your winky any longer either. They say car ownership should be at least 8 years. The cars today should go to 200,000 miles at least with proper maintanance. My eco friend ordered a Nissan Leaf in November and is being stroked on delivery to April. That's OK but he is swapping a two year old under warranty Prius to do it. The numbers don't make sense to me. Well, in the case of these hybrids and electrics, it probably doesn't hurt to have the both of them out there, anyway: now your friend gets a Leaf and someone else can have a Prius, so all other things being equal, the step's fairly eco-neutral:that's just a matter of who has which eco-mobile. From a money standpoint, well, I probably wouldn't do that. But I get really attached to vehicles (and things like camera bodies, ) anyway, and lean more toward 'tried and true' than 'The latest thing' in general. Maybe your friend just likes the Leaf a lot better, anyway. I happened to catch like a MotorWeek review on TV one night and got curious: they seemed pretty nice.

01-15-2011, 06:36 PM	#30
casil403 Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Calgary AB Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,170	Quote: What RML said. Look at your own situation and keep or buy the best tool for the job based on your economics. So much money is wasted on cars and they really won't make your winky any longer either. I take the transit, walk and ride my bike....I am just not that interested in all the money that goes into vehicles...maintenance, gas, insurance, etc, etc. Let alone the stress that comes with driving due to other driver's impatience and road rage. The drawback is it that my life requires a bit more planning and forethought before I go anywhere but in the long term I'm okay with that. I have been for the last 40+ years. If I did get something to drive it would be small, and I would still take transit and just use it for errands on the weekend.