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01-16-2011, 08:20 AM   #31
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At least the criminals in Syracuse, NY are environmentally responsible. Big increase in the number of pedal-by shootings.

Syracuse police see more people biking to and from crimes in 2010 | syracuse.com

01-16-2011, 10:36 AM   #32
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RML "Maybe your friend just likes the Leaf a lot better, anyway. I happened to catch like a MotorWeek review on TV one night and got curious: they seemed pretty nice."

Yes they are pretty good by what I understand too. My only point is that the decision to dump the low mileage Prius, also a nice car, was not a real good economic one. You can write it off as a hobby purchase I guess just like camera gear

One good point is gas is now about $3.45 a gallon here and wall plug gas is roughly a $1.75 equivelant last I heard. But the EV Leaf is a short haul commuter so it will be a long time coming to make it up in 'fuel'.

Edit: I meant to add that he installed the 220Volt charging access in his garage (about $900) so that will be quicker but I think the KW hours billing will be the same as it is still one power meter read.

Last edited by Phil1; 01-16-2011 at 11:43 AM.
01-17-2011, 05:55 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Phil1 Quote
Edit: I meant to add that he installed the 220Volt charging access in his garage (about $900) so that will be quicker but I think the KW hours billing will be the same as it is still one power meter read.
220V? Interesting. They don't convert the cars to US voltage or is there some other reason for 220V?
01-17-2011, 10:32 AM   #34
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Definitely..in view of how we produce our electricity electric cars are not really "green", it's just a marketing strategy, and the will to cope a part of the new "eco" market...
if you want ecological i would suggest riding a bike. (it's fun and you devellop a daredevil attitude, some fine reflexes, and some intimidating grins to cope with AutoManiacs on the road i usually carry the metal things you use to climb or a big wrench )

another possible alternative would be:

Got some friends who did half europe and morroco on one of those and then gave the donkey to a morrocan child..they are very fond of the experience.

01-17-2011, 10:45 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
not too mention the environmental toll of the batteries and manufacturing process it makes my head hurt when i think about it. really hydrogen seems the best and most neglected option. Byproduct + water
tech not there yet but devote the capital to it and it would be

I recall that when the prius first came out someone did an environmental cost analysis and it was actually as damaging as a hummer over the lifetime of the vehicle. The cost in electricity to build it including the batteries and then the disposal of the heavy metals etc. I believe that the same study said that one of the scions had the lowest impact. Hydrogen also has a cost as it still needs electricity to produce it. I think that nuclear power and electric or hydrogen would be the best option.
01-17-2011, 10:59 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by VaughnA Quote
I think that nuclear power and electric or hydrogen would be the best option.
Nuclear has some waste issues mate, and it's still a limited prime matter energy..and the level of control it requires has impacts in some other parts of our societies...so it's not really a good option..we all remember tchernobyl, but what we don't realize is that there's been some other (lesser it's true) incidents in countrys like france..and not long ago...And that all we know to do to dispose of old centrals is to cover them in concrete, put some soil and grass on it.
Don't really see how having to store loads of radioactive waste underground in controlled places (with it's increasing cost, economical and environmental, over time) is a good solution.

Maybe if all the technology had not been bought off and stopped in the 80s by the petrol companys we would have more efficient and environmental friendly electric cars...
01-17-2011, 11:07 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Coeurdechene Quote
Maybe if all the technology had not been bought off and stopped in the 80s by the petrol companys we would have more efficient and environmental friendly electric cars...
Considering the impact on the whole planet setting aside an uninhabitable area for storage and disposal of nuclear wast seems to have less impact than what we're seeing worldwide with gasoline and coal. And if we can get fusion working then much of that problem is solved. As with anything there are tradeoffs. Nothing is perfect but having a nuclear waste site in an unhabitable area is less damaging than the pollution we are seeing in china and other developing countries today in my opinion.

And I agree about the petrolium industry killing electric cars. We'd be a lot better off if that would not have happened.
01-17-2011, 11:09 AM   #38
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maybe if more people took public transit, and we invested more heavily in a transit infrastructure as well. The number of single person vehicles i see coming into the city on any given morning is crazy. I'm guessing many North American cities are the same. Europe is definitely further along on this curve (and the energy efficient vehicle curve in general - largely though due to the high cost of operating a vehicle there)
In Toronto we have an anti transit Pro car mayor and it embarrasses me to no end the stupid crap that pours forth from his mouth.
making it easy and affordable for people to take transit rather than drive will lower emissions faster than any of these options. In Europe you are lucky to have cities that are largely high density and therefore it is easier to provide transit and encourage bikes as an alternative. North America has ridiculously low density in cities and the urban sprawl promotes the use of cars. City planners are starting to smarten up (like this one for example http://www.thestar.com/news/article/922765--hume-resisting-the-call-of-sprawl ) but it will take a far more concerted effort than i see so far, and far more political will as many decisions will be deemed unpopular at first (kind of how we ended up with our new mayor actually)

01-17-2011, 11:47 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by lithos Quote
220V? Interesting. They don't convert the cars to US voltage or is there some other reason for 220V?
The typical US home gets 220-240V 60 Hz from the electric company, but it's only used for a few appliances - electric range, dryer, AC, etc. The rest is split into half and powers two circuits for ordinary loads of 20A or less, depending on how cheap the builder was with wire size. The average outlet is rated at 15A, 120V.

The reason for a higher voltage is it can deliver more current with a reasonable wire size. More current means a shorter recharge time.
01-17-2011, 12:15 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Coeurdechene Quote
Definitely..in view of how we produce our electricity electric cars are not really "green", it's just a marketing strategy, and the will to cope a part of the new "eco" market...
if you want ecological i would suggest riding a bike. (it's fun and you devellop a daredevil attitude, some fine reflexes, and some intimidating grins to cope with AutoManiacs on the road i usually carry the metal things you use to climb or a big wrench )
You shouldn't be so dismissive of electrics: that's just more, 'It's not perfect, so keep doing it the worst way' that's helped keep us in this growing mess to begin with, all while arranging life more and more around dependence on unsustainable tech.

Better not to drive cars at all if possible, but I was once a Boston bike messenger: reflexes and attitude, I've had. Knees for a daily grind of it, not so much.



QuoteQuote:
another possible alternative would be:
Cyoot!

I keep warning my sweetie, one of these days, there'll just be a burro or some sled dogs or a particularly-amiable reindeer in the yard, perhaps a Winterized Riding Emu, (The existence of which I still haven't ruled out,) and that's that.
01-18-2011, 05:59 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
maybe if more people took public transit, and we invested more heavily in a transit infrastructure as well. The number of single person vehicles i see coming into the city on any given morning is crazy. I'm guessing many North American cities are the same.
I remember a news story in Vancouver a while back showing people getting busted for driving in the HOV lanes with mannequins in the passenger seats dressed up to look like carpoolers.
http://www.metronews.ca/ottawa/canada/article/244283--vancouver-driver-and-h...ed-in-hov-lane
apparently it happens in other places too.
"Car Pooler" Busted for Mannequin Passenger in HOV Lane - Crimesider - CBS News
01-18-2011, 07:03 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by VaughnA Quote
Nothing is perfect but having a nuclear waste site in an unhabitable area is less damaging than the pollution we are seeing in china and other developing countries today in my opinion.
you're kind of right there..the problem is that those overpolluted third world countrys won't have acces to bleeding edge nuclear power and will probably set not tolerable standarts to waste management and security if they ever build a nuclear plant.
We who have resources should drift away from nuclear and try to get performant sustainable energy...
You got really old techs that were killed by energy businesmen...like the electricity generated by the waves..that's awfully old but was never imlemented...or the energy produced by the solar absortion of the sea (temperature differences and all...)...or all the Nicola Tesla theories about the energy produced by the potential difference between the earth and the ionosphere...there are lots of possible devellopments, but investigation was killed for energy market's sake...

And Ratmagiclady, i wasn't being dismissive i was being realist..it's not green and it won't save the planet unless we adopt a different way of life and we abolish the programmed obsolescence that drives our economy. If that wasn't a fundamental part of market ethos and if electric cars had not been killed by petrol giants in the 80s we would have very efficient automobiles with very advanced electric technology.
Private sector should realise that it's practises are, in the long term, not economically sound...
01-19-2011, 09:02 AM   #43
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Many seem to forget that there is no free lunch with energy. All forms come with various costs. Hydro is damming rivers and tidal inlets and dead fish. Wind is ugly a$$ towers all over and intermittant power. Solar is square miles of ugly panels that need replacing every 20 years, Coal and gas leave emissions and require drilling. Nuke is expensive long run and leaves waste.

Conservation is free.
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