[eddie1960]

Interestingly, no one seems to agree with you about crime rates in Canada, or even crime rates in Canada vs. the USA:

From the Globe and Mail:
Canada’s violent crime rate falls more slowly than overall decline - The Globe and Mail

From the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation:
CBC News - Canada - Violent crime in 15-year decline: report

From The National Post:

StatsCan: Canada’s crime rate continues to drop, but attempted murders and drunk driving are up | Posted | National Post

Wikipedia has a short synopsis on what is considered a "violent crime" in several countries here:
Violent crime - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Did you know that in Canada, telephone harassment is a violent crime?

And finally, from the Canadian Government itself:

http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/Statcan/85-002-XIE/0110185-002-XIE.pdf

nice work wheat, plus one rep. I quoted the Wiki, but these are some of the sources. kind of stunned me to see the comment he made since i had never heard it and had in fact always heard the opposite.

another point not made is we have next to France and Germany the lowest incarceration rates in the western world (and no death sentence) at .13%. the US has the highest at .7% of the population and the death sentence in many states. yet the still have higher rates of violent crime. Yep getting tough on crime is working wonders for them

[GeneV]

I agree with you completely here, Gene. My point was that any gun can be a danger to bystanders. My "house gun" is a .357 magnum, but it is loaded with .38 Spl; and I don't live in an apartment.
As to the shotgun, yes it is a good choice IF small size shot is used. One test I saw conducted put 00 Buck through 8 layers of wall board.

Any gun can do damage to bystanders, but some, especially high velocity rounds, are more dangerous than others and have fewer advantages that justify their use for home protection. I used to carry a .22 magnum when backpacking because I believed (rightly or wrongly) it made lots of noise, could penetrate and sting a larger animal and you can carry some rounds along without being weighed down. However, I gave it up for home use when I found out how the rounds were so fast and small, they were feared by law enforcement because they can penetrate a vest, and decided it was too likely to go somewhere it was not wanted.

My brother in law loads his own, and he has his own load for the .357 for protection purposes as well. I just see too many people who see Dirty Harry as a role model.

[JohnInIndy]

Maybe we just need to make it a requirement to take gun safety classes whether you're getting a CWP or not. Buy a gun, any gun/firearm and take the class. Most of the accidental shootings I've seen are from some goober who has a gun and thinks he knows how to use it. You just point and pull the trigger right?

[GeneV]

Maybe we just need to make it a requirement to take gun safety classes whether you're getting a CWP or not. Buy a gun, any gun/firearm and take the class. Most of the accidental shootings I've seen are from some goober who has a gun and thinks he knows how to use it. You just point and pull the trigger right?

We require classes and a license before someone drives, and you just have to point the car and go, right?

[Parallax]

...............

My brother in law loads his own, and he has his own load for the .357 for protection purposes as well. I just see too many people who see Dirty Harry as a role model.

That brings up a whole other legal debate as to wisdom of using handloads for defense. Some will say that the prosecution would argue that the handloader wasn't satisfied with the lethality of factory ammo, so was trying to come up with something more deadly. I have never found anybody who could cite an instance where there was a legal issue made of handloads in a self defense shooting, but I prefer to err on the side of caution. I handload all of my target ammo, but I will only use factory ammo in a defense gun.

[Tom S.]

where are you getting your info on Canadian stats. The last full year reported showed a 3% decline in violent crime. the most prevalent by far is assault (level 1-3) (i.e. a fight, maybe including a blunt weapon but no firearms.) Crimes in general have been on the decline for the past 19 years.

From Wiki below as it is the easiest to quote from (though it cites the gov't stats if you want to follow up)

"There were 2,452,787 crimes reported in 2006; 48% were property related crimes and 12.6% were violent crimes. At a rate of 7,518 reported incidents per 100,000 people, the crime rate in 2006, the latest year for which there is statistics, was the lowest crime rate in twenty-five years.[1] The crime rate has been in general decline since 1991."

The homicide rate in Canada peaked in 1975 at 3.03 per 100,000 and has dropped since then; it reached lower peaks in 1985 (2.72) and 1991 (2.69). It reached a post 1970 low of 1.73 in 2003. The average murder rate between 1970 and 1976 was 2.52, between 1977 and 1983 it was 2.67, between 1984 and 1990 it was 2.41, between 1991 and 1997 it was 2.23 and between 1998 to 2004 it was 1.82.[9] The attempted homicide rate has fallen at a faster rate than the homicide rate.[10]


"By comparison, the homicide rate in the U.S. reached 10.1 per 100,000 in 1974, peaked in 1980 at 10.7 and reached a lower peak in 1991 (10.5). The average murder rate between 1970 and 1976 was 9.4, between 1977 and 1983 it was 9.6, between 1984 and 1990 it was 9, between 1991 and 1997 it was 9.2 and between 1998 and 2004 it was 6.3. In 2004 the murder rate in the U.S. dipped below 6 per 100,000, for the first time since 1966, and as of 2009 stood at 5.0 per 100,000 [8]

Approximately 70 percent of the total murders in the U.S. are committed with firearms, versus about 30 percent in Canada"

So as you can see we not only have fewer guns, we commit fewer murders using them

From the same Wiki source:

Historically, the violent crime rate in Canada is lower than that of the U.S. and this continues to be the case. For example, in 2000 the United States' rate for robberies was 65 percent higher, its rate for aggravated assault was more than double and its murder rate was triple that of Canada. However, the rate of some property crime types is lower in the U.S. than in Canada. For example, in 2006, the rates of vehicle theft were 22% higher in Canada than in the US.[7] Since violent crimes are a smaller fraction of all crimes, the difference between the two countries is less than the homicide rate might make it seem, and the overall rates are generally close (see Crime in the United States).[citation needed]

Furthermore, in recent years, the gap in violent crime rates between the United States and Canada has narrowed due to a precipitous drop in the violent crime rate in the U.S. For example, while the aggravated assault rate declined for most of 1990s in the U.S. and was 324 per 100,000 in 2000, the aggravated assault rate in Canada remained relatively steady throughout and was 143 per 100,000 in 2000.

In other areas, the U.S. had a faster decline. For instance, whereas the murder rate in Canada declined by 36% between 1991 and 2004, the U.S. murder rate declined by 44%. [8] Surprisingly, both Saskatoon and Regina consistently have Violent Crime rates that would place them among the 10 most violent cities in the US, and often individually exceed larger US centres in terms of Total numbers for Aggravated Assaults and Robbery.[citation needed]

[Tom S.]

Did you know that in Canada, telephone harassment is a violent crime?

So how long before phones are outlawed there?


BTW:

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/1/24/150547.shtml

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/issuesideas/story.html?id=fb715fde-9...5-81061c3cee14

http://www.gallup.com/poll/21346/crime-rate-lower-united-states-canada-than-britain.aspx

http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/cri-crime

http://www.nationmaster.com/article/Crime-Rates-Around-the-World

---

Last edited by Tom S.; 01-17-2011 at 03:10 PM.

[seacapt]

That is an interesting example. I do legal work for apartments, and the fact that people arm themselves with a .357 that delivers a round at 1,400 fps with 2x the energy of a 38sp in close proximity to one another is a huge problem. What works on the farm or at the cabin is a major danger to the innocent when when only a couple of sheets of gypsum separates you from your neighbor whose children may pay for your negligence in using a high-velocity weapon. I'm finding more and more landlords who want to ban guns in their leases as tenant shoot through the walls cleaning or playing with their weapons.

True enough. However, the penetration of a .357 is in another league. Its danger is not limited to apartments. Even a lot of 9mm loads out there are a problem. A shotgun or a slow, soft handgun round like a .45 acp or .380 hollow point is far more responsible and just as effective unless your home is invaded by Imperial Storm Troopers. I grew up with guns and have owned quite a few, but I have a good deal of trouble with the thinking of many gun owners.

I agree with you completely here, Gene. My point was that any gun can be a danger to bystanders. My "house gun" is a .357 magnum, but it is loaded with .38 Spl; and I don't live in an apartment.
As to the shotgun, yes it is a good choice IF small size shot is used. One test I saw conducted put 00 Buck through 8 layers of wall board.

That brings up a whole other legal debate as to wisdom of using handloads for defense. Some will say that the prosecution would argue that the handloader wasn't satisfied with the lethality of factory ammo, so was trying to come up with something more deadly. I have never found anybody who could cite an instance where there was a legal issue made of handloads in a self defense shooting, but I prefer to err on the side of caution. I handload all of my target ammo, but I will only use factory ammo in a defense gun.

A slightly long but good read on the subject.
For apartment /town house folks with revolvers check the Glaser Safety Slug
http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

[Wheatfield]

So how long before phones are outlawed there?

Funny. But your service can be taken away if you use it for bad intent.

BTW:

Canada's Crime Rate 50 % Higher than U.S.

Reaping what we sow

Crime Rate Lower in United States, Canada Than in Britain

NationMaster - Crime Statistics

NationMaster - Crime Rates Around the World

BTW:
Here's what I discovered about Newsmax:

"Who owns of newsmax magazine"

It's not a glowing endorsement:
"

Newsmax says it has 300,000 subscribers to the magazines, and it is one of the most visited news sites on the internet. It's strong right-wing slant is obvious and intended. Rush Limbaugh is a contributing editor, and has had Chris Ruddy on his popular talk radio show many times, as have Michael Reagan, Mike Savage, Neal Boortz and Sean Hannity. All are contributors/editors for the magazine and website, as are a number of other distinguished conservative pundits including Arnaud de Borchgrave (The Spike), Alexander Haig, Ronald Kessler and Richard Poe.



NewsMax makes about 8% of its revenues from selling branded and "conservative-themed" merchandise. There's quite a collection--everything from a Mount Rushmore framed lithograph to an audio tape "Pray and Be Rich," to a NYPD t-shirt to a Winston Churchill coffee mug. The company also partners with Random House to issue a series of co-branded books, all on neo-conservative themes. The line of books includes titles such as How to Raise an American, The Greatest Speeches of Ronald Reagan, How to Pay Zero Taxes and the best of all--If Democrats Had Any Brains, They'd Be Republicans.



You can check out their website yourself at Newsmax - Newsmax.com - Breaking News, Politics, Commentary, and do your Christmas shopping for all the Ronald Reagan fans on your Christmas list.



At the same time, you might want to look at some other articles about Newsmax, which is regularly taken to task for misleading reporting, failure to retract errors and other journalistic no-no's. A few I found particularly interesting were:



"Is NewsMax Corrupt?" by Terry Krepel of Conweb Watch: Is NewsMax Corrupt? | ConWebWatch



"Newsmax Knows its Audience" by Farhad Manjoo on Wired: http://www.wired.com/culture/lifestyle/news/2000/12/40375"



Nationmater.com would appear to be a compilation of stories from the CIA worldfactbook, I can't say for sure if it would have a bias, but I suspect it would, certainly one would be suspicious of it being a wee bit biased
NationMaster - Mission Statement
Gallup had to ask some pretty careful questions, and still didn't manage to make your point (regarding Canada, anyway), and Conrad Black's old newspaper managed to give you little more than an op-ed piece with no citations to back it up.
Sorry dude, but you need to do better than this.

[DeadJohn]

Within the United States, some low-crime cities have strict gun laws, while other low-crime cities have looser gun laws. The same applies to high-crime areas. (and I suspect the same applies to Canada but I'm not very familiar with Canadian statistics)

The availability and legality of guns influence the type of crimes and how people perceive their safety, but crime rates are complex. Guns are not the primary cause nor primary preventer of crime.

[seacapt]

Funny. But your service can be taken away if you use it for bad intent..

How's that work out for telemarketers?

[DeadJohn]

You can check out their website yourself at Newsmax - Newsmax.com - Breaking News, Politics, Commentary, and do your Christmas shopping for all the Ronald Reagan fans on your Christmas list.

shop.newsmax.com is the shortcut to go shopping. The "I Voted for Obama and All I Got Was This Lousy Recession" t-shirt convinced me that they don't care much about the facts. The recession was already there before Obama was elected and certainly before he took office. I guess they can weasel out and claim accuracy because he was elected to the Senate earlier. I prefer to get my news and my comedy from different sources.

(For anyone who thinks I'm defending Obama: I disagree with the way he dealt with the recession and fear he paved the way for more instability.)

Are theonion.com and thinkgeek.com reliable news organizations? They sell funny t-shirts, too, just like Newsmax.

[Tom S.]

How's that work out for telemarketers?

Excellent point!!

[GeneV]

Excellent point!!

Really? What was the point? I suspect that if telemarketers posed a danger of death, the laws would be enforced differently.

[Parallax]

telemarketers

Ken, I relize that the rules in P&R are a bit relaxed, but that word borders on outright vulgarity.