[Wheatfield]

Wheatfield, why would be Israel interested in destabilizing Egypt even further? Only if there was open war going on. Or that Egypt is in the edge of civil war. I don't see any of this there.

I was answering specifically to the point regarding "publicly stay out of it".
Read what you want into my reply.

[Black_ronin]

...and by quasi-Western officially atheist governments, to include the Soviet Union...

Oh, well, lets not forget that during Soviet regime from 20 million to 50 million people were killed based on different researches. Bolsheviks killed anyone "opposing" (or just suspicion was enough) to regime regardless of race or background. So, I wouldn't call it targeted slaughter.

And one may argue that a Christian government (Britain) acting in a colonial manner created the current problem between Israel and palestine in the first place.

Ditto to that. Let's not forget Pakistan and India too - the product of their international politics.

[les3547]

I'm sorry, I do not think this is accurate. Islam has had its fair share of violent uprisings right from the beginning, and is justified in scripture.

Hmmmm, how were Jewish beginnings any different, both in terms of warring (starting with taking the "promise land" away from the Canaanites), or in how war was justified by scripture?

Deuteronomy 20:13 describes worse consequences than what Mohammed did to those who resisted, where if a city does not accept Israel's offer of peace and open its gates, then "when the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the men in it." Or, what about the battle at Jericho where Israelites claimed (recorded in the 6th chapter of Joshua) what God wanted was: "The city and and everything in it must be completely destroyed as an offering to the Lord. Only Rahab the prostitute and the others in her house will be spared, for she protected our spies. . . . They completely destroyed everything in it - men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys - everything."

[les3547]

Another question, while i am it, what do the jews do that they end up on the wrong side of history everytime? Holucast wasnt the first time it happenned, exile from babylon, genocide was going on egypt when moses came along, and many other instances in jewish history.

Jewish history, in all but one respect, is no different than every other culture and people of the past. Human beings have murdered, enslaved, oppressed fellow humans from the start.

However, most peoples, as things went bad for them (and if they survived) were assimilated into the conquering populations (relatively recent genetic revelations show even Neanderthals were assimilated to an extent). Jews (when a nationless people) were always uniquely resistant to assimilating, preferring instead to fiercely preserve and practice important aspects their culture. Thus today we can still point to an unbroken (if scattered) Jewish tradition that extends thousands of years back into history.

If the Nazi's had decided Hittite descendants were deserving of oppression, they would have had a much harder time rounding them up.

[Ash]

Les, it's not worth going there to save going off topic, but just to refer you to a previous comprehensive thread discussing this very issue, go here: Islamophobia in Europe: Banning Minarets - PentaxForums.com, and especially read post 661 but also others for your entertainment at posts 405, 358-361, 107-155 then again from posts 202-237.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Bible-Quran-Violence.htm

[Nesster]

I was answering specifically to the point regarding "publicly stay out of it".
Read what you want into my reply.

Although, my thoughts were towards tacit support of a less anti-Israel faction within Egypt, one that would ensure peace... not destabilization.

[Nesster]

Oh, well, lets not forget that during Soviet regime from 20 million to 50 million people were killed based on different researches. Bolsheviks killed anyone "opposing" (or just suspicion was enough) to regime regardless of race or background. So, I wouldn't call it targeted slaughter.

Ditto to that. Let's not forget Pakistan and India too - the product of their international politics.

Well, yes, definitely there was equal opportunity for all to be oppressed and screwed.

[les3547]

Les, it's not worth going there to save going off topic, but just to refer you to a previous comprehensive thread discussing this very issue, go here: Islamophobia in Europe: Banning Minarets - PentaxForums.com, and especially read from posts 107-155 then again from posts 202-237.

After reading it I don't quite see how it applies except you again said something along the lines of what I responded to above: "Yep, sure. Seems to be part of human nature, but isn't scriptural for Christians... - where's 'Christian law' mandated?"

If you ignore the OT, then Christianity for you is very different than at least how fundamentalist religion is here in the US. I grew up in a fundamentalist home, and have interacted with a great many who quote the NT and OT as equally authoritative. In fact, one of my favorite ways to greet Jehovah Witnesses who showed up at my door was to say, "ok, I'll talk with you, but only if you stick to the words of Jesus."

"But what about . . ."

"Nope, only Jesus was the master, and only Jesus' words do I trust. Now make your case with his words alone."

Not one single Witness ever gave it a try, all left without saying anything more.

The thing that's hard to get a book religionist to agree with is that what was done and said in the past regarding externals was only 100% relevant at the time; just the inner aspects have the potential to be eternally true. I believe Moses, Mohammed and Jesus would all have agreed with "love God with all your heart, mind, and soul" but could not have agreed on how to deal with externals because each was in a very different situation.

People who love God can always find a way to share that experience, no matter what the external form they practice within. But if it is love of one's religion being pushed, then things seem to go in exactly the opposite direction.

[Ash]

After reading it I don't quite see how it applies.

Did you read this challenge on how Christianity's history is the most violent of all?
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/political-religious-discussion/78644-isla...tml#post861625

Exactly right about evangelism - there is an arbitrary line distinguishing the proclamation of salvation and ramming it down people's throats. The claim that 'if we had something so life-changing and free for all to have, wouldn't we all want to share it around?' is easily turned into 'everyone needs to know with whatever means possible' - we're all zealots of some sort - and to varying degrees - just like with photography.

[deadprez]

As one of the two token Jews here (the other is Pablom from Israel), I just want to offer my early apologies for the actions that Israel may take in response to the chaos in Egypt.

And the very real possibility that the Muslim Brotherhood takes power there.

Again, we're sorry. But if Israel has to destroy a newly-directed military that's vowed to destroy them, please excuse them for taking action first and leveling them back to the Pharaoh's times--which let's face it, is only maybe 50 years back.

I also apologize that these Jews are not going to give up and die for Islamic fanaticism.

Fortunately, the U.S. supplied much of Egypt's aircraft:

Easily made useless by the U.S. pulling the switch...linked to the satellites...and turning the brains of those aircraft into spaghetti.

Your army could not even defeat the civilian population in Gaza let alone against Hizbollah in Lebanon.
If you pull the trigger on the next war your country will go back to being a myth
in history books.

[Parallax]

Your army could not even defeat the civilian population in Gaza let alone against Hizbollah in Lebanon.
If you pull the trigger on the next war your country will go back to being a myth
in history books.

I assume you are speaking of the Israeli army. (Ira is an American)
You apparently weren't around in 1967. You probably should Google "6 day war" before forming an opinion on Israel's military capabilities.

[Ash]

...and how quickly their allies would be mobilised if anything threatened their integrity.

[Wheatfield]

I assume you are speaking of the Israeli army. (Ira is an American)
You apparently weren't around in 1967. You probably should Google "6 day war" before forming an opinion on Israel's military capabilities.

Note to Jim, 1967 was 44 years ago.

[deadprez]

I assume you are speaking of the Israeli army. (Ira is an American)
You apparently weren't around in 1967. You probably should Google "6 day war" before forming an opinion on Israel's military capabilities.

I don't need to look at the 6 day war.
It was a different time, different generation and irrelevant to wars played out much more recently.

Truth is the Occupation army of israel has retreated from the last 3 wars.

1. Liberation of the occupation of souther Lebanon by retreating due to guerrilla warfare tactic employed by Hezbollah.

2. The war of 2006 where there explicit goals of returning the captured occupation solders and defeating Hezbollah ended in in the breaking of the
unquestioned belief in the efficacy of Israeli deterrence. NOBODY IS SCARED of this army ANYMORE.

3. The 2008 war on Gaza that tried to restore the deterrence factor that it lost in 2006 and to remove Hamas from power. This war backfired on the isreal occupation army, after the dust settled Hamas was still in power and the it proved again that even without weapons resolve can go a long way to repelling aggression. People armed with home made rockets and ak-47's where able to withstand a brutal assault by an army that is armed to the teeth with all the latest technology. Journalism put the final nail in the occupation army's coffin by showing the true face of this brutal army ... (white phosporus, indiscriminate bombing and racist soldiers shooting unarmed civilians just because they are born Palestinians and the blowing up of united nations schools and charities).

It delegitimized itself in front of the world. Unfortunately even with all the destruction it was able to cause the criminality perpetrated brought less security and a reduction in friends to the country while providing a growing sympathy to the Palestinian struggle for the legitimate right to self determination.


So please the 1967 was almost 50 years ago ... as the saying goes, what have you done for me lately ??

[ihasa]

Israel's days are sadly numbered. If the government thinks anything like Ira, and believes that making preemptive strikes on its neighbours is acceptable, it will just hasten its own demise.

Majority rule for the whole of former Palestine, including what is currently Israel, with robust protections for both Arab and Israeli citizens to ensure their human and democratic rights is surely the only way forward? There can be no more tolerance of 'Zionist thinking' which flies in the face of the values of Israel's allies.

Zionists who think it's OK to use force - and they have and will resort to terrorism - to establish a sovereign Jewish state need to be seen as the religious extremists that they are, and given the same short shrift as the Islamists.