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02-22-2011, 02:45 PM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
It is more productive to talk concretely about the effects of a particular action under discussion.
Then it seems to be a different topic, which of course is very important...but different.

02-22-2011, 02:53 PM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nesster Quote
OK, understood. Mind if I poke at this a bit? One may argue that any government revenue is taking from ones to give to others. One may argue that any government expenditure is similar in nature. One may argue that any rule, regulation, or law is also similar - one is taking and giving liberties or capabilities. The US Constitution ennumerates some of these and assigns them, and puts up rules around them. The government gives rights to corporations. These are a legal construct of law. All of the above is simple enough to be null. Therefore, bringing up the idea that our elected leaders are paving the way to full bore socialism more than likely carries with it some political baggage. Namely, the implication is that non-conservatives are not committed to capitalist organization. (Which, in America, carries a non-patriotic odor.) And the underlying assumption is that any expression of societal interest apart from the conservative one can only lead to one conclusion. Consider the capitalism of the 1880's, say, or the 1920s. Are these better than what we have now? Has creeping socialism destroyed our ability to create new companies, new industries, new technologies? And yet, we have more rules now.
1. Sure, I don't mind.
2. "One may argue that any government revenue is taking from ones to give to others." TRUE.
3. "One may argue that any government expenditure is similar in nature." Not necessarily true: it depends on what role is assigned to the government. That is, what political system is in question.
4. "One may argue that any rule, regulation, or law is also similar - one is taking and giving liberties or capabilities." TRUE.
But the extent is determined in the same way as mentioned above.
5. "The US Constitution ennumerates some of these and assigns them, and puts up rules around them." The Ideal.
The reality is - UNFORTUNATELY - different.

Sorry, I have to take a break right now. Talk to you later.
02-22-2011, 03:04 PM   #123
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An interesting thing I noted when we moved to the USA - and this is a huge difference between the revolutionary Americans and the Old World - In Finland school was largely a matter of learning 'facts' and dates, and so on. When I came to the States the big difference was that in school 'facts' were less important, but critical thought, different viewpoints, were taught... In Europe, Russia included, there's a long hangover from the old days, where assumptions about the role of government are very different than here in the USA. It felt almost like in the USA people acted disrespectful - or at least didn't think too highly of - government figures and government in general. Question Authority really is a mode very much in the American character, and this is whether one's conservative or liberal...

This is why solutions that work in European situations won't fly too well in the USA; and why liberals tend to get frustrated at the sheer illogic of our system. And conservatives, again not afraid to Question Authority and so on, get frustrated about people tugging for change where the conservative feels there ought not to be all that much.
02-22-2011, 03:18 PM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nesster Quote
In Europe, Russia included, there's a long hangover from the old days, where assumptions about the role of government are very different than here in the USA. It felt almost like in the USA people acted disrespectful - or at least didn't think too highly of - government figures and government in general. Question Authority really is a mode very much in the American character, and this is whether one's conservative or liberal...
I had one of my professor who was a russian and that was a unique experience. It was a high level elective so there were only 11 of in the class, when we showed up for the midterm it was an oral exam, he said that oral exams were the norm for him coming up in russia, but it was sprung on us without any warning.

02-22-2011, 05:09 PM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by ConstIva Quote
Wrong conclusion, shooz.

But it could be true, if corporations are owned and governed by the State Government.

How about in a country like the USA where the government is owned and governed by corporations to the detriment of the citizenry?
02-22-2011, 06:23 PM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by ConstIva Quote
Then it seems to be a different topic, which of course is very important...but different.
It is part of this topic because scare words about paths to "isms" are often used to avoid concrete discussions.
02-22-2011, 10:11 PM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
It is part of this topic because scare words about paths to "isms" are often used to avoid concrete discussions.
If a "thing/object/phenomenon X" pertains to "X-ism" and a "thing/object/phenomenon Y" pertains to "Y-ism", then any discussion related to matter X inevitably involves the discussion of the X-ism.

But any of those "X-maters are a particular case of the "X-ism"; therefore it's a separate topic to discuss without avoiding the "concrete discussions."

The above is, of course, my own opinion; you may not agree with it. It's perfectly OK.

Talk to you tomorrow (if I'll still be alive)

By the way, I think that Nesster perfectly understands the differences of mentality between America and Europe.


Last edited by ConstIva; 02-22-2011 at 10:14 PM. Reason: addition
02-23-2011, 05:44 AM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by ConstIva Quote
If a "thing/object/phenomenon X" pertains to "X-ism" and a "thing/object/phenomenon Y" pertains to "Y-ism", then any discussion related to matter X inevitably involves the discussion of the X-ism.

But any of those "X-maters are a particular case of the "X-ism"; therefore it's a separate topic to discuss without avoiding the "concrete discussions."

The above is, of course, my own opinion; you may not agree with it. It's perfectly OK.

Talk to you tomorrow (if I'll still be alive)

By the way, I think that Nesster perfectly understands the differences of mentality between America and Europe.
I would agree that my point may not be part of the discussion of socialism as you conceive it, but the discussion about use of terms as a distraction is very relevant to the original post that started this thread about sensationalist political figures misusing fears of socialism.

I have lived in Europe as well, and was married for more than a decade to a European. I would also agree about Nesster's take on the difference in philosophy. That does not necessarily mean the U.S. is right.
02-23-2011, 06:14 AM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
It is part of this topic because scare words about paths to "isms" are often used to avoid concrete discussions.
I thought the topic du jour for this thread was supposed to be (.)(.) breasts.

This is one of the most meandering threads I have seen in a while.
02-23-2011, 06:53 AM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
I thought the topic du jour for this thread was supposed to be (.)(.) breasts.

This is one of the most meandering threads I have seen in a while.
It needs firmer support
02-23-2011, 06:59 AM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
It needs firmer support
Yes, the topic has sagged a bit. It could use a lift.
02-23-2011, 07:26 AM   #132
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...and I thought we were pumping it for all its worth...
02-23-2011, 07:59 AM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
the USA where the government is owned and governed by corporations
As I remember, in 2006, Enron Chiefs, Skilling and Lay, were convicted and jailed.
Later, ones of the wealthiest financiers, Stanford and Madoff were convicted and jailed.

How those facts are supporting your statement about "the government owned and governed by corporations"?

If not to mention that, if I am not mistaken, the President is a part of the Government, its Executive Branch.
As far as I remember, Bush was elected twice by us the people, no help from outside sources.

Obama was elected (hopefully, just once) with a huge help from Unions and organizations fed by Soros. Maybe, this is what you meant by "government owned by..."?
But even in the last case, we the people have played a very significant role in his election...

Please let me know with concrete details, sources and proofs how is "the USA government owned and governed by corporations"

I wouldn't have such a question if we talked about, say, Russia...

But if we are talking about huge bail-outs of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, GM, Ford (if I am not mistaken) and many other corporations, initiated by Obama, if this is what you meant, then I agree completely that the government owns or wants to own corporations.

If completely implemented, it will be then a system called Socialism. Again.

Last edited by ConstIva; 02-23-2011 at 08:07 AM.
02-23-2011, 08:21 AM   #134
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nesster Quote
...and I thought we were pumping it for all its worth...
Yes, but as with a lot of threads that started out perky, age has taken it's toll.
02-23-2011, 09:49 AM   #135
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Dear Wheatfield,
our discussion started, if I am not mistaken, from an accusation somebody raised against those who objected the distributing of breast pumps for free.

Then the discussion smoothly moved toward a broader topic - Socialism.

To my surprise, no, rather to my great chagrin, it appeared that here, on the Pentax Forum, there are more adherents of Socialism than adherents of restoring our country's prosperity without destroying it.

Somebody called this long discussion "meandering."

Well, it very well may be that it's me who turned this discussion to the more general issue, where the "breast pumps for free" are just one of signs of rotten mindset of spoilt people drugged by the promising-everything-for-free government.

When you said that the "government is owned by corporations," I first thought it's not the case in the USA.

But then, I've got lost: I see very close ties between the biggest private corporation called "the Federal Reserve" and the Government, and now I am confused: who owns who.

Last edited by ConstIva; 02-23-2011 at 10:33 AM. Reason: typos
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