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02-21-2011, 12:04 PM   #1
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and i thought we were allies ....

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/world/asia/22pakistan.html?pagewanted=2&_r=2

very disappointed.

02-21-2011, 12:33 PM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by techmulla Quote
we are not allies... never were... Pakistan was only used (unfortunately) to balance xUSSR and India... as a result we have a messed state full of muslim radicals w/ nukes
02-21-2011, 12:41 PM   #3
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haha ...

what if pakistan is using US ?
02-21-2011, 12:42 PM   #4
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I have only heard things about this from the western press, I am curious about what your view is of this situation.

Here is the basics of what has been reported here...
The guy (Raymond Davis) was an employee of the US embassy and was covered by diplomatic immunity.
He was driving around in the city when two guys on a motorcycle tried to steal his car.
He shot and killed both of them.
He was arrested for murder.

From reading the linked article, I see that a third person was killed in a traffic accident by another US diplomatic vehicle coming to his aid and the driver of that vehicle is the responsible party and the third victim was totally innocent.

I feel sorry for the third person, but I think the car thieves got what they deserved and it doesn't seem appropriate to hold Mr. Davis accountable for the third person who died because he wasn't driving that car.

Diplomatic immunity is an odd situation because it basically says that the only thing the host country can do is kick the diplomat out. It is ripe for abuse and has always been abused and it is unfortunate when there are dead civilians who cannot seek justice because of it.

Based on what I have heard, I think an appropriate remedy might be for Mr. Davis and the driver of the car that hit the third motorcyclist to be sent back to the US and to face some charges here. Mr. Davis would probably get a light sentence or just probation and the driver a heavier sentence. I don't know how well that would sit with the families in Pakistan though.

02-21-2011, 01:31 PM   #5
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Pakistani story goes like this.

To issue a "diplomatic" stamp on the passport, Pakistani authorities demand the exact job functions a diplomat is expected of perform. Pakistan foreign office has notified the US embassy many a times to provide the relevant documents, so that the necessary paper work can be done.

The nature of Raymond's visa is "official" as evident from the attached picture.



The official visa form does have a section for diplomatic. See Picture.



The overall mood of Pakistani population is anti-american. Why? This was not out war, We only provided our land to USA to meet her objective. In the process, we invited unrest to our land. The most effected piece of land affected by terrorist activity is Pakistan. I have never heard shopping centers and buildings being targeted by suicide bombers in USA during the past 9 year. On the contrary, there is a bombing in Pakistan every two weeks. Pakistan was quite peaceful before that.

As far as the "aid" money goes and my opinion goes. I don't consider it aid. We leased you our land, the money we are getting is not even fair compensation. It is peanuts, considering the amount of damage we have taken. Our economy has gone to dogs, the investor confidence is shaken, the price of everything has taken a hike.

So if denying a murderer diplomatic immunity means we are thrown into a diplomatic isolation, I say, go for it. We have already paid a high enough price for being a friend.

As far as the safety of our nuclear arsenal goes, nobody need to worry about it. We can perfectly take care of ourselves. AWC (air weapon complex) and NDC (national development complex) are on the cutting edge of technology. The amount of education man power works at these places is simply amazing, considering we are a developing nation.

Who are we kidding? America needs Pakistan, and Pakistan will come calling. The game being played at the moment is to remind America of Pakistan's importance, and to tell them that we are not to be treated as a used condom.

Some related read

Raymond Davis, GHQ and the Pentagon

//yousuf
02-21-2011, 05:26 PM   #6
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I'm also interested as to why you (and apparently the local media) dismiss out of hand the claim that this man was defending himself from armed thieves and instead label it a cold-blooded murder. I'm wondering what justification this guy might have had for shooting two innocent men in the back in the middle of a busy street, in view of witnesses, etc.

Again, we Americans are coming at this with only the information provided to us by our own news outlets, most of which have been feeding the self-defense story. While many of us are not primed to believe the stories of innocence told by "private contractors" in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan (due to repeated abuses of power), we've also been given no reason to disbelieve this story in particular.
02-21-2011, 05:58 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by deadwolfbones Quote
I'm also interested as to why you (and apparently the local media) dismiss out of hand the claim that this man was defending himself from armed thieves and instead label it a cold-blooded murder.
The thing is that you are looking at this situation with American eyes and judging it with American values and your local laws.

Had this guy done the same thing (assuming he was being robbed) just a few miles to the north (in Canada), he would be in the same exact boat. Unless your life is directly threatened and you are in imminent danger of death, you are not allowed to use lethal force here.

There are no "castle laws" here and defending property (like a car) does not justify killing another human being. If someone tries to steal my car and I kill him to stop the robbery, I'll spend the rest of my life in jail. If you look around you'll find out that the UK and most European countries have similar laws.

Of course there may be more to this story than what we see in the media...

Pat

02-21-2011, 06:57 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by ve2vfd Quote
The thing is that you are looking at this situation with American eyes and judging it with American values and your local laws.

Had this guy done the same thing (assuming he was being robbed) just a few miles to the north (in Canada), he would be in the same exact boat. Unless your life is directly threatened and you are in imminent danger of death, you are not allowed to use lethal force here.

There are no "castle laws" here and defending property (like a car) does not justify killing another human being. If someone tries to steal my car and I kill him to stop the robbery, I'll spend the rest of my life in jail. If you look around you'll find out that the UK and most European countries have similar laws.

Of course there may be more to this story than what we see in the media...

Pat
Sure, sure... but murder in self-defense, while murder, is still not what I'd call "cold-blooded," as the article the OP linked does.

Cold-blooded murder is like walking up to a random stranger and shooting him in the back of the head.
02-21-2011, 08:17 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by deadwolfbones Quote
I'm wondering what justification this guy might have had for shooting two innocent men in the back in the middle of a busy street, in view of witnesses, etc.
It sounds like he shot them from inside through the windshield then got out and shot them again. I guess he goes by the motto that "anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice."

QuoteOriginally posted by ve2vfd Quote
There are no "castle laws" here and defending property (like a car) does not justify killing another human being. If someone tries to steal my car and I kill him to stop the robbery, I'll spend the rest of my life in jail. If you look around you'll find out that the UK and most European countries have similar laws.

Of course there may be more to this story than what we see in the media...
There are often times situations where something inside the car, like information, is worth more than the car itself... As a software developer there was a time when I was carrying around laptop with the personal information including social security numbers of 14 million people. I didn't go into a gas station to buy a snack without hauling my laptop along because losing that would get me in very hot water.
02-22-2011, 02:26 AM   #10
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quick question: define diplomatic immunity?
02-22-2011, 02:59 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by deadwolfbones Quote
Cold-blooded murder is like walking up to a random stranger and shooting him in the back of the head.
Is this different to hot blooded murder? I would have thought murder is murder?
02-22-2011, 03:16 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by deadwolfbones Quote
I'm also interested as to why you (and apparently the local media) dismiss out of hand the claim that this man was defending himself from armed thieves and instead label it a cold-blooded murder.
Because in the rest of the world, murder doesn't count as self-defence.
02-22-2011, 05:06 AM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by deadwolfbones Quote
I'm also interested as to why you (and apparently the local media) dismiss out of hand the claim that this man was defending himself from armed thieves and instead label it a cold-blooded murder. I'm wondering what justification this guy might have had for shooting two innocent men in the back in the middle of a busy street, in view of witnesses, etc.

Again, we Americans are coming at this with only the information provided to us by our own news outlets, most of which have been feeding the self-defense story. While many of us are not primed to believe the stories of innocence told by "private contractors" in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan (due to repeated abuses of power), we've also been given no reason to disbelieve this story in particular.
local media = american media or the pakistani media?

I cannot say much about the american media, but as far as the pakistani media goes, the guy killed two people in broad day light in one of the busiest streets of Lahore i.e in front of many witnesses. The witness account varies from Raymond's account. The forensic evidence does not support Raymond's statement. The victims did have guns, but they were found in locked position in the holster. They did try to slow him down by getting in front of him and reducing the speed of their motorcycles.

The motorcycles that are common in Pakistan are at max 125cc, and his SUV could have easily run them over. Shooting them suggests something else was going on.

In another twist, the call records from the cell phone retrieved from the car suggests Raymond's links with militants.

We caught a spy red handed, and now the US wants blanket immunity for the spy.
02-22-2011, 05:30 AM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by techmulla Quote
This was not out war, We only provided our land to USA to meet her objective. In the process, we invited unrest to our land.
You see, there's your problem right there:

Your government is not a partner in the war on terrorism--and not in the vague sense, because we're talking about Al Qaeda here on the Afghan border--and as such, your government has no right to be expected to be treated as a dependable ally.

This is surprising to you? Especially when your intelligence services are linked to hostile Taliban and Al Qaeda groups?

You cooperated for the U.S. dollars, and that's about it.

Last edited by Ira; 02-22-2011 at 05:38 AM.
02-22-2011, 05:37 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by ve2vfd Quote
Had this guy done the same thing (assuming he was being robbed) just a few miles to the north (in Canada), he would be in the same exact boat. Unless your life is directly threatened and you are in imminent danger of death, you are not allowed to use lethal force here.
Not really, and I bet you it's the same in Canada as in the U.S.:

You don't have to be fatally threatened to use lethal force--you only have to FEEL fatally threatened based on reasonable evidence. In other words, two guys robbing you with BB guns are not endangering your life, but if you thought the weapons were real, you're justified in blowing them away.
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