[mikemike]

So my understanding of unions is that they are supposed to give the "workers" equal footing in negotiations with the "owners." For example with the NFL the owners take $1 Billion off the top and the rest of the profit is split between the owners and the players.

The union structure seems to be designed to create a balance of power in for profit enterprises but how should it work in a not for profit business like the government where there are no owners or profits?

The voters who "own" the state aren't greedily holding out profits that they are stealing from the hard working employees because there are no profits.

[lithos]

You're the guy who started the Why Is Egypt Still In The Headlines, right?

[shooz]

mike!

That's the ticket! You need to join the footballers union!
Fame and Riches! How much is initiation?
If they won't let you join you could always attack another one.

I got it!!!!!!
---------------------The barbers union!------------------------------------

THOSE FREELOADING THUGS........!
They must be stopped! We need a corporation to cut our hair!
They could bring in illegal Mexicans
Pay 'em $1.98 and charge us a $20!
They could have an IPO within a year! The year after?
Hair cuts $40 There was a problem with the Chinese scissors suppler.
Shortage ya know.
The year after?
---------------------------------$50------------------------------------
There was a shortage of Mexicans.

Come to think of it.......I guess the corporations did learn a thing or two or from the USSR.

But at least we can stop those freeloading barbers. Having a union.....Of all the nerve.

[jeffkrol]

So my understanding of unions is that they are supposed to give the "workers" equal footing in negotiations with the "owners." For example with the NFL the owners take $1 Billion off the top and the rest of the profit is split between the owners and the players.

The union structure seems to be designed to create a balance of power in for profit enterprises but how should it work in a not for profit business like the government where there are no owners or profits?

The voters who "own" the state aren't greedily holding out profits that they are stealing from the hard working employees because there are no profits.

They have been giving and gave more of their "financial" standing. They want to keep their "voice"..... period.... One group says they have no "right" to collective bargaining.. the other does..
Do you really want $7.00/hr engineers or teachers?? Is that how you get the best employees?????
As pointed out in WI most are UNDER private wages and bene's may put them on a LEVEL playing field...
Bottom line in my eyes.. they CHOOSE to be unionized.. Gov. CHOOSES to take that away.. no matter how you look at it it an abuse of power.. If the gov asked for the "members" to vote whether they want a union or not OK so be it.. but he's taking a 50 year "choice" away.... profit or non-profit.. doesn't matter.
Pretty telling when they are willing to take financial cut after cut yet it takes a removal of their choice to be activated...............................
Eliminate one freedom to unionize might as well keep going...........l
BESIDES this is just the lynch pin to his austerity movement............ and needs to be "removed".....

Fitzgerald said Republicans could not back down now because the governor's two-year budget blueprint, to be released in coming days, slashes spending for public schools and municipal services by $1 billion or more. Local government leaders will need to make cuts without bargaining with employees, he said.

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9LHB6T80.htm
no point taking the hard way of discussion and compromise.. just slash and burn your way to errr prosperity???? not likely for the "small people" but sure is looking good for the large........
ALSO... workers pay goes back to the state coffers in taxes and goods purchased.. Union members in general are not "off shoring" their profits...
Anyways another response to your question.......

Unions are not just about challenging the "might and greed" of private-sector CEOs, but about recognizing the different incentives faced by managers and workers, and about correcting the tremendous power imbalance between those who can be fired for asking too many questions or demanding a different bargain and those who get to do the firing and would prefer a more submissive workforce and a status quo that they've created and defined.

And let's let go of the idea that the public is on the hook for unions made up of government workers but not for unions made up of janitors in Las Vegas hotels. If private-sector unions negotiate higher wages that lead to higher corporate costs, those costs are passed on to the consumer. If public unions negotiate higher wages that lead to higher taxes, those taxes are paid for by the taxpayer. If public or private unions negotiate work rules that stifle innovation or impede good service, the public bears the brunt of that, too.

But that goes in the other direction, too: Just as the public pays some of the costs of unions, they also reap many of the benefits. The weekend is one of those benefits, and so too are the pensions and health-care packages that many employers offer. A lot of the safety rules that many workers take for granted were the product of union agitation and pressure. Plenty of industries have had to increase their wages because unions took root in certain companies and the threat of their spread forced the non-unionized companies to give their employees gains similar to those made by the unionized workers. Unions are also the most powerful lobby fighting against things like tax cuts for the rich and for things like universal health care. And those benefits, just like those costs, have come from the labor power provided by the combined strength of public and private unions. Solidarity, and all that.

For the record, I'd happily take a deal wherein the collective bargaining rights of public workers were weakened but private workers were given card check and the other labor-law reforms needed to create some semblance of fair elections. But that deal is not on the table. For a variety of reasons -- some relating to international competition, some to the changing nature of the American economy, some relating to political decisions -- private-sector unions have been all but destroyed in recent decades. In fact, it's the opposite of the deal on the table, which, by weakening public-sector unions, would accelerate the destruction of private-sector unions.

American labor -- and all the good and the bad that it does -- is one unit, combining the density and dues of both its public- and private-sector members. If public-sector unions had never been founded, labor would've been much weaker in the 20th century. If they're killed now, a resurgence of private-sector unions becomes even more unlikely going forward. The stakes here are for American labor -- and the public -- as a whole. They are not limited to a few public-sector unions.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2011/02/you_cant_separate_public_and_p.html

---

Last edited by jeffkrol; 02-22-2011 at 07:15 AM.

[mikemike]

I am simply asking about the dynamics of negotiations between a union and a non-profit employer. What do they use as a basis for saying that the employees are being undercompensated for the value being created and they should get a raise, extra benefits, etc.?

It seems like with the private for profit companies it is a matter of getting a fair slice of the profit pie, correct?

[jeffkrol]

It seems like with the private for profit companies it is a matter of getting a fair slice of the profit pie, correct?

Since when did that ever happen????..... define "fair"..
Public sector unions are for "living wages" and benefits in order to safeguard your family... so are private unions. It's only human nature to ask for "more" when a company is raking in mega profits on your labor.. public unions are not exactly like that if that's what you mean........
They negotiate on "fair wages" for their services based on job and skills required.. there not into "blood sucking" for the sake of blood sucking..
most of the time the wages are compensated based on the private sector.. can be a bit circular until "market conditions" are reached..
States still collect "sales" ie taxes....and you do actually receive "goods" for your "purchases" ie police/fire/roads/salt/education/lunch/ect.......
State lawers must be compensated to the "market". Doctors, engineers, ect. or you just collect bad workersj...... state janitors ect. make a "living wage" probably above what the "market" would prefer but to me that's a reflection on the imbalance in the private sector.. a GREAT country should not have 3rd world wages in any sector......
In my area, like I mentioned before, press operators IF non-union, need to pay union wages and/or equiv. benefits or you just get the bad operators in general.... One market drives the other. Thus the insidiousness of collapsing the LAST price constraint.
In contrast look to Bell for blood sucking......
How The L.A. Times Broke The Bell Corruption Story : NPR

[legacyb4]

It goes way deeper than just "sharing of profits" in a union; it's about protection of worker rights & benefits, the right to earn a decent working wage, and giving a worker due process when things go south in his employment, and the power to bargain collectively with the employer.

What is a trade union?

Jeff

I am simply asking about the dynamics of negotiations between a union and a non-profit employer. What do they use as a basis for saying that the employees are being undercompensated for the value being created and they should get a raise, extra benefits, etc.?

It seems like with the private for profit companies it is a matter of getting a fair slice of the profit pie, correct?

[GeneV]

I am simply asking about the dynamics of negotiations between a union and a non-profit employer. What do they use as a basis for saying that the employees are being undercompensated for the value being created and they should get a raise, extra benefits, etc.?

It seems like with the private for profit companies it is a matter of getting a fair slice of the profit pie, correct?

Or their fair share of whatever pie is controlled by a large organization with all the bargaining power. There really is only one employer of any size for teachers, firemen, police, etc.

In the Wis. case, there is a profit element, since the governor is financing tax cuts to business that supported him with cuts in employee compensation.

[shooz]

mike, are you talking about companies or corporations.

Guilds or unions?

Libertarians sure are a confused and confusing bunch.
That's why I quit voting for them.

[jeffkrol]

Rebublicans "laughing" at the law...........

As if there needed to be any more signs of the depth of contentiousness at the Capitol, on Monday Barca accused Assembly Republicans of violating the state's open meetings law last Friday when they took a key vote on the budget repair bill minutes before 5 p.m., when the session was scheduled to start. Republicans started voting before Democrats had even entered the chamber.

Republicans ultimately agreed Friday to restart debate on the bill Tuesday, and John Jagler, a spokesman for Assembly Speaker Jeff Fitzgerald (R-Horicon), called that open-meetings issue "laughable."

Nevertheless, Bob Dreps, a lawyer who handles open government cases for clients including the Journal Sentinel, said voting before the scheduled start time for a legislative session "certainly violates" state law.

"There's no point in specifying a time if you're going to start ahead of that time," he said.

But pursuing a case would be "pointless" since Republicans have already undone the vote, he said.

Arrogance.....
GOP raises the stakes - JSOnline

[shooz]

Republicans don't need no stinkin' law, ethics or morals.
They have the Koch bros.Inc. and faux loonynews.
What more could they need?

[Pentaxle]

A Repubican will take on the people in the interst of power while a Democrat will take on power in the interest of the people, everytime.
Do I need to remind everyone about the bona fide WAR that was waged in WV when the miners tried to stand up for themselves and unionize the mines. Now a cosl company is ready to lay total waste to Blair Mountain, the site of the mine war and turn it into a mountain-rop removal "mine". Sometime people want union representation just so they can literally survive.