Four murdered

JohnInIndy · 02-22-2011, 10:51 AM

Maybe it's about time we just started kicking butt. Kill these animals before they ever have a chance to harm another person. Teach them a good lesson. But of course the mamby pamby's out there will object. Just like they always do.

Quote:

Pirates Murder
Four Americans

Yacht Taken Hostage Off East Africa
Gunshots End Negotiations Suddenly
NAIROBI, Kenya — Four Americans taken hostage by Somali pirates off East Africa were shot and killed by their captors Tuesday, the U.S. military said, marking the first time U.S. citizens have been killed in a wave of pirate attacks plaguing the Gulf of Aden and the Indian Ocean for years.
U.S. naval forces who were trailing the Americans' captured yacht with four warships quickly boarded the vessel after hearing the gunfire. They tried to provide lifesaving care to the Americans, but they died of their wounds, U.S. Central Command in Tampa, Florida said in a statement.

Nesster · 02-22-2011, 10:54 AM

?? ?? namby-pamby that I am, I'm in full agreement - and it should be all the affected nations joining forces, including Somalia's neighbors.

deadwolfbones · 02-22-2011, 11:01 AM

I'm in favor of zero tolerance for pirates.

Parallax · 02-22-2011, 11:01 AM

Quote:

They tried to provide lifesaving care to the Americans, but they died of their wounds,

Hopefully, the same can be said of the pirates.
Unless the world comes up with a plan that ensures that "the pirates die" regardless of what happens to the vessel and occupants, this will continue.

gokenin · 02-22-2011, 11:04 AM

ok but what do you do? There is no politically correct way to end this situation as a result no nation on the planet will stop it and they will continue to pay the ransom and continue to go about business as usual

Ratmagiclady · 02-22-2011, 11:08 AM

There's nothing 'namby-pamby' about US anti-piracy policies or rules of engagement: ask the *last* guys who ran afoul of it. That situation came off well tactically, ...this one, well, quite often storming a vessel would get hostages killed anyway, and policies of escalating just so armchair commanders can get their testosterone fix tend to just mean *more* dead hostages, straight up. (That's bad enough as it is: Pirates have a tendency to kill witnesses if *their* lives aren't at threat anyway. )

There's a reason piracy on the high seas is and always has been dealt with very severely. This doesn't mean that the most 'macho' option is categorically going to get the best outcomes.

Consider there's nothing worse for a hostage than a killer with nothing to lose.

These are professionals dealing with this stuff. Including weighing the risks to the people in danger. If you don't mind it being 'Big Government.'

Parallax · 02-22-2011, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by gokenin

ok but what do you do? There is no politically correct way to end this situation ............

The very first step is for everybody to forget that that term/concept exists.
"Political Correctness" is the false premise that it is possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

clmonk · 02-22-2011, 11:11 AM

I guarantee that if we went in there with a "You kill US citizens, you WILL die" attitude, and we implement that attitude just a couple of times, these people will look for other-than-US flag carriers to hijack. Similarly--you take one of our ships we WILL board you and take it back at ANY cost. We would not have to do that very many times and they would look elsewhere! Yes...we WOULD lose a few hostages if we implement this strategy. But they are currently holding 660 hostages!!! I wonder if we asked THEM what should happen, I would bet they wouldn't say...let's just keep ignoring it or paying ransoms in hopes the situation will go away. Besides...it's not like no one knows about the situation off Somalia. If they travel there they have to be aware that they do so at their own risk.

Parallax · 02-22-2011, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by clmonk

I guarantee that if we went in there with a "You kill US citizens, you WILL die" attitude, and we implement that attitude just a couple of times, these people will look for other-than-US flag carriers to hijack. Similarly--you take one of our ships we WILL board you and take it back at ANY cost. We would not have to do that very many times and they would look elsewhere!

Yep. There's an old adage that says "Kill one, teach a hundred"

Ratmagiclady · 02-22-2011, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by Parallax

The very first step is for everybody to forget that that term/concept exists.
"Political Correctness" is the false premise that it is possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

'Political Correctness' is a BS notion that anything can be blamed on someone failing to be right-wing enough.

Usually whined about by conservatives who feel 'oppressed' by someone being 'intolerant' of their intolerance.

As for pirates, well, once you invade someone else's ship at sea with weapons, your life is forfeit. Any mercy's incidental. Falls somewhere behind the lives of the crew, the craft itself, and any diplomatic niceties.

Parallax · 02-22-2011, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by Ratmagiclady

'Political Correctness' is a BS notion that anything can be blamed on someone failing to be right-wing enough.

Or left-wing. Just depends on which side of the fence you're on.

Ratmagiclady · 02-22-2011, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by Parallax

Or left-wing. Just depends on which side of the fence you're on.

'Left-wingers' whine 'PC?' Really?

All I here is someone trying to 'blame the libruls' for a tactical team not being 'aggressive' enough on general principle, against people clearly ready to execute hostages anyway. Guns-blazing attitudes don't change laws of physics. Hollywood notions aside, it's hard to sneak up on a boat, and it takes an eternity of seconds to bullrush one.

gokenin · 02-22-2011, 11:25 AM

actually by political correct I was simply stating that is the US or any nation were to act in such a way as to prevent future pirate activity they would be condemned on the world stage for be militaristic. There is no military option available that will prevent future pirate activity short of denying pirates access to the seas. I wasn't bringing out the usual right vs left argument thank you very much

deadwolfbones · 02-22-2011, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by gokenin

actually by political correct I was simply stating that is the US or any nation were to act in such a way as to prevent future pirate activity they would be condemned on the world stage for be militaristic. There is no military option available that will prevent future pirate activity short of denying pirates access to the seas. I wasn't bringing out the usual right vs left argument thank you very much

South Korea Rescues Crew and Ship From Pirates

Everyone seemed pretty happy about how this one went down...

ihasa · 02-22-2011, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by gokenin

There is no military option available that will prevent future pirate activity short of denying pirates access to the seas. I wasn't bringing out the usual right vs left argument thank you very much

Yeah there's no practical way of doing that, when Somalia is vast and to all intents lawless. It's an impossible situation with Somalia in its current state.

Lethal force should never be off the table when dealing with pirates, but it's not going to be a cast-iron deterrent IMO and it's not going to ensure the safe return of captives in every situation - I think if anyone's holding back from using lethal force at the moment, it's from minimising risk to the captives rather than some warm fuzzy PC feeling towards pirates.

02-22-2011, 10:51 AM	#1
JohnInIndy Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 794	Four murdered Maybe it's about time we just started kicking butt. Kill these animals before they ever have a chance to harm another person. Teach them a good lesson. But of course the mamby pamby's out there will object. Just like they always do. Quote: Pirates Murder Four Americans Yacht Taken Hostage Off East Africa Gunshots End Negotiations Suddenly NAIROBI, Kenya — Four Americans taken hostage by Somali pirates off East Africa were shot and killed by their captors Tuesday, the U.S. military said, marking the first time U.S. citizens have been killed in a wave of pirate attacks plaguing the Gulf of Aden and the Indian Ocean for years. U.S. naval forces who were trailing the Americans' captured yacht with four warships quickly boarded the vessel after hearing the gunfire. They tried to provide lifesaving care to the Americans, but they died of their wounds, U.S. Central Command in Tampa, Florida said in a statement.

02-22-2011, 11:11 AM	#8
clmonk Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Eastern TN Posts: 269	I guarantee that if we went in there with a "You kill US citizens, you WILL die" attitude, and we implement that attitude just a couple of times, these people will look for other-than-US flag carriers to hijack. Similarly--you take one of our ships we WILL board you and take it back at ANY cost. We would not have to do that very many times and they would look elsewhere! Yes...we WOULD lose a few hostages if we implement this strategy. But they are currently holding 660 hostages!!! I wonder if we asked THEM what should happen, I would bet they wouldn't say...let's just keep ignoring it or paying ransoms in hopes the situation will go away. Besides...it's not like no one knows about the situation off Somalia. If they travel there they have to be aware that they do so at their own risk. Last edited by clmonk; 02-22-2011 at 11:18 AM.

02-22-2011, 11:22 AM	#12
Ratmagiclady Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: GA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,563	Originally posted by Parallax Or left-wing. Just depends on which side of the fence you're on. 'Left-wingers' whine 'PC?' Really? All I here is someone trying to 'blame the libruls' for a tactical team not being 'aggressive' enough on general principle, against people clearly ready to execute hostages anyway. Guns-blazing attitudes don't change laws of physics. Hollywood notions aside, it's hard to sneak up on a boat, and it takes an eternity of seconds to bullrush one. Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 02-22-2011 at 11:28 AM.

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02-22-2011, 10:54 AM	#2
Nesster Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: NJ USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 13,072	?? ?? namby-pamby that I am, I'm in full agreement - and it should be all the affected nations joining forces, including Somalia's neighbors.

02-22-2011, 11:01 AM	#3
deadwolfbones Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 7,450	I'm in favor of zero tolerance for pirates.

02-22-2011, 11:01 AM	#4
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Quote: They tried to provide lifesaving care to the Americans, but they died of their wounds, Hopefully, the same can be said of the pirates. Unless the world comes up with a plan that ensures that "the pirates die" regardless of what happens to the vessel and occupants, this will continue.

02-22-2011, 11:04 AM	#5
gokenin Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: lowell,ma Posts: 1,899	ok but what do you do? There is no politically correct way to end this situation as a result no nation on the planet will stop it and they will continue to pay the ransom and continue to go about business as usual

02-22-2011, 11:08 AM	#6
Ratmagiclady Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: GA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,563	There's nothing 'namby-pamby' about US anti-piracy policies or rules of engagement: ask the last guys who ran afoul of it. That situation came off well tactically, ...this one, well, quite often storming a vessel would get hostages killed anyway, and policies of escalating just so armchair commanders can get their testosterone fix tend to just mean more dead hostages, straight up. (That's bad enough as it is: Pirates have a tendency to kill witnesses if their lives aren't at threat anyway. ) There's a reason piracy on the high seas is and always has been dealt with very severely. This doesn't mean that the most 'macho' option is categorically going to get the best outcomes. Consider there's nothing worse for a hostage than a killer with nothing to lose. These are professionals dealing with this stuff. Including weighing the risks to the people in danger. If you don't mind it being 'Big Government.'

02-22-2011, 11:09 AM	#7
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by gokenin ok but what do you do? There is no politically correct way to end this situation ............ The very first step is for everybody to forget that that term/concept exists. "Political Correctness" is the false premise that it is possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

02-22-2011, 11:14 AM	#9
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by clmonk I guarantee that if we went in there with a "You kill US citizens, you WILL die" attitude, and we implement that attitude just a couple of times, these people will look for other-than-US flag carriers to hijack. Similarly--you take one of our ships we WILL board you and take it back at ANY cost. We would not have to do that very many times and they would look elsewhere! Yep. There's an old adage that says "Kill one, teach a hundred"

02-22-2011, 11:16 AM	#10
Ratmagiclady Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: GA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,563	Originally posted by Parallax The very first step is for everybody to forget that that term/concept exists. "Political Correctness" is the false premise that it is possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. 'Political Correctness' is a BS notion that anything can be blamed on someone failing to be right-wing enough. Usually whined about by conservatives who feel 'oppressed' by someone being 'intolerant' of their intolerance. As for pirates, well, once you invade someone else's ship at sea with weapons, your life is forfeit. Any mercy's incidental. Falls somewhere behind the lives of the crew, the craft itself, and any diplomatic niceties.

02-22-2011, 11:17 AM	#11
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,332	Originally posted by Ratmagiclady 'Political Correctness' is a BS notion that anything can be blamed on someone failing to be right-wing enough. Or left-wing. Just depends on which side of the fence you're on.

02-22-2011, 11:25 AM	#13
gokenin Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: lowell,ma Posts: 1,899	actually by political correct I was simply stating that is the US or any nation were to act in such a way as to prevent future pirate activity they would be condemned on the world stage for be militaristic. There is no military option available that will prevent future pirate activity short of denying pirates access to the seas. I wasn't bringing out the usual right vs left argument thank you very much

02-22-2011, 11:33 AM	#14
deadwolfbones Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: La Crescenta, CA Posts: 7,450	Originally posted by gokenin actually by political correct I was simply stating that is the US or any nation were to act in such a way as to prevent future pirate activity they would be condemned on the world stage for be militaristic. There is no military option available that will prevent future pirate activity short of denying pirates access to the seas. I wasn't bringing out the usual right vs left argument thank you very much South Korea Rescues Crew and Ship From Pirates Everyone seemed pretty happy about how this one went down...

02-22-2011, 11:53 AM	#15
ihasa Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: West Midlands Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,066	Originally posted by gokenin There is no military option available that will prevent future pirate activity short of denying pirates access to the seas. I wasn't bringing out the usual right vs left argument thank you very much Yeah there's no practical way of doing that, when Somalia is vast and to all intents lawless. It's an impossible situation with Somalia in its current state. Lethal force should never be off the table when dealing with pirates, but it's not going to be a cast-iron deterrent IMO and it's not going to ensure the safe return of captives in every situation - I think if anyone's holding back from using lethal force at the moment, it's from minimising risk to the captives rather than some warm fuzzy PC feeling towards pirates.