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02-24-2011, 06:51 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Actually it's like this because YOU chose to have it this way...... How loud would you scream if the gov paid off every outstanding mortgage out there...... They could. How would those that sweated fro 30 yrs feel..... How about if you cut it off at say $100,000 or less???
No YOU and most of us are why they can't...........
THe gov can't DEFAULT on itself unless YOU let it.. period..
yes but think of the stimulus package that would be if you no longer had a mortgage hanging over your head would you spend that money and buy stuff ? go on vacations and spend money ? Even if you hoard it you still pay taxes on the increased interest you would make. think of the ripple effect for tax money it would generate for states and the fed. Would it still be such a bad thing?

02-24-2011, 07:06 PM   #17
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That's a bit extreme Jeff.

I suggested a full rollback on all property values, including a reset on mortgages.

Yes I would include commercial property too.

Everyone could make their payments. Everyone would share the loss of value.
02-24-2011, 07:10 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by shooz Quote
That's a bit extreme Jeff.

I suggested a full rollback on all property values, including a reset on mortgages.

Yes I would include commercial property too.

Everyone could make their payments. Everyone would share the loss of value.
How would you make up for the radical decrease in property tax revenue to the state and local governments?
02-24-2011, 07:55 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by gokenin Quote
How would you make up for the radical decrease in property tax revenue to the state and local governments?
Property tax is the same on a paid house as on a mortgaged one.....
This is a one shot deal......... paying off th mortgage.. afterward all is the same......

02-24-2011, 09:40 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by BigDave Quote
So you prove my point. They do NOT create anything. They are just spending money. Nothing has been manufactured except need, nothing has been produced, except legislation to spend the money they get, and if they spend too much, they want more.
Hm, how did I "prove your point" if I just listed many ways the government does create things? What, research is not creating things? Roads? Education? What are you talking about?


QuoteOriginally posted by BigDave Quote
So let's be like the old Soviet Union and have 100% employment and no one does anything real. Let us all go to the governmental breast and suck everything we can out of it until it runs (and has run) dry. Blame private industry for the unemployment because they care more about staying in business than going out of business with too many people on the payroll.
What on earth are you talking about? It is a great tactic to introduce some straw man and then pride yourself on knocking it down. 100% employmnet doesn't need to be anything like the SU and even if the goal was not this but just returning to the pre-recession levels (NAIRU) then how does what you're saying make any sense?


QuoteOriginally posted by BigDave Quote
They print the bills, but they do not create the wealth. And the more bills they print, the less they are worth. If the government created all the money, then you could go out and cash everything in and have the money in-hand. There is not enough bills to account for all the wealth in this country (houses, businesses, investments, etc.). If you think the government "makes all the money" then they should be able to get us out of the economic mess by doing the "making of the money" again. And if they are not doing this, then by default the economy is this way because they want it to be this way.

Have fun with the rest of this string. I am on the forum to delve into photography. Neither of us our going to convince each other to change minds anyway. It will just be a contest of who thinks they are smarter.

Never argue with a fool, they will drag you down and beat you with experience! So who's going to go first?
I don't appreciate being called a fool. I think you are confusing things. I wasn't even really proposing any political solutions, just pointing to the fact that under our current monetary system - which I daresay, you don't realy understand the workings of - the government spending is the only source of net money in the economy. I wasn't proposing that government should create all the wealth although there are clearly things that only a govt can create. I do believe most stuff in the economy should be produced by the private sector, but this sector has to have the ability to net-save financial asets and this can come if and only if the govt runs a deficit.
I have seen many hardcore conservatives starting to appreciate MMT - it is not political in nature - and draw their own conclusions of what must be done. The deficit is still too small to satisfy the private sector's desire to net save. The govt should lower the taxes or increase spending or both.
If you want to remain ignorant of how the things actually work in a fiat currency regime, then I am of course not holding you. But I would still suggest you spend a couple of hours with Mosler's book I linked too. It will not convince you to be a liberal (he isn't one, really) but it will make you smarter about the workings of our monetary system and of the possibilities therein.
02-25-2011, 07:04 AM   #21
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...but back to the Goldman analysis... my recent theory is that the Republicans secretly understand and enact MMT based policies, only they hide this with their public election politics. And many of us have long been aware that in a Republican world, the smart thing to do is to figure out the game and then take advantage - the typical liberal will spend time bitching about the game and complaining about the rules....

So, the stated policy goal of the congressional Republicans is to make Obama a one-term President. What policy would best ensure this? One that results in a bad economy for 2012. How does one get a bad economy in 2012, aborting the current recovery? By massive government contraction.

Once they've won the current round of the game (remember: games always exist, it is stupid to pretend they don't.... the purpose of games is to win them), the Republicans enact more MMT style stimulus (only they don't call it that), and as if by magic, defecit spending 'funded' by tax cuts becomes a Good Policy once more.
02-25-2011, 07:36 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nesster Quote
...but back to the Goldman analysis... my recent theory is that the Republicans secretly understand and enact MMT based policies
I think you're absolutely right! Some people point that out, see this comment, for example.

QuoteQuote:
Art Laffer understands monetary ops perfectly. His whole game is cutting taxes, cutting spending on social programs, and increasing corporate subsidies. This is the source of Cheney’s famous, “Deficits don’t matter.”

The problem is that “they” do get it and have been using it to advantage. Laffer’s current disciple is GOP “budget whiz” Rep. Paul Ryan. But now the fiscally conservative GOP wing is objecting to what Poppy Bush called “voodoo economics.” So we’ll have to see how this shakes out on the GOP side. So far the Lafferites are winning, with tax cuts blowing out the deficit, which is good from the MMT vantage at this point in time, with huge leakage from demand due to increased saving/delevering and an outsized CAD.

On a related note, check out this comment:

QuoteQuote:
I think Nixon was, at heart, a New Dealer and a Keynesian. Google his 1971 State of the Union– a full employment budget, more parks and green space, revenue sharing. Except for Kucinich, who in DC talks like that today? What Nixon understood (what Democrats have never learned) is the more liberal the reform, the more conservative it must be framed to be politically palatable. I think his problem was that he was too good at it, the Democrats were convinced he was a heartless bastard and if Nixon was for it, it must be bad. His most radical provision (even more so than his universal healthcare plan that makes Obamacare look like weak tea) was his negative income tax proposal, providing every working American with a guaranteed income and a job guarantee he dubbed “workfare” for the unemployed.
The income of poor people living in the South would be tripled, and the welfare rolls themselves would double in size. According to not a few economists, 60 percent of all indigent people would be brought above the poverty line immediately were this proposal to be enacted into law. Lyndon Johnson never dared go so far. Both architects of the programs– dubbed the Family Assistance Plan (FAP)– and correspondents, not to mention historians, have recognized the boldness of Nixon’s proposal.
Watergate and afterward: the legacy ... - Google Books

It was defeated in Congress by an odd coalition of idiot Northern liberals who didn’t think it wasn’t generous enough and racist Southern conservatives who didn’t cotton to the idea of poor black families having money in their pocket.
This all adds a very interesting perspective, I think...

02-25-2011, 07:40 AM   #23
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... my enduring image of Nixon isn't "I'm not a crook" but "We're all Keynesians now" -- although, Rich Little plays Nixon in my version
02-25-2011, 07:54 AM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nesster Quote
...but back to the Goldman analysis... my recent theory is that the Republicans secretly understand and enact MMT based policies, only they hide this with their public election politics. And many of us have long been aware that in a Republican world, the smart thing to do is to figure out the game and then take advantage - the typical liberal will spend time bitching about the game and complaining about the rules....

So, the stated policy goal of the congressional Republicans is to make Obama a one-term President. What policy would best ensure this? One that results in a bad economy for 2012. How does one get a bad economy in 2012, aborting the current recovery? By massive government contraction.

Once they've won the current round of the game (remember: games always exist, it is stupid to pretend they don't.... the purpose of games is to win them), the Republicans enact more MMT style stimulus (only they don't call it that), and as if by magic, defecit spending 'funded' by tax cuts becomes a Good Policy once more.
I'm afraid your right.... not hard to understand that as you remove money (ie wages) from the economy you remove the economy period.........
We have for too long allowed the big boys to play games, and the fools we are, are getting propagandized to keep it up....
Thus the fall of Rome, by our own hands...........
02-25-2011, 08:02 AM   #25
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Jeff, you see my point about moving the center? The Republicans managed to move the center so much to the right that Nixon seems about as liberal as the current most liberal congressman...
02-25-2011, 09:39 AM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by skyredoubt Quote
Jeff, you see my point about moving the center? The Republicans managed to move the center so much to the right that Nixon seems about as liberal as the current most liberal congressman...
As a believer in the "pendulum theory" of human nature I was hoping the complete economic meltdown might encourage the necessary swing to the "left" Guess I was wrong.. still not enough damage apparently.....
02-25-2011, 09:58 AM   #27
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...then again, Reagan must have been a Great President and his Revolution maybe as long lasting as FDR's
02-25-2011, 10:24 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by shooz Quote
That's a bit extreme Jeff.

I suggested a full rollback on all property values, including a reset on mortgages.

Yes I would include commercial property too.

Everyone could make their payments. Everyone would share the loss of value.[/B]
They've already done that to our bank accounts, now you want them to do it to property values as well?

"Everyone share the loss of value"? Let's do that with IRAs too. We add up the total value of all retirement accounts, divide it by the number of accounts, and that is what everyone's will be worth. Let's not forget the stock market either. Just declare the value of those that gained to be less and the value of those that lost to be greater. That way everybody can share loss of value.
I gotta hand it to ya, shooz. You really out did yourself on that one.
02-25-2011, 10:57 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
They've already done that to our bank accounts, now you want them to do it to property values as well?

"Everyone share the loss of value"? Let's do that with IRAs too. We add up the total value of all retirement accounts, divide it by the number of accounts, and that is what everyone's will be worth. Let's not forget the stock market either. Just declare the value of those that gained to be less and the value of those that lost to be greater. That way everybody can share loss of value.
I gotta hand it to ya, shooz. You really out did yourself on that one.
Just stick ALL your money in "health savings accounts" ........ tax free ones coming to a state near you..............
Just to add to the OT:
QuoteQuote:
Of course, their conclusions are not surprising. Virtually everyone with an ounce of economic literacy understands that cutting federal spending right now -- just as the economy is clawing its way out of the worst recession in 60 years -- will cost hundreds of thousands of jobs.

Right now, the government projects about a 2.7 percent rate of growth in the economy this year. So according to Goldman Sachs, if the Republicans have their way, most of that growth would be wiped out and we would be perilously close to a double-dip recession.

It's time to stop treating proposals for immediate cuts in spending as "reasonable" policy alternatives. These proposals are dangerous to the economy and the welfare of everyday Americans.

You have to ask yourself, why would the Republicans propose a policy that even Wall Street thinks would be suicidal for the economy? Here are two options:

Reason 1: To Damage the Economy for Political Purposes
Reason 2: Because the Inmates Have Taken Over the Asylum
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-creamer/are-republicans-trying-to_b_828189.html

Last edited by jeffkrol; 02-25-2011 at 11:14 AM.
02-26-2011, 12:49 AM   #30
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The European "austerity" budgets have led to the double dip recessions over there too. It will be no different here.
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