[shooz]

That was pretty harsh.

some are just worse at producing nothing than others.

How so?
Feels like blank accusation.

limited by the jack boot of government regulation on their necks.

It was the lack of said "boot" that caused the crash.
So more of the same for you?

no obstacles placed on their becoming the most productive in the world

We were exactly that in the 90s. What do you think happened?

What's standing between today and this golden future: labor unions, and the lax largesse of the private sector and its stubborn refusal to see economic reality.

Pure conjecture. Or if you prefer....spin.

[redrockcoulee]

The 37th largest oil and gas producer in Canada is the City of Medicine Hat. The workers are all city workers. Does the natural gas I burn in my furnace or the oil and gasoline Americans use in their cars that comes from this gas not exist? What do the banks and trust companies produce that the Alberta Treasury Branch does not? They by the way are a provincially owned banking institute developed in the 30s to replace the big banks closing branches in rural Alberta.

What do the majority of employed people actually produce? So all the service industry and communications workers be also counted as none producers. Where I used to work there were some people who made nerve agent and others who taught soldiers and first responders how to detect and decontaminate the same product. Did one public employee produce and the other not? I would think that a teacher produces a product and that is an educated pupil. Is this less important than producing a bob head for someone's car dash? Does it make a smaller impact on the national economy?

By definition no public employee produces anything is not true. It might be in the United States that your society makes sure of that but it is not a fact in the rest of the world. In Canada the Royal Mint produces coins and collector coins. Are these collector coins less of a real product that the so called collectibles produced by the Franklin mint. They also produce either the blanks or the minting of coins for other countries. I am sure that those people who get those coins in their change can actually see those coins.

Nesster are you requesting that your government drop the environmental health and safety regulations so that the workers can produce products as cheap as the Chinese? Do you want an drilling company to drill a sour gas well right next to your kid's school and have no rules apply to them? That is if you live in an oil and gas area like I do and a sour gas blowout near a school during school hours means you know longer have to pay the teachers or pick the kids up from school at the end of the day. Do you want the drug companies to be able to sell untested drugs or have lead or asbestos in your products?

I realize that it was the trade unions, especially the public service ones, that caused your housing bubble and the bank crisis. Cannot blame it on the right wing deregulation from consecutive governments from both your parties. And certainly cannot blame it on the corporations. The real people to feel sorry for are the rich who are making more and more money and paying less and less taxes and crying loudly how they are suffering.

If you really do not think that regulations are necessary then if you live in a city that draws on river water, ask that the new manufacturing plants are built upstream of your city's water intakes and have your city discontinue treating its drinking water, after all it may be run by public employees are they are not really producing safe water are they? Leave the mess to your great grandchildren!

[Nesster]

That was pretty harsh.

Wasn't it though?

...some are just worse at producing nothing than others.

How so?
Feels like blank accusation.

Follows logic: some workers are worse than others, and the worst should not even keep their jobs. If public employees 'don't produce anything' then some are worse at it than others.

Of course in this bizarro version, shouldn't those public employees who produce nothing very badly be rewarded?

(also, this is economic thinking that's mired in the 1800s or before, when it was thought that only a farmer actually produced anything new... the concept that 'added value' was in itself productive, i.e. the baker was also productive of wealth, as well as the bread seller, hadn't yet arrived.)

...limited by the jack boot of government regulation on their necks.

It was the lack of said "boot" that caused the crash.
So more of the same for you?

The context here was that government regulation makes firing employees a hassle - and by reverse logic, this same regulation makes hiring employees a hassle and so regulation... destroys jobs! Somehow, so does stimulus. Why? Because it slows down the natural tendency of business to shed jobs during bad times. And if you don't fire your employees, you sure as heck aren't going to hire any new ones, and you'll be feeling the effects.

or something like that. I know, Bizarro.

...no obstacles placed on their becoming the most productive in the world

We were exactly that in the 90s. What do you think happened?

Actually, US business and pro-business conservatives started harping on productivity during the Reagan years. We were slipping, falling behind Japan. Our pay was too high, our benefits too high, we had too short working hours.

(This was reactionary relative to the 70s utopianism: people actually seriously believed that by now we'd be working 20 hour jobs and we'd be enjoying lots of quality leisure activity, with general wealth spread out across all citizenry. How Naive )

Largely, this conservative/business dream has become true, the current brouhaha is just a continuation of a long process.

...What's standing between today and this golden future: labor unions, and the lax largesse of the private sector and its stubborn refusal to see economic reality.

Pure conjecture. Or if you prefer....spin.

Well, if you're a Koch or like minded, the above is provable in any industry.

Note that I compared productivity to, say, China. This definition of productivty is maximized with sweat shops paying the minimum possible for labor, and the cheapness of the produced widgets. Remarkably, labor unions are doubly horrible here: they keep us from getting to the minimum pay sweat shop economy, and at the same time, their slovenly work habits have ruined quality! Wouldn't you think this second thing was a GOOD THING? if the goal is to produce crappy stuff for cheap?

[Nesster]

If you really do not think that regulations are necessary then if you live in a city that draws on river water, ask that the new manufacturing plants are built upstream of your city's water intakes and have your city discontinue treating its drinking water, after all it may be run by public employees are they are not really producing safe water are they? Leave the mess to your great grandchildren!

By the wack conservative estimation, all your examples prove the point through exception! That oil and gas producer would be more efficient and wealth producing if it were private; furthermore, the presence of public companies in an otherwise private market distorts this market against the interests of the private companies. In other words Shackles the Productive Engine of Market Forces.

It is obvious the pro-business conservative hasn't worked out the details or examined reality too closely. This person doesn't need to! Ideas and ideology is enough!

There are several atavistic fallacies in the thought stream: that only certain kinds of economic activity are 'productive of wealth' - and this productivity is defined by the source of the capital or funds for the work. So, a burger flipper and hedge fund operator (and maybe a Ponzi schemer) are all 'productive of wealth' if they work in the private sector... and a brain surgeon, a miner or oil driller, or, God Forbid, a unionized teacher, by definition are NOT productive, if they are paid by the government. Why is this? Because this second set of people HAS THEIR HANDS IN THE POCKET of productive people, such as you and me (of course). See, I work, I pay taxes, and my taxes pay for these government workers. Perfectly sound logic, no?

Ultimately this goes back to the first economists, who believed the farmer (and I suppose the miner) was the only one who actually produced anything at all. Everyone else just took a cut from the production of the farmer.

[redrockcoulee]

By the wack conservative estimation, all your examples prove the point through exception! That oil and gas producer would be more efficient and wealth producing if it were private; furthermore, the presence of public companies in an otherwise private market distorts this market against the interests of the private companies. In other words Shackles the Productive Engine of Market Forces.

It is obvious the pro-business conservative hasn't worked out the details or examined reality too closely. This person doesn't need to! Ideas and ideology is enough!

There are several atavistic fallacies in the thought stream: that only certain kinds of economic activity are 'productive of wealth' - and this productivity is defined by the source of the capital or funds for the work. So, a burger flipper and hedge fund operator (and maybe a Ponzi schemer) are all 'productive of wealth' if they work in the private sector... and a brain surgeon, a miner or oil driller, or, God Forbid, a unionized teacher, by definition are NOT productive, if they are paid by the government. Why is this? Because this second set of people HAS THEIR HANDS IN THE POCKET of productive people, such as you and me (of course). See, I work, I pay taxes, and my taxes pay for these government workers. Perfectly sound logic, no?

Ultimately this goes back to the first economists, who believed the farmer (and I suppose the miner) was the only one who actually produced anything at all. Everyone else just took a cut from the production of the farmer.

You are right I should insist on getting rid of the oil and gas company so my taxes and utilities go up. IF you believe that government workers and government itself are by definition bad and no facts can be used against that argument so be it. I work for the military so I am unproductive, dishonest, lazy and probably a criminal in your mindset. So be it. You are wrong. Even if the public servant is working creating a product that pays their wages you claim that it is taking money from your pocket.

Society does not exist to serve private enterprise. I prefer living in a safe and secure city, with services from both the city and from companies, having police and fire protection, parks and facilities, low taxes and utilities and being able to have affordable health care all thanks to the three levels of government. None of this except perhaps health care would come from the private sector and that one is more efficient in lower overhead than the privately run American one.

The private sector is extremely important and for most of the part they are more efficient at creating products and services. But that does not mean that they are the only ones that can (cooperatives are great as well) or that anything that is not privately run is wrong, immoral or inefficient. There are other situations that have proven through examination by even right wing groups that government is better deliver of some services than the private sector. No matter how many times you say it cannot be possible does not make it false.

An ideology is having a belief that one way of doing things is better than another way. Dogma is discarding any evidence that contradicts your ideology. The big oil companies are doing fine even if Medicine Hat has its own and Canadian banks have gone decades without failing to make profits each quarter even with greater amounts of regs than their American counterparts. Mixed economies can and do work. If your ideal world is unregulated corporations so be it , it is not a world I would want to leave to the generation being born today. But by your own words nothing I can say would influence you as your mind is sealed against any evidence otherwise. Conservative politicians in this country have changed their minds when faced with facts but then they had responsibilties to the people not to their blind faith in their dogma.

[Nesster]

(by the way, I'm with you, I'm lampooning the other side...)

Actually, with much of this I lay the blame on incompetent and lazy management, people whose primary interest is surviving the next test and making sure they get their bonuses and what nots... and this goes for public as well as private enterprises.

A good manager assesses reality and molds behavior and strategy to this reality. A good manager stands up to his/her decisions even a years later, because he/she will have thought about the future impact of this year's decisions. Good management runs thriving businesses with unionized labor, or without, and in any sort of tax environment. We know this because there are examples.

A poor manager does not truly have the company's long term interest at heart - but rather getting by this quarter, this year, with compensation intact. Therefore, rarely does the poor manager look down a year or two. Rarely does a poor manager think of how things might go wrong (and plan for these contingencies) because that's a drag and who needs a drag... A poor manager finds factors outside his/her direct control to use as scape goats, or sacrifices some underlings, in order to survive. This one blames taxes, blames unions, blames politicians, blames the workers, blames everybody but his/her own management skills. We know these people exist, just as we know those good managers exist.

Good managers aren't necessarily nice, they can be tough and mean when required. A good manager, entering a bad situation, will definitely make difficult changes and force things... as will a bad manager. There's a difference however: a bad manager isn't reality driven and doesn't adjust to facts. A bad manager will do those layoffs, bust the unions, and so on, and blame the system - these are hired gun slingers and executioners. A good manager will also lay people off, but will define a vision of a better future that brings good things to everyone in the company. In a turn around situation, it's often not clear who's going to turn out good and who isn't.

[redrockcoulee]

(by the way, I'm with you, I'm lampooning the other side...)

Actually, with much of this I lay the blame on incompetent and lazy management, people whose primary interest is surviving the next test and making sure they get their bonuses and what nots... and this goes for public as well as private enterprises.

A good manager assesses reality and molds behavior and strategy to this reality. A good manager stands up to his/her decisions even a years later, because he/she will have thought about the future impact of this year's decisions. Good management runs thriving businesses with unionized labor, or without, and in any sort of tax environment. We know this because there are examples.

A poor manager does not truly have the company's long term interest at heart - but rather getting by this quarter, this year, with compensation intact. Therefore, rarely does the poor manager look down a year or two. Rarely does a poor manager think of how things might go wrong (and plan for these contingencies) because that's a drag and who needs a drag... A poor manager finds factors outside his/her direct control to use as scape goats, or sacrifices some underlings, in order to survive. This one blames taxes, blames unions, blames politicians, blames the workers, blames everybody but his/her own management skills. We know these people exist, just as we know those good managers exist.

Good managers aren't necessarily nice, they can be tough and mean when required. A good manager, entering a bad situation, will definitely make difficult changes and force things... as will a bad manager. There's a difference however: a bad manager isn't reality driven and doesn't adjust to facts. A bad manager will do those layoffs, bust the unions, and so on, and blame the system - these are hired gun slingers and executioners. A good manager will also lay people off, but will define a vision of a better future that brings good things to everyone in the company. In a turn around situation, it's often not clear who's going to turn out good and who isn't.

I did not recognize the satire. That is how realistic your posts were

[shooz]

The problem is, he told the truth!!!!!

It's the job displacement marketing program he was describing.

[cardinal43]

Because by definition no public employee produces anything, some are just worse at producing nothing than others. Private employees are all productive contributors to our wealth... and private companies should handle dead wood the way they want to, and are only limited by the jack boot of government regulation on their necks.

Did you forget to put a smilie on this? You can't possibly be serious. Whose definition is it that says no public employee produces anything? So a lawyer working for a private corporation produces something, but a lawyer working as a state employee doesn't?

[shooz]

Another conformation of the OP.
Is this guys nose low enough?

The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Employee Pensions - Rick Ungar - The Policy Page - Forbes

[Rico]

I am sorry both of these articles are ludicrous. The one linked in the original post authored by David Cay Johnston at tax.com and then this follow up article by Rick Ungar at Forbes Blog who claims Johnston has written a brilliant piece.

It is laughable that Ungar actually headlined his blog with "The Wisconsin Lie Exposed – Taxpayers Actually Contribute Nothing To Public Employee Pensions". Umm not only are all of the Public Employees Pensions being funded by taxpayers their salaries are being paid by taxpayers as well. What fantasy world do these two guys live in.

Public Employees salaries and pensions are paid through tax revenues collected from taxpayers. Every cent comes from taxpayers. What alternate universe are they living in to leave out this simple fact.

[BillM]

Public Employees salaries and pensions are paid through tax revenues collected from taxpayers

Wont argue that,do believe there is value to work being done,not something for nothing.
What's interesting is IF other 2/3 thirds of wisconsin legislative
initative is a mandate by the people(senate and signature by gov other 2/3)
Will be HUGE amount of private contracts awarded.Whether by bid or no-bid
contracts,private enterprise will be in the state government buisness.
How will the people controll state expenditure in this regard,profit margins for
ceo vs. rank and file worker.Should a profit for a company doing government buisness even be legal.
If "we the people" are going to watch the budget,now is the time
to get real serious about it.

[Chwisch87]

My apologies to real accountants, as I only play one on TV.

And from an accountant, that PL is pretty simplified lol. ;-)

[shooz]

We the people pay for everybody else's pension too.
Why do you hate the idea of a teacher or prison guard having one?
Most give 20 to 40yrs of their lives to these jobs.

What is said in both articles is correct. What is ludicrous is your disbelief and angry reaction.

[yucatanPentax]

What I find amazing is this:

By opening our nation up to "Free Trade," the corporatist elite have put our nation's workers on a playing field level with documented: 1) slave labor; 2) child labor; 3) prison labor; 4) forced overtime w/o pay at up to 16 hours a day with zilch for environmental protection (flaming rivers and suffocating air), artificial government deflation of monetary value, and nationalized monopolies cornering global markets on raw materials... and that's just China.

Now, can a company employing American workers afford to manufacture anything in comparison? Well, since we'd like our citizens to be able to breathe, to drink the water, to live without bizarre pockets of cancer and childhood leukemia, and would like our children to go to school rather than end up with crippled hands from tying 10,000 carpet knots per day from age 7, the answer is no.

But "Free Trade" put our workers on the level with such distorted marketplace realities. In other words, it was insane. Anyone who wishes to bother can go back and read the economic policies in place for nations who built strong economies and industrialized through the 1700s, 1800s, 1900s. Not one single nation did it on "free trade." Every last nation that built a strong, advanced, productive economy did so by protecting domestic production from undesirable undercutting by unscrupulous competition externally. Every last one.

So, what is the result? We've seen our American workers' wages fall -- real income for the median household has been level for over 30 years now --- while the very most wealthy have tripled their income. CEOs who were once paid an average of 80-180 times the wages of their lowest paid employee are now paid 400-500 times as high.

So, to remain "competitive" with unfair Chinese government subsidies in monetary policy, in raw materials supplies and prices, in labor and pollution conditions, American wages have frozen, even though productivity has continued to rise. And benefits have been falling by the wayside right and left.

A fool's game is being played by the corporatists, because they are impoverishing the customers who must buy their imported crap. And so we see the wages frozen in time, the benefits falling, medical coverage being dropped, all due to the fantasy -- which has no basis in history nor reality -- of "free trade."

After destroying the livelihoods of private workers, there is only one more target: public workers. And what difference does it make? Because the public workers still have unions (private workers jobs having been deported to countries without unions), they are able to stand up, weakly, to the corporatists who wish to line their pockets further. This power base must not be allowed to continue. Nothing must stand in the way of the very most wealthy people becoming even wealthier. Hence, the Koch brothers' offices in Wisconsin around the corner from the Capitol, where they wait until the time is right to snag the lucrative contract to control Wisconsin's power plants and escape taxation on their energy stock production facilities (oil and natural gas pipelines, among other things).

Because one worker has been impoverished by so-called conservative policies (they are anything but!), the argument is now that the remaining workers must, too, be impoverished! It is only fair! Private workers have been broken and humbled, so let's get those damn, fair-minded public workers as well. Let's screw them all!

Well, go ahead, folks, go ahead. Let's: 1) Ruin job security for firefighters. It's a thankless, deadly dangerous job already. Make them feel totally screwed and what quality of workers will you get in there then? 2) Destroy public school teachers' retirements. We all know those freaking HIGH ON THE HOG living Public School teachers with their ENORMOUS $30,000 a year PENSIONS are just stealing from the rest of us. 3) Break our contractual word with the police, because what does law and order and trust matter? Let's get the police to not trust their government official bosses and then we will really experience a world of justice and fair treatment, right?

What so-called "conservatives" have been doing for 30 years is trying to gut 60% of the country for the benefit of 10% of the country. And strangely, through constant screaming angry men on TV and radio, they are getting more than 1/2 the people to vote against their own best interests and elect those who are chiseling away at our very foundations.

Soon, our rivers will be ablaze again. Our skies will be dark and the air unbreathable. But that won't matter because no one will be working anyway. And those who had worked for 40 years and hoped to retire will be kicked to the curb without a dime.

Another 10 years worth of faux conservatives and our nation will be a 3rd world country. Income inequality is already worse than Egypt's. We're getting there fast.