[Ratmagiclady]

There are other forms of Photo IDs allowed, but carefully crafted to favor Republicans (for example, military ID works). This form has only passed the senate. House Republicans as well as Democrats have expressed interest in using all forms of state issued photo ID, including Student ID:



Representative King appears to be a principled Republican who is not just picking IDs likely to be carried by Republicans.

I have to say, at this point it takes more than 'appearing to be (selectively) principled when it benefits Republicans' before I'm willing to say 'Principled Republican' at this point.... After all that's been happening for so long and actual platforms and agendas and all....


Kinda like when they say, 'Both sides cheat, but we don't cheat, it's all errors, always in our favor, but see, someone we said was the other side cheats, so if there's any cheating it's all them, not us, therefore let us do it more and blame the other side for doing what we do, but we don't, they do....'

And, no, it doesn't have to make sense. The point of psychological double-binds is to *not* make sense, to make you uncomfortable enough to look away.

---

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 03-14-2011 at 02:43 PM.

[WJW]

Why single out the Concealed Carry Permits among the myriad of other state issued licenses, including occupational licenses? Why not a student ID if you can use any other ID issued by the state? Care to give the logic there, Mike?

The State of Texas issue three types of ID with a photo: CCP, Drivers License, and State ID card. The CCP has the most stringent proof and background requirements, the other two are the same and all include photos. (Well, you don't have to take the driving test for the ID.) All three are issued and verified by state agencies. School IDs are not uniform, may or may not include a photo, and used to be frequently faked as any bartender can tell you.

My personal feeling on the ID thing is that if it is a type of ID that is good enough for the TABC, then it should be what is required to register to vote. From the TABC website:


>However, a person who sells a minor an alcoholic beverage does NOT commit an offense if the minor falsely represents himself to be 21 years old or older by displaying an apparently valid proof of identification that:

-contains a physical description and photograph consistent with the minor's appearance;
-purports to establish that the minor is 21 years of age or older; and
-was issued by a governmental agency.

The proof of identification may include a driver's license issued by any state, a U.S. passport, a military identification card or any other ID issued by a state or the federal government.<

[GeneV]

The State of Texas issue three types of ID with a photo: CCP, Drivers License, and State ID card. The CCP has the most stringent proof and background requirements, the other two are the same and all include photos. (Well, you don't have to take the driving test for the ID.) All three are issued and verified by state agencies. School IDs are not uniform, may or may not include a photo, and used to be frequently faked as any bartender can tell you.

My personal feeling on the ID thing is that if it is a type of ID that is good enough for the TABC, then it should be what is required to register to vote. From the TABC website:


>However, a person who sells a minor an alcoholic beverage does NOT commit an offense if the minor falsely represents himself to be 21 years old or older by displaying an apparently valid proof of identification that:

-contains a physical description and photograph consistent with the minor's appearance;
-purports to establish that the minor is 21 years of age or older; and
-was issued by a governmental agency.

The proof of identification may include a driver's license issued by any state, a U.S. passport, a military identification card or any other ID issued by a state or the federal government.<

There are all kinds of other photo ID cards states issue for professional licenses. I have a photo ID for my federal bar card. I don't think the GOP representative was wasting ink by including other photo ID. Moreover, the number of photo IDs keeps increasing.

Any ID (especially a driver's license) is frequently faked by minors if you really talk to a bartender. If that is the test, then throw all of them out. My college ID never stated my age, but perhaps that has changed. If this is meant to keep immigrants from voting, well I've seen more of those fake IDs in legal proceedings than you could imagine. That is where the biggest fake ID industry is. We are not talking about high school or junior college. Students have to prove quite a bit to get resident status at a state university.

[MRRiley]

Gene, Does your bar card include your address? Do TX student IDs also bear the student's permanent TX address (not just their dorm address)? As you imply... Most schools require students wishing to qualify for "in state" status to provide proof of some kind of actual in-state "domicile" and do not consider a dorm or other campus student housing to be a "legal residence.

To be clear... I have no problem with any other state or federally issued photo ID that includes a photograph and the bearer's Texas address. However, something such as my National Press Photographers Association ID however, or someone's Plumbers Union (photo included) ID card should be absolutely worthless for purposes of validating identity at the polls.

As for military IDs this could be a problem. They do not bear addresses so are of no use at all proving TX (or any other state's) residency or eligibility to vote. A military member wishing to vote in TX needs to establish legal residency there, part of which is obtaining a state identification document. This document, generally a driver's license, is then used at the polls. A military ID is moot at that point.

Mike

[GeneV]

Gene, Does your bar card include your address? Do TX student IDs also bear the student's permanent TX address (not just their dorm address)? As you imply... Most schools require students wishing to qualify for "in state" status to provide proof of some kind of actual in-state "domicile" and do not consider a dorm or other campus student housing to be a "legal residence.

To be clear... I have no problem with any other state or federally issued photo ID that includes a photograph and the bearer's Texas address. However, something such as my National Press Photographers Association ID however, or someone's Plumbers Union (photo included) ID card should be absolutely worthless for purposes of validating identity at the polls.

As for military IDs this could be a problem. They do not bear addresses so are of no use at all proving TX (or any other state's) residency or eligibility to vote. A military member wishing to vote in TX needs to establish legal residency there, part of which is obtaining a state identification document. This document, generally a driver's license, is then used at the polls. A military ID is moot at that point.

Mike

At the point where the TX law kicks in, the address on the ID is not important. My understanding is that the law that passed the senate is talking about what to registered voters who have gone through whatever process TX uses to verify your address and eligibility. They would have to already have Mike Riley on their list as a valid voter in this district, and they are looking to check you off. This photo ID check is for identification purposes, not registration.

Unless there is a computer database accessible to check the address, you would of course need an ID with an address for something like motor voter registration.

[MRRiley]

Not sure about TX as I never voted there but VA includes your name AND address in the voter rolls and verifies your eligibility by checking the name and address on your photo ID.

No ID, no Vote. Address doesn't match, no Vote. And you have to register a minimum of 7-22 days (depends on the type of election) prior to election day so no way to register at a polling place on election day. TX appears to require at least 30 days to get you on the roll.

To me this is just a natural part of the process to insure that only eligible people can cast a ballot. If someone chooses not to get a proper state issued ID then, as far as I can see, they have forfeited their right to vote IF showing such an ID is required. And getting these IDs is not that great of a hardship is it? In fact this law will even make it FREE if all someone wants is the State ID Card (not a DL)... From the background article...

Sen. Troy Fraser , R-Horseshoe Bay, author of the bill, noted that it will allow Texans to get a state ID card for free from the Department of Public Safety. The state ID is one of the photo IDs that would establish the voter’s identity for voting purposes.

Of course if they don't have ID because they are illegal then they shouldn't be voting here anyway... regardless of what party they might vote for.

[GeneV]

Not sure about TX as I never voted there but VA includes your name AND address in the voter rolls and verifies your eligibility by checking the name and address on your photo ID.

No ID, no Vote. Address doesn't match, no Vote. And you have to register a minimum of 7-22 days (depends on the type of election) prior to election day so no way to register at a polling place on election day. TX appears to require at least 30 days to get you on the roll.
.

If someone applied VA law that way, it would appear they were mistaken. Virginia State Board of Elections : Voter ID Requirements in Virginia

According to the VA Board of Elections:

Acceptable forms of identification include the following:

* Virginia voter identification card
* Valid Virginia driver's license
* Military ID
* Any Federal, state or local government-issued ID
* Employer issued photo ID card
* Social Security card

Any voter who forgets to bring acceptable ID to the polls may still vote but, will be requested to sign, under oath, an Affirmation of Identity form affirming that he/she is the voter he/she claims to be

First time voters need only bring a utility bill. I bet the employer ID does not have an address, and I know the SS card does not.

[MRRiley]

Fair enough Gene... Man enough here to own up when I make an error. They always ask for a "current photo ID" so I didn't know they took less reliable forms of ID. I've seen them turn away folks without ID but maybe I missed the part where they refused to sign a form attesting to their identity.

I question the sanity of accepting SS cards and Employer IDs as well as utility bills, etc. I suspect that VA may soon follow Indiana and Texas (if this TX measure passes) in tightening up ID requirements. Thanks for pointing me to that site because now I see that VA has more holes in it's voter IDs than a 100' length of chicken wire.

The first time voters you cite though must still be on the registration rolls and will be marked as "First Time Federal" (doesn't seem to apply to strictly local elections... although since the vast majority of VA elections are tied to a Federal election event this may be a largely moot point).

Mike

[GeneV]

Until someone comes up with proof that there really is a problem with voter fraud that justifies the stringent ID requirements, I question the sanity of these measures which provably diminish voter turnout among the most disadvantaged in the democracy with some of the poorest participation in the world.

David Iglesias, a good lawyer and committed ethical Republican, would have been U.S. Attorney to the day the Bush adminsistration left office if he could have found some significant voter fraud in New Mexico.

To justify the concerted push across the country by conservatives who usually would require that laws be passed only when necessary, I would expect that someone just caught a trainload of North Korean agents about to descend on a polling place brandishing mail for John Smith as ID.

[Parallax]

Until someone comes up with proof that there really is a problem with voter fraud that justifies the stringent ID requirements, I question the sanity of these measures which provably diminish voter turnout among the most disadvantaged in the democracy with some of the poorest participation in the world.

........

That's right. The critical thing is to get people involved and voting.
So as Al Capone said, "Vote early, and vote often".

[Phil1]

Strange accepting an SS card as I.D. They used to have on them 'Not to be used for I.D. purposes'. They are about as easy to fake as a green card, Mexican Matriculara card or a business card and are well known as worthless I.D. Just sayin.

[GeneV]

Strange accepting an SS card as I.D. They used to have on them 'Not to be used for I.D. purposes'. They are about as easy to fake as a green card, Mexican Matriculara card or a business card and are well known as worthless I.D. Just sayin.

Frankly, if someone really wants to defraud the voting process, anything is easy to falsify with today's printers. There really is no such thing as an "undocumented worker." I've had people admit in court proceedings that they swam the river, but they never missed a beat with ID cards.

Think about who the poll workers were last time you voted. Do those elderly volunteers really have the training or the equipment to spot any kind of fake? We would have to create another government agency of poll enforcement for this to make any real sense from a security point of view. This is another reason why I tend to see it as a cynical political move.

[GeneV]

OK, I'll answer my own question about voter fraud. An article appeared today in my local paper that as many as 83,000 people on the voter rolls are associated with numbers that don't immediately check out. I don't know that all of those were illegals, which is the conclusion the paper's headline jumps to. There is also the strong possibility of a mistake in a government computer. However, my suspicion is that with the ones that are not properly here, because a number of other residence benefits use registration to vote as an indicia of residency, that people are being encouraged to register who have no intention of voting. A tiny fraction of those 83,000 (37 individuals to be exact) are indicated as having voted, and it is not clear that they voted illegally.

Our very conservative governor is intent on taking away the drivers licenses from non-citizen residents. However, that is actually how these individuals were found out. They applied for a drivers license overtly as non-citizens, and the numbers were checked against other databases, such as voter registration. That led to a larger investigation of the integrity of the registration records.

No voter ID would have helped this situation at all. These people used fake ID to register, and could have used the same ID to vote, if they really wanted to vote. There would be far less risk to them at the time of voting than the time of registering.

[Phil1]

Here in Calif at least you have to pre register and an address check is done at some level to verify same. The 'I.D." should be presented at the polling place so it is some level of verification. The option is let anyone vote any where, any time and as often as you feel like it dead or alive. This kinda makes the vote worthless.

Presenting a genuine meanigful I.D. at the time of voting is no more a violation of rights as producing I.D. for commercial transactions, welfare, employment, arrest and so on. My school age grand kids have picture I.D.s It does not seem to be any problem and they did not have to deal with any nazis to get them or have to wear arm bands. Even genuine brown peeps can get them at no cost. My dark brown half sister even had a drivers license and voted every chance she got.

Yes you can fake I.D.s, birth certificates and school records. Los Angeles I believe leads the world in this enterprise. MacArther Park area goes 24/7 with any I.D. with any picture 24/7. Of course this is a sanctuary city that likes no borders, is bankrupt and the Mayor, Mr. Vivamexico, wants the city to build a high fence around his property. You know how that is.......

[jeffkrol]

Daily Kos: Hidden costs of "free" photo voter IDs

Get out your checkbook, and wait your turn

To get a “free” photo-voter ID in Missouri, a voter would have to jump through a number of bureaucratic hoops—many of which involve fees. Here’s a tally of the costs that could be associated with getting that “free” ID.

To get a voter-photo ID in Missouri, if you don’t already have one, you would have to present ALL of the following documents that apply to you:

Proof of lawful presence
Certified birth certificate: $5 – $30 Up to 10 weeks waiting period
Certificate of Naturalization or Citizenship: $345 for replacement copy
Proof of lawful identity
Social Security Card: $0, but need birth certificate
Proof of residence
Current utility bill or government check with address: $0 -
Proof of name change [if applicable]
Marriage license:$15
Divorce decree: $10
Court order,
Adoption papers
Amended birth certificate : $15

Proof of lawful residence is among the most problematic requirements, as many Americans do not have their birth certificate, passport, or naturalization papers readily at hand.

As reported by Demos,



A national survey conducted by the Opinion Research Corporation found that 5.7 percent of the native-born adult population does not have a birth certificate or US passport at home. Assuming that this 5.7 percent share is the same in Missouri as in the nation as a whole, an estimated 238,000 Missourians would not be able to obtain the required photo ID to cast a ballot.

In addition, the survey results show how certain demographic groups would be disproportionately affected by a photo ID law because they are much less likely to have the necessary documents to acquire a photo ID. These vulnerable populations include people without a high school diploma (9.2 percent of whom lack the documents), rural residents (9.1 percent), African Americans (8.9 percent), households with incomes below $25,000 (8.1 percent), and the elderly (7.4 percent). Assuming that the above percentages are the same for Missouri as for the nation as a whole, a photo ID requirement would potentially disenfranchise:

* more than 90,000 rural residents;
* 70,000 low-income residents;
* 50,000 residents without a high school diploma;
* 50,000 elderly residents; and
* 40,000 African Americans.

State budget would take a hit, too

“Free” photo voter IDs won’t be free for Missouri state government either. The fiscal note on SB3 pegs the cost of implementing photo IDs at $21.2 million. Under the proposed law, Missouri would not charge residents for the non-driver photo ID itself. The costs would come from reduced income to the Missouri Department of Revenue, which currently charges $11 for a non-driver photo ID, and from the money that would need to be budgeted for the Missouri Secretary of State’s office for an educational campaign about the new rules and for training election workers to implement them.

Why bother?
roponents of Missouri’s proposed photo-voter ID law say that it’s about protecting against voter fraud. But, in fact, according to Missouri’s Secretary of State, there has not been a single, documented case of voter impersonation in the state. Anyone who has ever served at a voting precinct as an election worker knows that there are many safeguards and political checks and balances already in place to make sure that voters are who they say they are. In addition, severe penalties are already on the books for voter impersonation. Under the current rules for voter identification, mass voter impersonation campaigns are highly unlikely. So, the voter-fraud rationale for photo voter ID is clearly a ruse for the real motivation: suppressing the vote among certain demographic groups.

Photo voter ID, already struck down once as unconstitutional by Missouri’s own Supreme Court, is a repressive, anti-democratic law that Missouri doesn’t need and, oh, by the way, can’t pay for.

YES , WHY BOTHER?.........
you guys really do want a new revolution don't you........