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03-26-2011, 09:32 AM   #1
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"Anonymous" letter

Dear US Citizens,

We, Anonymous, would like to offer you, America, the opportunity to join and support our movement. We are a group that formed on the Internet—one that knows no constructs or absolutes, and one that has recently grown exponentially. We would like to introduce an Operation. An Operation that involves Americans getting our National Rights and dreams back. Right now, you can help by passing on the Information. Information is Power. Share the Power of the Information with other like-minded individuals. The more people we represent, the more Power we have, both as individuals and as Anonymous. Thank you for your time and Power.

- Anonymous

Citizens of the United States of America

Many events have taken shape over the course of only a few years, and slowly our system has been working towards gains of itself rather than the gains of its people. While we all have watched and rallied against the system working against us, there have been other gains of the system that have gone without a peep as backroom deals and bargaining allow for the passing of legislation and research funding that has resulted in the loss of more liberties such as censorship, phone and Internet surveillance, and eminent domain laws, Not to mention the higher taxes, lower wages, and loss of work due to exports deals. We repeat the history of our mistakes instead of evolving our society. Generations in the past spoke of what we face as current issues, the only difference being that of our technological advancements. We have forgotten such words our society has found guidance and value in:

“We hold these truths to be self-evident

That all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of those ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its power in such form, as to them shall seems most likely to affect their Safety and Happiness.”

In the past few months, Anonymous has made headlines through the actions of a few. The media tries to instill fear of which Anonymous is as a “group,” and in the process failed to recognize it as an “ideal” that is gaining momentum.

Anonymous is an ideal that the people can use to further help other people. In this case, you’re not being heard and transparency in government operations is non-existent in many matters. Mobilize yourself to find information, and we’ll be giving you resources to further help you. Take the information you find and tell your government your demands.

We want AMERICANS to wake up! We want AMERICANS to read! We want AMERICANS to think, and above all question all things! We want AMERICANS to analyze, criticize, critique and learn to read between the lines, to expose and to deconstruct! We want you to believe in the infinite power of the people! We want you to learn that we’re all truly brothers and sisters in humanity regardless of all the artificial barriers that have been set up to separate us!

“Think For Yourself. Question Authority.” – Timothy Leary

Inform. Educate. Guide. Evolve. Wake up the People. The time for the next step in our species’ social evolution has come!

To effectively reform the system that has enslaved us, we must consider following the advice and example of those who have preceded us. Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, and JFK are good places to start. All took fierce positions against central banking, government corruption and corporate power.

The time has come for us to unite, the time has come for us to stand up and fight! You are Anonymous!

We are in the information era.

We are Anonymous,

We are Legion,

We do not forget,

We do not forgive,

Expect us.

Grievances and demands

A starting point for reform would be established by citing a list of worth objectives provided by ampedstatus.com:

Enforce RICO Laws
Break Up the Big Banks
End the Fed
Break Up the Mainstream Media / encourage citizen journalism
Shut the Revolving Door
End Closed Door Lobbying
Increase Government Transparency
End Corporate Personhood
Amend Campaign Finance
Verify All Votes
Investigate War Profiteers
Investigate War Crimes
End the Wars
Restore Civil Liberties
Uphold the Constitution
Clean Air, Water & Food
Reduce Healthcare Costs, Profiteering
Make Healthcare a Human Right
Improve Education For All, Reduce Costs
Reform Prison System
Reform Drug Laws (Stop spending so much money on drugs! NYC spent $75 million on marijuana arrests. New York Spends $75 Million A Year On Marijuana Arrests)
Immigration Reform
Rebuild Infrastructure
Protect Internet Freedom
Empower States’ Rights
End Corporate Welfare
Fair taxes for everyone!
Enforce corporate responsibility
Force corporations to apply local labor laws in their global operations
Strengthen environmental laws and force corporations to clean up their act
Work for real separation of church and state – and a real split between corp and state?
Reinstate Habeus Corpus
Allow felons who have paid their debt to restore voting rights
Stop prison labor from competing with local businesses

Additional objectives

End lifetime appointments to the SCOTUS
Abolish the “Patriot Act”
Abolish the lobbying system (no paid lobbyists)
Close Guantanamo
Establish and define “financial terrorism” as a treasonous act and prosecute offenders vigorously
Enshrine gender equality in the constitution
End corporate money in the election process
“Reduce non-emergency military funding”

Hard to argue against this.

03-26-2011, 09:46 AM   #2
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Like, peace baby........

03-26-2011, 10:04 AM   #3
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The problem with manifestos like this is that while they may be laudable, they are rarely if ever either realistic or achievable. Also, no one is going to agree that any one, much less all, of the points are the best solution to any given problem.
03-26-2011, 10:53 AM   #4
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At one point the USA was considered unrealistic and unachievable too.
You have to take the first step.
Dismissive comments have never accomplished anything.

03-26-2011, 11:52 AM   #5
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I'm gonna pick one of your proposals and ask how it would be achieved...

QuoteQuote:
Force corporations to apply local labor laws in their global operations
What local labor laws would be applied? The laws where their HQ is located? The laws at each site? Whichever law was the most strict? And what about local laws that are in direct disagreement?

This is unworkable and unenforceable short of the establishment of a world government which I, personally, would oppose vigorously...

Last edited by MRRiley; 03-26-2011 at 12:23 PM. Reason: danged typos
03-26-2011, 11:55 AM   #6
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QuoteOriginally posted by MRRiley Quote
The problem with manifestos like this is that while they may be laudable, they are rarely if ever either realistic or achievable. Also, no one is going to agree that any one, much less all, of the points are the best solution to any given problem.
They also tend to break up because of infighting over petty issues. That's one of the reasons the Republican and Democratic parties have held on for so long. Just about everyone would agree with the manifesto and those in power today would also agree in principle. As the saying goes, "The Devil is in the details...."

Fair taxes for all. That's a good one. Who defines fair? There is a thread running about GE paying no taxes last year. My defination of fair and GE's probably won't be the same and that's where the trouble starts. You could pick apart every line of the manifesto in much of the same way. If Anonymous becomes a political party, some change could possibly happen. But the loose knit bunch calling themselves the Tea Party have pretty much done this already. One of the lines in the manifesto concerns open govt. with it's statements about transparency and lobbying. Anonymous will have to become transparent if they want to become credible. While thousands may agree with the manifesto in a poll, I doubt that they will carry that feeling to election day. If they did, then Ron Paul would be in the White House today as most of this looks like it was copied off his campaign flyers.
03-26-2011, 03:25 PM   #7
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QuoteOriginally posted by MRRiley Quote
I'm gonna pick one of your proposals and ask how it would be achieved...



What local labor laws would be applied? The laws where their HQ is located? The laws at each site? Whichever law was the most strict? And what about local laws that are in direct disagreement?

This is unworkable and unenforceable short of the establishment of a world government which I, personally, would oppose vigorously...
I think I would disagree with you on if it is workable or not. For example I work for a federal government department, DND however although I work on federal land I am also under provincial requirements or should say they are as far as working rules go such as minimum wages and worker's compensation.

Our biggest tennent is the same department but a different government or shall I say country. So the British government operating on Canadian soil must abide by both sets of rules and the strickest one if they do not agree. So an extremely beaucratic government department can do it therefore a corporation can as well. In addition the British Army owns houses within the City of Medicine Hat and all of the city by-laws apply to those houses not UK regs. At work there have been problems as the Brits keep trying to plug equipment into the grid and not only are the plugs different but so is the electricity, theirs run on the wrong side of the wires or something (joke)

Besides as it stands currently any company working in Canada for example must obey Canadian law and if that conflicts with the laws of their own land then while in Canada Canadian law trumps. A wonderful example is Cuban pajamas and Wal-Mart.

03-26-2011, 03:29 PM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by MRRiley Quote
Force corporations to apply local labor laws in their global operations
What's so hard about that?
Do you endorse child labor?
Do you endorse working in unsafe conditions?
This the easiest one of the bunch.
03-26-2011, 03:53 PM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
I think I would disagree with you on if it is workable or not. For example I work for a federal government department, DND however although I work on federal land I am also under provincial requirements or should say they are as far as working rules go such as minimum wages and worker's compensation.

Our biggest tennent is the same department but a different government or shall I say country. So the British government operating on Canadian soil must abide by both sets of rules and the strickest one if they do not agree. So an extremely beaucratic government department can do it therefore a corporation can as well. In addition the British Army owns houses within the City of Medicine Hat and all of the city by-laws apply to those houses not UK regs. At work there have been problems as the Brits keep trying to plug equipment into the grid and not only are the plugs different but so is the electricity, theirs run on the wrong side of the wires or something (joke)

Besides as it stands currently any company working in Canada for example must obey Canadian law and if that conflicts with the laws of their own land then while in Canada Canadian law trumps. A wonderful example is Cuban pajamas and Wal-Mart.
For one thing applying local laws to local operations of an international corporation is not how I interpreted the proposal....

QuoteQuote:
Force corporations to apply local labor laws in their global operations
To me this proposal says to apply the labor laws that apply to one locality or country to the global operations of the company. Thats why I say it is unworkable and unenforcable. You cannot enforce the laws of the United States on corporate property or operations located in India. Nor could you enforce Israeli local labor laws on a part of an Israeli company's facilities located in Canada. Company policy may dictate that the "strictest" policy applies, but if the subsidiary choses to ignore that and go by a weaker local policy, that would not likely be considered a "crime" in the local area.

QuoteOriginally posted by shooz Quote
What's so hard about that?
Do you endorse child labor?
Do you endorse working in unsafe conditions?
This the easiest one of the bunch.
Local labor laws in Bangledesh may allow child labor and work conditions which would be considered unsafe in other countries. Thats why I asked which local labor laws you were talking about. See this is part of the problem. Your proposal is so imprecise that we don't know what you mean?

So just what local laws do you mean they should have to apply and to what extent across the company as a whole?
03-26-2011, 04:40 PM   #10
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Mike

A country can apply some of its laws overseas such as both of our countries have done so with the sex tourism business, one can be convicted in North America of a sex crime committed in Asia even if it was not a crime there but only here. I think there are laws on the books that require corporations to obey our laws in foreign countries unless the laws there are tougher. You are right though it could be hard to enforce.

The biggest mistake in my mind of the Free Trade Agreement is that Mulroney and Reagan did not sign into it that whatever health safety or environmental laws were the strongest would be required for goods to be exempt from tariffs. Then it could have been extended to NAFA and all new ones, that is where this would take place.

In the case of the British army if what they do in Canada is less strict than what they do in the UK they can and will be charged however the difference is often at least in the UK and Canada the government is much tougher on its own departments than it is on industry. We do have much tighter regs for storage tanks for example then if we were not federal government.

I do think that all of us are in agreement that we should not be in a race to the bottom. Unless and until there are international agreements that take these into account or tariffs or duties on goods produced in other means than unfortunately that is what is happening today.
03-26-2011, 04:48 PM   #11
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Shooz

By the way with the upcoming election here in Canada thought you might be interested to know that we do not give voting rights back to felons after they have served their time because they do not lose them in the first place. Yes if you are in prison you can still vote in federal elections. I think you must vote in your original riding (your congressional district) but you do get to vote. The top two people with Elections Canada cannot however vote.

I never have figured out why you let your political parties register the voters. Here the government does and all they have about you is your name and address, no party leanings etc. Elections Canada hires a bunch of people for registration and for manning the polls. In the old days it was not as honest as one riding in Ontario at a single voting station in the 1800s that had 27 voters one party beat the other by I think it was 34 to 29. Beer was involved!
03-26-2011, 05:19 PM   #12
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How about if an American manufacturer breaks child labor laws by moving operations to another country to skirt them, the CEOs are prosecuted under the standards of our laws.
That would put an end to it.

It seems you like the idea of child labor as long as the goods are cheap.
03-26-2011, 05:44 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
Mike

A country can apply some of its laws overseas such as both of our countries have done so with the sex tourism business, one can be convicted in North America of a sex crime committed in Asia even if it was not a crime there but only here. I think there are laws on the books that require corporations to obey our laws in foreign countries unless the laws there are tougher.
True enough, but you could not convict, in an American court, a Bangledeshi in Bangledesh of sexual abuse of a minor IN Bangledesh even if he was an employee of an American or Canadian firm. (note: I do not know what the sex crime laws are in Bangledesh... just an example because that is a country often mentioned as a common destination in the sex trade of minors)


QuoteOriginally posted by shooz Quote
How about if an American manufacturer breaks child labor laws by moving operations to another country to skirt them, the CEOs are prosecuted under the standards of our laws.
That would put an end to it.

It seems you like the idea of child labor as long as the goods are cheap.
I do not like the idea of child labor in the least so stop trying to put words in my mouth.

All I am saying is that you cannot necessarily apply the laws in one country to corporations/entities or even individuals acting in another. Some countries, may well impose their laws on their own citizens even when they are acting outside of their own borders, but no country has legal jurisdiction over the citizens of another country within that country’s borders. Your idea that just saying corporations must act responsibly and ethically is naive. If what they are doing is considered criminal then they are criminals. And criminals, whether they are individuals or organizations, don't stop doing crimes just because you say they should or because you write laws and exact punishments. Strangely enough the only way to do away with crime is to do away with laws, and in a civil society that is neither sensible or practical. In a way, criminals are the price we pay for wishing to live in a world governed by law.

So, in order to achieve the world proposed in your manifesto you would have to change basic human nature in EVERYONE.

As I said in my first reply to this thread, while your proposals are laudable they are simply unrealistic and unachievable. Nothing wrong with trying of course, but I am cynic enough to feel that we are not going to change 10s of thousands of years of human conditioning any time soon.

Last edited by MRRiley; 03-26-2011 at 05:53 PM.
03-26-2011, 05:54 PM   #14
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QuoteOriginally posted by MRRiley Quote
Local labor laws in Bangledesh may allow child labor and work conditions which would be considered unsafe in other countries.
This is where you seem to say it's OK. I stress seem.

Corporations in US protectorates can skirt all kinds of labor laws.
IE: Saipan or Puerto Rico
Should we start there?
03-26-2011, 05:59 PM   #15
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You're the one that said "globally" so I picked a particularly tough and unsavory nut (Bangledesh) to crack... Now it seems you want to scale your proposal back to someplace under a modicum of U.S. jurisdiction... Thats not the same as "Force corporations to apply local labor laws in their global operations."
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