[stevewig]

Nutcase Pastor aside where were all you guys when "they" burned Bibles or the American flag? Where was your outrage at that? It's OK to burn American/Christian flags/Bibles but not the Koran? It's OK to kill Christians just because they are Christian? As John Stossel would say "Give me a break".

Should Jones have burned the Koran? No. No book of worship should be burned.

John you just don't get it do you?

The Pastor did a purposeful act that he knew would enrage this group of believers. That is why he did it. It was also completely predictable that deaths would ensue because whether you like it or not that is how these believers react to this insult.

In this country we (in general) do not react that way when bibles and flags are burnt even though there may be some kooks who would like to.

Because of the predictability of the outcome Pastor Jones did this stupid act, death resulted and YOU do not understand our anger at this man?

What on earth is your point?

Do you really think that the whole matter should be ignored and nothing should be said?

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Last edited by stevewig; 04-04-2011 at 07:09 AM.

[Wheatfield]

John you just don't get it do you?

The Pastor did a purposeful act that he knew would enrage this group of believers. That is why he did it. It was also completely predictable that deaths would ensue because whether you like it or not that is how these believers react to this insult.

In this country we (in general) do not react that way when bibles and flags are burnt even though there may be some kooks who would like to.

Because of the predictability of the outcome Pastor Jones did this stupid act, death resulted and YOU do not understand our anger at this man?

What on earth is your point?

Do you really think that the whole matter should be ignored and nothing should be said?

I think most right winged types (John is definitely one) don't really believe in cause and effect.
IE, just because there was a provocation on the part of pastor idiot, there is no straight line that can be drawn from that to the killings.

[jogiba]

After dominating world headlines last September with the proposed stunt—which surfed off the protests surrounding the Park51 Islamic center two blocks from ground zero on the ninth anniversary of the 9/11 attacks—Jones had promised, “We will definitely not burn the Koran… Not today, not ever."

But carnival-barker hate-mongers love attention, and Terry Jones reversed his pledge when he started to feel like maybe the world wasn’t hanging on every pronouncement that emanated from his ironically named “Dove World Outreach” church. And so, on March 20, he held a mock trial for the Koran in front of 30 parishioners.

This kangaroo court had a "prosecutor" making the case for condemning Islam, squaring off with a "defense" "lawyer"—one of many sentences on the table was book-burning. The U.S. media wisely ignored the idiotic inflammatory spectacle. But there was a videocamera present, and Jones uploaded his footage to the Internet for the world to see.

As of Friday, only 1,500 people had watched it, but it was already becoming big news in Afghanistan and the Islamic world. The State Department took care to release a statement condemning the book-burning last week, but after prominent Afghan imams made it a centerpiece of their Friday services, the mob was darkly inspired and took to the streets, encouraged by the Taliban.

This explosion of violence comes at a time when the U.S. is at war in three Muslim countries and our enemies—terrorists and dictators alike—try to invoke Islam as a way of painting Americans as infidels. Terry Jones perfectly plays into their hands. The incident will be used by our enemies as a way to try and redirect the Arab Spring uprisings’ anger toward the U.S.
Koran Burning Pastor: How His Stunt Could Harm the U.S. - The Daily Beast

[JohnInIndy]

What you are missing, at least from where I sit, is that it's just batsh!t stupid to deliberately provoke a group that needs almost no provocation.
No, it's not ok to burn anything that another group holds sacred, but it's just plain dumb to go out of your way to provoke Muslim extremists, as their solution to any slight is to take it out on whatever westerner happens to be handy.
And, from what little I know about Christianity, it's not a very Christian thing to do, either.

I get it Wheatfield. We are suppose to cower down to any group that is violent just because they are violent. Is that how you want the world to be? Where radical muslims control what you do by violence?

Interesting thing. So if my wife (no, I am not married) is sleeping with a guy who is not me and I kill her it's really the other guy's fault and he should go to jail for murder since it's his fault I killed her?

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Last edited by JohnInIndy; 04-04-2011 at 09:09 AM.

[stevewig]

No John, we're supposed to burn Holy Books so that people in a distant countries can be killed by angry mobs.

During this period of mob violence we can sit at home in comfort and watch it on TV with internal pleasure, knowing that we caused it.

The last part of your question really does underline your complete lack of understanding of the situation. Almost like the morality of a small child.

[redrockcoulee]

I get it Wheatfield. We are suppose to cower down to any group that is violent.

NO we should go out of our way to provoke any group that tends to be violent, be they extemist Muslims, anti-abortionists, white supremests etc. Flaming the hatred is good right. The end result is we should strive for riots, assisinations and wars. Death is good NOT

I have been listening to some podcasts of interviews with Pakistani academics and writers who all say that even a decade ago the extremists had little clout in that country and there were schools for girls in the tribal areas. Now that has all changed and the more we do things that appear anti-Muslim the easier it is for fundamentalists and fanatics to not only flare up anger but to also recruit. It has been shown many times that it does not take much to really rile up people and that is not exclusivly Muslims, take Rwanda,the former Yugoslavia, the US south in the past, Germany in the 20s, etc.

There is a huge diffence between cowering and delibertly insulting and threatening a group. Stating that their religion is evil, wrong, stupid and some have even suggested converting them to Christainity plus often wrongly portraying them (ie stating that Iraq did not let women go to school when that is clearing false).

Some Christians seem insensed with the statements of Dawkins or Hichens, image if your country was occupied by Muslims and they were'always' saying how corrupt, wrong and evil your religion was. Do you not think that there would be some leaders advocating violence. Taunting people is never the right thing to do and as the fundamentalists seem to get even more powerful in some of those countries why should we not make the effort to understand which countries that is and which countries it is not happening in and to furthermore not go out of our way to both spread falsehoods about them or to greatly insult them.

Would one go out of the way to erect an abortion clinic right next door to extreme anti abortionists and to be constantly telling them how good it is? The fundamental Christians in your country seem to have a disapportional about of power but still not as much as they wish. Think of ways to appear to threatend their relgion, beliefs and values and see how they react, perhaps not like the middle east as they already have some power and violence is normally the act of those who either have little power or feel that they do not.

There are more options than cower or harrass. Most of us are far from those two extreme end points and of course putting up the opposite extreme has been a justification for the first extreme in the past and just as wrong now as ever. Unless you live in a totally binomal world in which every point has only two options or choices

[Parallax]

I get it Wheatfield. We are suppose to cower down to any group that is violent just because they are violent. Is that how you want the world to be? Where radical muslims control what you do by violence?

Interesting thing. .............

I find it interesting that you apparently don't see a difference between not cowering from a bully, and poking him with a stick just to see what he'll do.

[Ratmagiclady]

Nutcase Pastor aside where were all you guys when "they" burned Bibles or the American flag?

I've not actually *seen* anyone burn a Bible, never mind make a national media stunt of it. I've heard campaigns of mass-deception claiming people do or *want* to, though.

(Well, I admit that as a young gutterpunk I tried rolling some Bugler in one of those little Gideon jobbies when I was out of papers, , but they *did* throw the thing into my house rather rudely.)

Where was your outrage at that? It's OK to burn American/Christian flags/Bibles but not the Koran?

Can you tell the difference at this point? No one's *ever* burned an American flag in my sight, at least without me having a word about it, or at least turning my back, but I have to admit those were times the flag was being used as an emblem of those who *couldn't* tell the difference, and I had a lot more outrage for *those using it so jingoistically* at the time.

As for 'The Christian Flag' (ie, the Dominionist one,) it's *nothing...* It's a mockery of both our nation and the religion many, including some of my family, still, hold dear. If I took one in one of those battles these types like to fantasize about I either wouldn't trouble to pick it up, or give it to a Christian for *them* to decide the fate of.

'Give to Caesar,' eh?


As for 'burning Bibles,' *shrug.*

People keep *accusing* other Americans of wanting to do that, apparently as an excuse to turn those books into chains, which would be the worse thing to do with them. But I ain't seen it.

It's OK to kill Christians just because they are Christian? As John Stossel would say "Give me a break".

Somehow, I haven't seen that in Florida, or heard a word of it apart from those inciting violence against non-Christians in America *claiming* someone wants to.

However, Christianists with way too much power advocate the stripping of 'unalienable human rights' that they simultaneously (and fasely) claim come from *their* God,* thus making them alienable, and among those rights just so happen to be life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, all of which they seem to feel oppressed if they can't deprive non-Christians of, or 'the wrong kind' of Christians of, at will...

So I'm thinking it's just fascism and stoking paranoia among majorities.

Should Jones have burned the Koran? No. No book of worship should be burned.

No book should be burned, period. (Admittedly, the world wouldn't miss a few Harlequin romances, but where do you draw the line?)


And ain't that the sticky point. 'Book of worship.' Now you gotta define 'worship.' Then you gotta define... a lot of other things.

Certainly, there's even a difference between 'burning a book' and 'having a book-burning.' Lest we forget.

And there's an even further difference between 'having a book-burning' and 'calling in the international press to some other end, which involves 'Inciting people you know are angry so they'll kill someone (invariably, almost, other Muslims) so that you can say, 'See how violent they are, but look how no one is so outraged as I say they should be when (I claim) they do this to me, which I claim they do even if they apparently don't, so that I can say we should make war on them, just as they did when it was done to them, but it was wrong when *they* did it, just cause some hate-preacher set out to *outrage* them.'

Then you dare say you want that for *us?*

If your Jesus had a 'message,' ...it ain't that hard. Even, if not *especially* for a Pagan. It's not. That. Hard. It's the rest of that worldview that makes it complicated. And your wars. And ambitions.

What your pastor did there was all *about* outrage, and *that* ain't hard to suss out, *either.*

Pointing a fearmongering finger and accusing others of wanting to do *exactly what you're defending doing your own self,* doesn't change that.

As for your own sacred things, don't worry bout me, if iI didn't find it as a weapon, like about anything else, I just get it to someone who'd like it. I've actually got a couple of neat things for Catholics around here: one's for a low-rent crafter of things with a little imagination, another's for a bibliophile with Marian devotions if I can find it again. (Really pretty antique bookmark that came in an old book I rescued: it might take some finding since, as part of the book's history I keep it there, but it'd be better if it went to someone who could really appreciate it: not a big enough deal to drop it by a church or something, just kinda nice.


Point for you, though, John, is *who taught you this was a freakin' war?*

"Where's the outrage" you say, when someone under your Cross *commits* a *deliberate outrage,* .....pointing fingers.

Then claiming to be *better* than everyone else.

You want 'Christian flags' and haven't even figured out *manners,* that's what it looks like to me.

It's your freakin book-burning: Hec of a time to get indignant about the possibility of someone else doing it.

[Wheatfield]

I get it Wheatfield. We are suppose to cower down to any group that is violent just because they are violent. Is that how you want the world to be? Where radical muslims control what you do by violence?

<red herring>
Interesting thing. So if my wife (no, I am not married) is sleeping with a guy who is not me and I kill her it's really the other guy's fault and he should go to jail for murder since it's his fault I killed her?
</red herring>.

Instead of posting something that, while true, would net me a citation for insulting another member's intelligence, I'll just call you out on your post and ask you to explain precisely where I said anything like what you are putting on me.
Please use quotes and exact citations, including the thread that I said it in.

And, when you fail at that, perhaps you can tell us what you think is to be gained by deliberately provoking extremist Muslims with an act that is guaranteed to anger them, and an act that serves no purpose whatsoever?

[Wheatfield]

I find it interesting that you apparently don't see a difference between not cowering from a bully, and poking him with a stick just to see what he'll do.

I suspect John is the type who would rap a stick on the fence that pens in a somewhat aggressive dog until it was well and truly worked up, and then when he opened the gate would wonder why he got bit.

[stevewig]

Or throws a lighted match into a pool of gasoline and then blames the gasoline!

[Wheatfield]

Or throws a match into a pool of gasoline and then blames the gasoline!

I do wonder when respecting the religious beliefs of others turned into cowering in ones home.

I don't recall ever reading about George Washington saying "It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible, and an utter contempt for Muslim beliefs", but I do admit that my knowledge of American history is somewhat lacking, so I suppose it's possible Mr. Washington said something like this.
Of course then, the Republicans would have to search back even farther in history to find one who said something intelligent enough to quote from....

[GeneV]

What you are missing, at least from where I sit, is that it's just batsh!t stupid to deliberately provoke a group that needs almost no provocation.
No, it's not ok to burn anything that another group holds sacred, but it's just plain dumb to go out of your way to provoke Muslim extremists, as their solution to any slight is to take it out on whatever westerner happens to be handy.
And, from what little I know about Christianity, it's not a very Christian thing to do, either.

Not to mention the fact that in most of these countries which have been in the news lately, the vast majority of the Muslim inhabitants have almost as little use for their extreme factions as we have for those people. Al Qaeda has not be hitting home runs with these inhabitants in the recent unrest. However, a few holy book burnings could change that.

[Wheatfield]

Not to mention the fact that in most of these countries which have been in the news lately, the vast majority of the Muslim inhabitants have almost as little use for their extreme factions as we have for those people. Al Qaeda has not be hitting home runs with these inhabitants in the recent unrest. However, a few holy book burnings could change that.

I wonder how long Canada would be considered America's friend if we all took to posting youtube videos of us crapping on and then burning the Stars and Stripes.

[redrockcoulee]

I do wonder when respecting the religious beliefs of others turned into cowering in ones home.

I don't recall ever reading about George Washington saying "It is impossible to rightly govern a nation without God and the Bible, and an utter contempt for Muslim beliefs", but I do admit that my knowledge of American history is somewhat lacking, so I suppose it's possible Mr. Washington said something like this.
Of course then, the Republicans would have to search back even farther in history to find one who said something intelligent enough to quote from....

As some web sites show evidence of George Washington saying the first part of that quote it would be very easy to also add the last part.

We do however seem to be living in an age of demonizing everyone of a different belief system, political view or ethnical origin, labelling people of the opposite of us with the most distasteful one we think we can get away.