[redrockcoulee]

Perhaps it is time for the Muslim world to realize that none of them have any rights to comment on the western world whereas the western world has the rights to comment on their laws or customs. What Jones did was a deliberate act to outrage the Muslim world. Karzai could have kept quite and shown the Afghan people that he is indeed an American puppet. There were others who stepped in to stir the pot. From the reports I read there were other protests that did not turn violent and that this one did due to some troublemakers on the scene. There sure are the main culperts in this act and blame the Afghan leaderhsip for not being more like the western world but still Jones acted in a way calculated to cause outrage and harm to others. Although he did nothing illegal in his own country what he did was wrong and others of course paid the price.

John; sometimes it is not a simple of matter of choicing one person to blame as often all parties are in some part at fault.

[Ash]

The Egyptian people have in generally been a *great* example of late of how to deal with it when these religions' radicals try to set them against each other, really.

It's a land that's been through a lot since they burned Alexandria, seems they have learned it's better to have each other's backs than fall to fear and terror of each other, this is really how you do it.

The world outside Christian Egypt believes this to be the case. Muslim Egypt even asserts this to show how good they've been handling the seemingly difficult pluralistic society they have.

Speak to some Christian Egyptians living in the West (in fact Christians from any predominantly muslim Arab nation) and they'll tell you a very different story. Between violent clashes that find their way to international news channels, there is a systematic covert form of oppression that prevents these Christians from accessing jobs in any form of leadership, both in the civil and political sector.

This is but one form of suppression Christians have to endure to live in their own country. No wonder nearly 50% of Christian Arabs in the world live outside their country of origin, not due to any humanitarian crisis. The ones I know, mostly in professional occupations, moved to Australia to escape the oppression and the opportunity to raise their children in a free society without fear of persecution.

This type of generalization is exactly why I started this thread. Extremist, radical Muslims are not typically tolerated in these countries. There is a core element that is supported by countries that are not sympathetic to the west, benefit from this extremism, and use it for political and not religious reasons. Our actions have done a lot over the past decade to convert moderates into extremists and help our enemies. The statement above makes us the enemy for 25% of the world.

You have to remember that there are sizable Christian populations in these countries and they were tolerated until recently, but now they are under attack too. Why have things changed so radically the past 20 years to move us to such extremism?

These extremist whackjobs make life unbearable for the locals and it shouldn't be hard for us to show some sympathy and get their help in return. Instead, we communicate to them that we are untrustworthy and the enemy. If the goal is to bring the fight to ourselves, on our soil, then we are doing a very good job.

Unfortunately the alternative stance of dialogue gives the impression that the leaders want to 'do business' with terrorists - not a good look. Diplomacy is always best, but there does come a point when diplomacy fails, and it's usually due to a set of differences at a fundamental level. But in Arab-West/UN-Arab League negotiations there have been glimmers of hope, which aren't accepted by everyone in the Arab world, so acts of sabotage such as the murder of Yitzak Rabin mar the peace efforts that could have actually made a difference in the Arab world.

There will always be the muslim Arab who disagrees with the existence of the nation of Israel and therefore the Western countries that come to their aid during times of conflict. And it's hard to be level-headed when stances such as this exist: Muslim website targets for death Copts in Egypt, Europe and North America - Jihad Watch

Palestinian Christians are trying to get along but it's not easy for them: Home | A Moment of Truth | ???? ???

[ihasa]

Palestinian Christians are trying to get along but it's not easy for them: Home | A Moment of Truth | ???? ???

Indeed but it isn't their Muslim brothers who are making things hard for them! Its the Israeli Jews, backed by American Christians!

When is the West going to come to the aid of the Palestinians who are enduring the brutal dicatatorship of an occupying force?

[Wheatfield]

Nobody seems to have any problem coming down hard on that crowd so why does everybody pussyfoot when it comes to radical muslims?

I didn't realize that my country's efforts in Khandahar province which has cost us 155 soldier's lives so far (including six killed by American incompetence) was pussyfooting around.
Perhaps next time the USA decides to bugger up someone's country we should just stay home and let you fix your own screw ups.

[seacapt]

I didn't realize that my country's efforts in Khandahar province which has cost us 155 soldier's lives so far (including six killed by American incompetence) was pussyfooting around.
Perhaps next time the USA decides to bugger up someone's country we should just stay home and let you fix your own screw ups.

Wheat, I think you should realize that I don't take lightly the efforts and sacrafices of any allied soldier.
I was reffering to those who sit at home and and seem to preach a doctrine that sympathizes with certain terrorists because they are Muslim while quickly condemming terrorists of other ideologies.

[Wheatfield]

Wheat, I think you should realize that I don't take lightly the efforts and sacrafices of any allied soldier.
I was reffering to those who sit at home and and seem to preach a doctrine that sympathizes with certain terrorists because they are Muslim while quickly condemming terrorists of other ideologies.

Fair enough, but realize that advocating not provoking extremist Muslims and questioning the intelligence of those who do is not the same as sympathizing with terrorists.

[stevewig]

Wheat, I think you should realize that I don't take lightly the efforts and sacrafices of any allied soldier.
I was reffering to those who sit at home and and seem to preach a doctrine that sympathizes with certain terrorists because they are Muslim while quickly condemming terrorists of other ideologies.

Seacapt, I always respect your opinions in this forum even when and if I disagree with them.

However, I don’t believe that anybody in this current topic has been sitting at home preaching sympathy for Muslim terrorists.

The whole point, at least for myself (and I do believe for most other people too), is that we have all become very familiar with Muslim extremism in particular and the enormous hold that the Muslim religion has on all who believe in that faith in general.

I would expect this religious hold to be very similar for most religions, when the lifestyle and day to day existence of most of the population is predicated on this faith. We all know that in the past the Christian religion had a similar hold on its adherents when the majority of the population was very poor. Christianity, at least in the past, has (as we all know) also been the breeding ground of cruelty and extremism.

In my opinion the only way to break the bonds of religious extremism is through democracy and the resulting material enrichment of the general population. In the meantime they continue to live a life that is dominated by their religion and I am not wise enough to know whether this is or is not the “correct way” for a human to live his life. I know its not the way I chose to live.

So to get to the point of this argument:

We all should know by now, in the current historic circumstance, that when you insult the Muslim faith you will be subject to the hatred of its adherents and people will die. That cannot be disputed, it is a fact and that is all there is to it. It doesn’t matter whether you think it is right or wrong it is just simply a FACT. We can spend a week on this topic and at the end of the week the answer will be the same. It isn’t even a matter of cowardice or spinelessness its just a fact.

If Jones didn’t know that then he should have done.

At least now he does.

He took a course of action that achieved nothing except for causing the riots and the deaths that did happen and that otherwise would not have happened.

There is, as in all other political issues, several ways to “spin” Pastor Jones action but nobody can dodge the fact that he caused the result. The perpetrators of this action we will all agree are criminals – but the crime was caused by Pastor Jones.

[seacapt]

Jones is a self serving showboating sociopath looking to make a quick buck and a reputation but if that was a crime there would be lots of used car salesmen in jail.
That said indulge me a moment here and lets go back to Wheatfield's dog analogy.
When some dip pschyt antagonizes a dog and gets bit I can actually sympathize with the dog and it's owner. Now lets talk about a dog that is roaming loose and randomly attacks anybody or anything that pisses it off. It is a real danger to all it may come in contact with. It is the resonsibillity of anyone who sees this vicious annimal to stop it by any means available.
Where is the outrage ? Are people more concerned with Jones or the rabid animals who gleefully behead innocents? Were we more concerned about tracking down and stopping the individuals who made death threats against the writers of cartoons or censorring the cartoons? How about the dentist who litterally gave his life to try helping Afgahni kids? Have you seen a picture of that group ? Yeah those looked like "spys" and "opperatives". They were a group of kind folks trying to help and got murdered for it.
The "mainstream Muslims "claim to want peaceful coexistance but do they police their own , do they even try to stop the mad dogs? Weren't these the ones dancing in the streets when the Towers came down? We were supposed to accept that and understand their feelings? I don't get it.
Prisoners of war were being transported during Desert Storm , they tried to gnaw through the hydraulic hoses and wires on the plane carrying them. People were outraged that bags were put over their heads to stop them. I'd be somewhat torn were I the loadmaster on that plane . The term jettizon dangerous cargo to protect the aircraft and it's crew comes to mind. That would warrant outrage for sure but outrage toward the crew for restraining the POWs and hooding them (kinda like muzzling a vicious dog) c'mon.
Sorry guys but I sometimes just feel as if both sympathies and outrage are misplaced when it comes to atrocities committed in the name of Allah.
Lastly I have to ask what message does this send to terrorists , murderers and those who complacently harbor them?

[Jodokast96]

Lastly I have to ask what message does this send to terrorists , murderers and those who complacently harbor them?

Keep doing what we're doing and we'll win?

[GeneV]

Jones is a self serving showboating sociopath looking to make a quick buck and a reputation but if that was a crime there would be lots of used car salesmen in jail.
That said indulge me a moment here and lets go back to Wheatfield's dog analogy.

* * *

Sorry guys but I sometimes just feel as if both sympathies and outrage are misplaced when it comes to atrocities committed in the name of Allah.
Lastly I have to ask what message does this send to terrorists , murderers and those who complacently harbor them?

Ken, the reason is that it has nothing whatsoever to do with sympathy, but responsibility. I feel far less responsibility for what people of another culture may do or not do. The propensities of that side were formed without input from me and mine. There is not a whole lot we can do about it, whether we like it or not.

I do feel some responsibility for what a fellow American does on American soil in the name of the majority religion in America. There may or may not be any legal remedy here, but it seems there should be.

[SteveM]

Once again this thread like so many in the P&R section goes around and around saying the same things.

Seacapt - am I correct in assuming from your response that you don't care to encourage the locals to be on our side and to put them in a position to deal with this. If you put yourself in the shoes of someone there and some idiot was running around trying to chop off the heads of your kids like those nutcases in Afghanistan, you might not be so inclined to speak up. So how do you propose we get their support or do you simply not want it and are happy to see things escalate and the area become even more destabilized?

Jodokast96 - I hope not. The extremists can get what they deserve, but turning against the moderates is not in our best interest and we won't necessarily win.

Finally, the US is not in this alone in this and it has to act as part of the force that is there. The actions by this pastor are way over the line criminally and this guy would be behind bars in many countries including Canada. Because of internal US law (or more specifically one that is not enforced) in the US, Canadian boys could die. I would expect this aspect to work against your national interest. In one single act, you are pissing off people that could be your friends and help you in Afghanistan and at the same time you work against your allies.

The extremists must be very happy.

[stevewig]

Once again this thread like so many in the P&R section goes around and around saying the same things. .........

You are correct it is going around and around saying the same things!

I think because we have two schools in the discussion.

One school recognizes that Arab extremism and Muslim extremism exists, does by no means accept or condone this extremism - but does acknowledge that that is a big discussion all by itself. Within this backdrop we have Mr. Jones and his extremism and sympathizers. We want to discuss his current action and possible future actions - period.

The other school who may or may not sympathize with Jones actions prefers to concentrate on the Arab/Muslim extremism.

Thus I bow out of this thread!

[Ira]

The actions by this pastor are way over the line criminally and this guy would be behind bars in many countries including Canada.

But this burning happened in the U.S., correct? Where it's not a crime?

As opposed to murdering innocent people, which seems to NOT be a crime there?

Some of you guys have some sense of proportion.

If this Koran burning was an "incitement" that justifies murder, the U.S. is justified to bomb every village in the world where a U.S. flag was torched to ashes:

At least the American flag represents something real. The Koran represent fantasyland.

[Ratmagiclady]

But this burning happened in the U.S., correct? Where it's not a crime?

As opposed to murdering innocent people, which seems to NOT be a crime there?

Some of you guys have some sense of proportion.

If this Koran burning was an "incitement" that justifies murder, the U.S. is justified to bomb every village in the world where a U.S. flag was torched to ashes:

At least the American flag represents something real. The Koran represent fantasyland.

And around it goes.

Just because we *can* do a thing, Ira, doesn't mean it's right to *do* that thing.

We're *supposedly* better than those who burn our flag, by these standards. The US laws always err on the side of free speech, even when someone's deliberately going for an outrage (Well, as long as they're Christian preachers)
...to incite hatred here and yes, darn well knowing the reactions it provokes. Just cause some feel that that's only all the more reason to hate and fear *more,* doesn't mean the man didn't know exactly what he was doing for what audience and what the results would be.



(And, Ash, just cause yes, in Egypt, there are those hatreds and bigotries between religions that exhibit it nearly everywhere they are, doesn't mean the people of Cairo, at least, haven't shown *exemplary* ways of handling it. Of course, there wouldn't be anything to *handle* if these hatreds didn't *exist.* Nor does that mean that this pastor isn't doing the opposite of helpful. .)


As for the whole 'Christians are better than Muslims, so Muslims are evil' both works fine from the other point of view, if *they* want to hate others, and, frankly, neither of these religions are friendly to anyone *else* when they get too much control.

From my point of view, when it comes to either of you guys' radicals, it's really just kind of academic to me which brand of *bat* someone's swinging at me. If we're not free and pluralist *here* cause you like to compare yourselves to the worst in each other, and can't control your freaking behavior, never mind anyone *else's,* it really just doesn't matter 'Who's worse.'

You've *both* got a history of *plenty bad enough* every time you take that kind of power.

[GeneV]

Or to see it from another angle, what is the positive outcome expected from burning a book that is holy scripture to a billion or so people? Weigh that against the negative, and you have the definition of an unwise act.

To use the bad dog analogy, perhaps the bad dog truly needs to be put down or changed. Nevertheless, senselessly prodding the dog with no positive outcome expected is stupid and saying so is not in any way justifying the bite.