[mtroute]

Exactly. If you look at that average diet, the sugar guy will see too much sugar, The fat researcher sees all the fat. The salt scientist sees (shockingly) all the salt. The exercise guru sees a bunch of couch potatoes, etc. No studies can totally eliminate the effect of the other factors because the average diet has all of the factors.

I am not defending HFCS or Sugar, my argument is simple. It's not what people eat in and of itself, its the fact that we eat so much of it...Calories make you fat, being fat makes you sick, not HFCS...

[DreTAX]

Everything in moderation, the only problem is many people forget/don't know what moderation is. I'm going to eat now, i'm starving!

[Ash]

So, you're wrong or my physician is wrong. He says almost all the bad cholesterol in your system is formed in your liver, and that tricking your liver in to producing less, is the key to lowering your cholesterol count. I bet you're going to say he's wrong, and he's saying you're wrong. What's a person to do? So when was your last conference on this topic? He just got back from his.

I'm not going to say your physician is wrong (it'd be an indictment on the profession for physicians to do that to each other), and not all the summarised tidbits you've presented are incorrect either, but it is not the complete story (Saturated fat, carbohydrate, and cardiovascular di... [Am J Clin Nutr. 2010] - PubMed result). The CARDIA study (look it up if you're interested) found a relationship between sucrose intake and low HDL levels, which is undesirable but no relationship was found in total and LDL cholesterol levels. Many other studies point toward a more holistic approach to cardiovascular disease prevention, e.g. Dietary quality predicts adult weight gain: findin... [Obesity (Silver Spring). 2006] - PubMed result and Diet and exercise in the management of hyperlipide... [Am Fam Physician. 2010] - PubMed result).

Dietary sugar, of course, is important in the pathogenesis of Type 2 diabetes, which is itself an independent risk factor of cardiovascular disease (and related to cholesterol levels). So in a round about way, then yes, dietary sugar can affect cholesterol, but is far from being the factor that will make a difference to the prevalence of high cholesterol levels (Atherosclerosis - Sugar intake and CHD).

Cholesterol lowering agents (HMG-CoA reductase inhibitors specifically) are the ones used to downregulate the liver's endogenous production of cholesterol, but it is not the only agent that effectively lowers total cholesterol, indicating a multi-faceted process. Sugars and carbohydrates may increase blood triglycerides (Carbohydrate-induced hypertriacylglycerolemia: historical perspective and review of biological mechanisms1) but not cholesterol as an independent factor (Dietary carbohydrates and cardiovascular disease r... [J Am Coll Nutr. 2009] - PubMed result).

People have been successful lowering total and LDL cholesterol with diet alone for a long time now, by lowering total and saturated fat intake - it may be modest (from something like 5.5mM to 4.5 or 5.0mM), but it is a significant decrease. Current trends are to prescribe cholesterol-lowering agents early since target cholesterols are quite low, particularly for those with cardiac risk factors.

Old research with sound repeatable Level I data is not automatically superceded by new findings from conflicting lower level studies. Reports such as this: High-Sugar Diet Linked to Cholesterol hardly provide any level of evidence to be of any benefit at a population level. Show me the epidemiological evidence with the power of this study to dispel its findings and I'll be quickly amenable to your viewpoint.

But back on topic, high level studies failed to implicate fructose in the development of metabolic anomalies when consumed as part of a normal diet:

Sugar and Cardiovascular Disease: A Statement for Healthcare Professionals From the Committee on Nutrition of the Council on Nutrition, Physical Activity, and Metabolism of the American Heart Association -- Howard and Wylie-Rosett 106 (4): 523 -- Cir
"In feeding studies, fructose has had inconsistent effects on plasma triglyceride levels, which may be related to factors such as the amount of fructose consumed; energy balance; and baseline triglyceride, insulin, and glucose levels. The postprandial rise in triglyceride levels after fat intake may be augmented with the addition of fructose to a test meal. However, a study in individuals with type 2 diabetes showed a lack of significant variation in glucose, lipid, and insulin responses to three 28-day isocaloric feeding periods when 20% of calories were either fructose, sucrose, or starch. For most individuals, consuming fructose either free or in the form of sucrose has neither beneficial nor adverse effects."

I think I've said enough on this topic today...

[wlachan]

Well, haven't people known too much of anything will be toxic?

[jolepp]

Well, haven't people known too much of anything will be toxic?

Heh, I suppose e.g. having too much water at once is harmful (and hence kind of toxic). I used to be under the impression that sugar's main problem would be the extra, "empty" calories. The article suggests that there might be more than that with the typical western diet. In particular, high fructose intake (as such in HFCS, or from sucrose) might have more harmful effects than just providing extra calories. The jury would still seem to be out, though

One has to wonder whether fats having gotten most attention might be due marketing of new, lucrative anti-cholesterol drugs.

[Vylen]

Everything in moderation, the only problem is many people forget/don't know what moderation is. I'm going to eat now, i'm starving!

Which is fine... but it seems that everything has sugar in it.

But with the increase in awareness of the "evils" of sugar, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of companies start bringing out "Sugar free" or "Fructose free" food ranges.

[RichardS]

I have no medical qualifications, but I'm reasonably intelligent and I'm capable of understanding quite a lot of things. In the early 1980s I managed projects to develop a few computer systems for the federal dept of health. I participated in discussions between the medical people with multiple post grad degrees each (one guy had an MD and three PhDs). Some of the info stuck. I stopped adding salt to anything

Apart from that, I was diagnosed with type 2 diabetes in 2000, so blood glucose and what affects it is important to me. Considerations of GI and GL are involved in everything I eat, as are fat levels (and types) and salt content. I've done a lot of research.

I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV.

From that background, loving food, and having lived, worked and visited a few countries (Pakistan, England, India, Egypt, Germany, Belgium, Malaysia, Scotland, France, Holland, Italy, Spain, Phillipines, USA, Canada, Australia, HK) and eaten their food, I have a comment.

American food is unbelievebly sweet.

Richard.

[Ash]

There are a lot of sugar free food options around - this is good to have since many people have to be carbohydrate-conscious. Sugar in itself has 'empty' calories as fat would, but both macronutrients are essential for life.

Complicating healthy diet and lifestyle advice beyond establishing a balanced diet with more fruits and vegetables, and less refined foods is reducing yields in positive epidemiological changes.

[DreTAX]

Which is fine... but it seems that everything has sugar in it.

But with the increase in awareness of the "evils" of sugar, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of companies start bringing out "Sugar free" or "Fructose free" food ranges.

Yes everything "fast" or "processed". We have to change our eating habits and taste away from the sweet and the salty, which is usaually mixed with the fats. My catch cry to the kids when they are hungry - aka bored - is "have an apple", a raw carrot, celery, some nuts etc, there's plenty to choose from you just have to look in different isles in the supermarket.

[Ratmagiclady]

Heh, I suppose e.g. having too much water at once is harmful (and hence kind of toxic). I used to be under the impression that sugar's main problem would be the extra, "empty" calories. The article suggests that there might be more than that with the typical western diet. In particular, high fructose intake (as such in HFCS, or from sucrose) might have more harmful effects than just providing extra calories. The jury would still seem to be out, though

One has to wonder whether fats having gotten most attention might be due marketing of new, lucrative anti-cholesterol drugs.

Well, my sweetie explained this bit to me, she really snorts at the misleading 'corn sugar' commercials: the problem with too much high-fructose corn syrup actually isn't about anything in it being poison or anything, it's actually cause there's something missing from it that affects how the body metabolizes it.

Don't have much of a sweet tooth, myself, anyway, (Or, really, much of an appetite, in general: if I ate more *of* it, I doubt my diet would be all that healthy, I'd *really* have to make more of it fresh vegetables, but less quantity does have its benefits. (my usual worry is remembering to eat *enough.* )

Definitely can't stand most artificial sweeteners, and most soda's just too cloyingly-sugar laden for me to like it most of the time: I don't know how people can even drink it so much, (But then again I like a Moxie once in a while if I can ever find it. )

[jogiba]

Just eat a plant based diet and don't worry about the stupid headlines about carbs are bad. Complex carbs in a plant based diet is not the same as eating simple carbs like most processed food on the shelves in supermarkets. Anyone who thinks a diet high in red meat is healthy will be in for a shock when their heart starts acting like the one in Dick Cheney's chest.

[jolepp]

Well, my sweetie explained this bit to me, she really snorts at the misleading 'corn sugar' commercials: the problem with too much high-fructose corn syrup actually isn't about anything in it being poison or anything, it's actually cause there's something missing from it that affects how the body metabolizes it.
...

Fructose, unlike glucose, is not directly useful to cells and needs processing by the liver. The idea (in the article) is that too much of fructose eventually throws the metabolism out of whack in general (and might cause wear and tear on the liver itself that manifests itself as fat deposits I would interpret ). Too much would be more than a clever primate roaming the savannah might get hold of .

(But then again I like a Moxie once in a while if I can ever find it. )

Hmm ... the local idea of "Moxie" seems to be something else than a soda.

[Ratmagiclady]

Fructose, unlike glucose, is not directly useful to cells and needs processing by the liver. The idea (in the article) is that too much of fructose eventually throws the metabolism out of whack in general (and might cause wear and tear on the liver itself that manifests itself as fat deposits I would interpret ). Too much would be more than a clever primate roaming the savannah might get hold of .

That's the thing about fats, salts, and sugars, particularly in combination: our instincts generally say 'Eat as much of this as possible,' cause 'Too much' isn't something we're evolved for.

Hmm ... the local idea of "Moxie" seems to be something else than a soda.

Heehee. Well, 'Moxie' in somewhat archaic slang is one of those abstract qualities that doesn't translate too well, It's kinda like somewhere between 'Spunk' 'Chutzpah' and 'Sisu.' But plucky. Plucky sisu, usually in a social sense, maybe.

[Ash]

Sugar, saturated fat and highly refined carbohydrates usually constitute those melt-in-your-mouth recipes that lots of people crave and over-indulge on.

You should have seen the public craze when Krispy Kreme donuts first came to Australia...
Some people travelled for hours just to get these donuts...

Now Krispy Kremes are everywhere here, and now people are burning fewer calories just to go out and get them.

[er1kksen]

Just eat a plant based diet and don't worry about the stupid headlines about carbs are bad. Complex carbs in a plant based diet is not the same as eating simple carbs like most processed food on the shelves in supermarkets. Anyone who thinks a diet high in red meat is healthy will be in for a shock when their heart starts acting like the one in Dick Cheney's chest.

Yes, drink the kool-aid. Now available in reduced-sugar varieties...

Some of us will avoid eating toxic cereal grains and easily oxidized plant oils, and we won't be surprised one bit when our hearts continue to beat just as strong and steady as Mr. Birdshot's shiny new mechanical ticker. "Plant-based" in the popular sense can be applied to some pretty darn unhealthy diets.

Here's a healthy diet that's plant-based. Animals with digestive systems specialized for the digestion of mass amounts of raw plant matter do so and convert it to highly bioavailable fat and protein for human consumption, supplemented with a bit of additional plant matter since we do utilize starches well and require vitamin C. Over the last few million years our guts shrank and our brains expanded for a reason. You know, the same reason we don't have multiple fermenting chambers or an enlarged colon.

Fructose? High fructose intake has very specific effects on the liver that have nothing to do with calories or glycemic index, not to mention the growing evidence for a relationship between fructose and a number of cancers. I don't pass up a banana or two after a hard workout, and I don't think it's going to hurt me, but it's gotta be said that the problems with fructose aren't as simple as just "people eat too much food."

I've been regularly eating as many as 4000 calories a day (though some days it's zero) and I'm at the best I've ever felt in a lifetime of good health. What you eat is more important than how much of it. If I ate 4000 calories a day of foods that stimulated a hormonal state that inclined my cells to hang on to fat stores and dropped my energy so I felt like sitting around all day and inflamed my joints and tissues to ensure that I would do so anyways, that 4000 calories would definitely hurt me.

But I don't, and it doesn't. My body just chugs along in health and vitality the way a body should when you feed it its proper fuel.

When I think of how many people I know who experience terrible health while adhering to the "eat a plant-based diet and avoid red meat" line it just ticks me off, y'know?