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04-29-2011, 07:12 AM   #151
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QuoteOriginally posted by causey Quote
Exactly. However, the intellectual Libertarians whose philosophy I sketchily addressed in my previous post have a principled commitment to non-violence. The Teabaggers, Palin, and Co., not so much. That's why it seems to me the new Conservatism, with its populism, demagogy, and mass energy, looks like an incipient Fascist movement more than a thorough Libertarian movement. (Actually I don't think a Libertarian mass movement is possible.)
A Libertarian mass movement is almost a contradiction in terms.

I think that many leftists also have a principled commitment to nonviolence. They also think that if they could only just convince people of the "truth," all would be well. Of course, those who eschew violence never assume power or get attention.

04-29-2011, 07:32 AM   #152
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
A Libertarian mass movement is almost a contradiction in terms.

I think that many leftists also have a principled commitment to nonviolence. They also think that if they could only just convince people of the "truth," all would be well. Of course, those who eschew violence never assume power or get attention.
What inclines people towards 'leftist' or 'right-ist' intuitions is their past experience, which they lived according to their motivational structure. One's motivational structure is 'ineffable'--dependent on countless contingent factors: family, social and cultural environment (and by "social-cultural" I also mean "economic"), intellectual occasions (the kind of persons that has played an important role in their lives)...

But decent people, regardless of their intuitions, simply can't resort to violence of action, and they tend to refrain from violence of language. Decent people can reasonably talk with one another thus helping one another overcome their own particular, necessarily limited, experience--at least to some extent. Someone has become himself only after overcoming his experiences, his parents (which he has in himself, as components of the 'ineffable' motivational structure), and everything that constitutes his personal self. Truth lies beyond what one personally believes or thinks. Truth lies in beyond the personal I. Someone becomes himself by sacrificing the eternally hungry personal self (Ego).

Ask yourselves: what kind of self does the discourse of Palin & Co. nourish?

Last edited by causey; 04-29-2011 at 07:55 AM.
04-29-2011, 08:07 AM   #153
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I've been reading Nicholson Baker's Human Smoke, which is a bit of a controversial book, I suppose... but it's really making me a lot more nervous about the patterns I'm seeing in today's American politics...
04-29-2011, 08:14 AM   #154
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QuoteOriginally posted by deadwolfbones Quote
I've been reading Nicholson Baker's Human Smoke, which is a bit of a controversial book, I suppose... but it's really making me a lot more nervous about the patterns I'm seeing in today's American politics...
Having not had the pleasure of reading this book, expand a little on your concerns......

04-29-2011, 08:17 AM   #155
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I believe I already stated that it manifests fascism.
A merger of corporation and state.
They do show evidence of objectivism as well. The party of NO refusing to share their candy or even considering it?
Narcissists the lot of them.
04-29-2011, 08:47 AM   #156
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QuoteOriginally posted by shooz Quote
I believe I already stated that it manifests fascism.
A merger of corporation and state.
I might say, not national-socialist fascism, but corporate fascism. The difference is who is calling the shots, and whose needs come first.
04-29-2011, 09:03 AM   #157
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It won't be the little people..........

04-29-2011, 09:04 AM - 1 Like   #158
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>Wow, I see you are another Rush Limpdick fan.
Wow, another sterling example of 'liberal civility'.

Let me rephrase that :
"Wow, is this the kind of 'civility' a conservative like me can expect from the liberal posters here?"

Last edited by Moe49; 12-25-2011 at 07:03 AM.
04-29-2011, 09:07 AM   #159
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That was quite a reach back and cherry picking to boot Moe49.
Any comment on the rest of the thread?
04-29-2011, 09:28 AM   #160
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QuoteOriginally posted by Moe49 Quote
>Wow, I see you are another Rush Limpdick fan.

Wow, another sterling example of 'liberal civility'.
Maybe you have something a little more intelligent to say than these one (OK, two) liner references to Rush Limpdick.

Maybe stretch yourself to, lets say, x lines of 20 words minimum?
04-29-2011, 09:30 AM   #161
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnInIndy Quote
Socialism: nothing more than the theory that the slave is always more virtuous than his master.

Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it.

One of the consequences of such notions as "entitlements" is that people who have contributed nothing to society feel that society owes them something, apparently just for being nice enough to grace us with their presence.

Socialism is simply Communism for people without the testosterone to man the barricades .
If making things up one can also say that capitalism is the right for business and businessmen to buy anything and anyone they want. What about socialism is the placing of any rule , regualtion or restriction on private enterprise.

You have not had a left of centre president since Carter or maybe even more so Johnson. Both of your parties are pro business and anti socialism but you detest any rules or taxes on businesses that do actually use resourcses of the common.

As far as only an intellectual would recognize any good in social justice that may be true as they might look at the health and safety of the country/community and look at the actual results of social programs. But for those who only listen to talking points or bank accounts and have no feelings towards anyone else to speak of then yes it is a failure.

If you think socialism is a what Obama is about you must also think that Canada, New Zealand, Sweden, Norway and Denmark are extremely socialist and in your view dismal failures. Good econonmies, good standards of living, safer to live in and longer lifespans are not bad results from failures. Not perfect and I am sure that you could find some things wrong in each of those countries but I think the last bank failure here was in the mid 1980s and that was a very small greedy bank that tried to bribe its way to greatness with impossible returns.

The ability to live in a country with good health care that will be there for me in any employment situation I find myself in, to not worry about crime or violence anywhere near the rate of the US, to have an expected life span of several years longer and the benefit of knowling that those less forunatate then myself will have, though a much lower standard of living than I will , assistance in making do that is at a higher level (last time I checked might be different now after the years of Bush) than the US can or will afford.

Socialism is as different from communism as conservativism is from Facism. But you either knew that and like to play your little games of insults or you are stuck in your little world of dogma.


People divide other people into two groups those who are just like them in looks language and thoughts (and bank accounts) and those who they fear, hate or loath.
Dogs also divide people into two groups those who are their friends and friends they have yet to meet.
04-29-2011, 01:41 PM   #162
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
..............Socialism is as different from communism as conservativism is from Facism. But you either knew that and like to play your little games of insults or you are stuck in your little world of dogma.

People divide other people into two groups those who are just like them in looks language and thoughts (and bank accounts) and those who they fear, hate or loath.
Dogs also divide people into two groups those who are their friends and friends they have yet to meet.
A good well written and sensible piece which unfortunately will be disregarded and ignored by the intended audience. The intended audience doesn't wish to know the things which you have spelled out here and they are not interested in intelligent dialogue or engaging in intelligent discourse.

Their only means of communicating political opinion is the use of negative labels (socialist being one of their favorites) and the good old "blame game" tactics.

Many are highly intelligent and perfectly capable of arguing over philosophical issues and even in getting the better of the argument through discussion. But it seems in this forum that we are subject only to the right wing extremists and these will never take the risk of loosing an intelligent discussion because they don't need to. They sit back and let Trump, Palin etc do the dirty work for them.

The voting public at large, which votes this way one election and the other way next, is often far more susceptible to name calling, lies, and belligerent right wing rhetoric when the economic conditions are negative and that seems to be the case right now. That is why their media spokesmen are so successful and command very high salaries as a result.
04-29-2011, 05:24 PM   #163
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Unfortunately, it is already painfully obvious who are the puppets and who are the puppet masters.
Because your government is little more than a lapdog to corporate interests, corporate fascism and national fascism will be indistinguishable from each other.
I really and honestly do fear for your country. I feel that if you elect what the present emulation of Republicans want you to elect, that your country will slip inexorably into some sort of fascism.
You already have many of the socio-political elements in place, with more and more people dropping into poverty, a very wealthy but very small economic elite who also pull all the strings of government, and very obviously use government as a means to maintain and grow their economic advantage, and a growing lack of common civility in your political discourse, where blame and vitriol is becoming the common theme.
A comparison between the USA today and the beginnings of fascism or even Naziism in Europe is eerie to say the least.
Equally disturbing is that it is apparently happening with the vocal assent of the people - there is no obvious backlash or dissent (outside of this forum).
04-29-2011, 10:49 PM   #164
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QuoteOriginally posted by GatorPentax Quote
I completely understand that Palin is not fit for presidency, loon? maybe a bit but i've seen alot worse. I just want to know why palin gets SO much attention when there are even crazier politicians sitting in an even more powerful seat in government that dont have a thread titled [insert politician name] is a retard.
Bachmann, Ryan, Cantor, I'm giving Boehner a pass for now, Rand Paul, The crazy freshman Repub. doctor who was appalled he had to "wait" for his health insurance...
The list goes on and on... Host of governors including Maine, Florida, Michigan, Wisconsin..........
05-01-2011, 09:07 PM   #165
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevewig Quote
Having not had the pleasure of reading this book, expand a little on your concerns......
Well, the book is about the lead-up to WWII. The thesis is basically that WWII was no more a "good war" than any other, and that it could have been prevented, and that pacifism (and by extension respect for your fellow human being) would have been the best way of preventing it. It goes into a lot of detail as to how both FDR and Churchill (along with most everyone else in power at the time) were racists and warmongers (Churchill in particular for the latter), but it also focuses on the uses of propaganda, the social motivations that led to the expulsion of the Jews from Germany and other European countries, and the complete unwillingness of any other countries to get their hands dirty. It also provides a lot of insight (for someone like me who hasn't done a lot of reading on the subject) as to the root causes of the problems in the Middle East right now.

In short, there's nothing that's 1:1 analogous for today's politics, but there are certain patterns that are strikingly familiar.

But it wasn't new in the 1930s and it hasn't changed now...
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