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05-07-2011, 02:39 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I thought you were a rogue nation prior to this "mission".
Nothing has happened in the last few days to change my opinion.
I notice you still are sidestepping the question I raised.
Do you have a direct answer or just more right zing mumbo jumbo.
Wow, you are a real winner, exactly what was your question or do you prefer to beat around the bush. BTW thanks for letting us know that you people in Canada think we are a rogue nation, I guess the long winters up there fux up your thought process.


Last edited by jogiba; 05-07-2011 at 02:44 PM.
05-07-2011, 02:46 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Trying Ben Laden is a whole can of worms by itself.. Was he a war criminal???
Can you really declare one w/ an organization without a state??
Criminals caught in or war on drugs are not brought before the Hague or any military tribunal... Just common criminals..as is al qaeda.
Nothing more then religious based (loosely) organized crime..
Where do you try him?? In the US? Where without a whole bunch of lawyers asking for a change in venue to someplace like Switzerland. There were enough multinationals killed to make that even difficult..

No, best thing. Let (for those that believe) God sort it out....

Be thankful no children were killed.. (as far as we know)

There's enough other injustice then to worry about what happened to a mass murderer who increased the level of chaos in the world..

To be honest, I'm glad it happened and at the same time morally appalled, and nothing will really change that.

I'm more appalled by the Iraq war and the 1000's and 10 of thousands killed then one individual.
We need closure on some issues.......... this is one.


This will all be left for future historians to sort out.

To wheatfield.. some of us would have wanted to bring him to justice (unlike the "rogue states") but have somewhat resigned ourselves to the idea it would be more show than substance.
Ask your Canadian gov. if they would have gladly tried him there. I think the answer would be no.... No every "civilized" government is probably glad it went the way it did..
All you can say for sure about Bin Laden is that you don't think he was a very nice guy.
By not trying him, you cannot say for sure he was guilty of anything other than not liking Westerners in general, and Americans in particular, neither of which is a crime.

Letting "God sort it out" is a cop out of the worst kind, as it alleviates anyone from having to take any sort of action regarding right or wrong.
Are we guilty of murder?
Who cares, I'm sure God will sort it out at some point.
In other words, we aren't comfortable with the idea of holding ourselves responsible for our actions, so we'll just do nothing and take smug satisfaction in knowing that nobody else will either.
I'm quite certain that you will also leave the criminals who ordered the invasion of Iraq and the criminals (err, sorry, you call them war heroes and veterans) to God's will as well, since your country's sense of justice is so lopsided and self serving as to be non existent in a very real sense.
How often do you thank your God about the Iraqi children that have died at the hands of your military?
How about the Afghan children who have been blown up by American bombs?
Do you thank your God for that?
How do you justify thanking your God for no children dying in one venue, but deciding to just let that same God sort out the right or wrong of killing children (among other non combatants) in another venue?
And tell me, why should anyone care about the deaths of a few thousand "innocent American" on Sept 11/ 01 when you don't seem to care enough about the deaths of tens or hundreds of thousands of equally innocent people who have died at the hands of American soldiers in the years since then to bring anyone to justice for those deaths?
Until you start bringing your international murders to justice, you are a rogue state, just like Iran, North Korea or any of the other countries that you accuse of being evil.
You can't say that "some of us" makes a case for you not being a rogue state, I'm equally certain that there are Iranians, North Koreans, etc who are unhappy with the goings on in their nations, but you still brand their countries as rogue because you don't like how they ignore the rule of law.
Just like the USA ignores the rule of law.
05-07-2011, 02:51 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
Wow, you are a real winner, exactly what was your question or do you prefer to beat around the bush. BTW thanks for letting us know that you people in Canada think we are a rogue nation, I guess the long winters up there fux up your thought process.
Enhance your comprehension skills, and reread post #20 in this thread.
You were asked a direct question.
Now, carry on beating about the bush and issuing personal insults, as it seems all you are capable of doing here.
Or stretch your mind really, really hard and try to come up with a direct and ambivalent answer to a direct and ambivalent question.
That is if you are up to the task. It is a really hard question, since it goes to your moral sense, so feel free to bail if you can't find your compass.
05-07-2011, 02:57 PM   #34
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"[Bin Laden] was engaged in a firefight with those that entered the area of the house he was in," said terror czar John Brennan. Similarly, Obama said that “after a firefight, they killed Osama bin Laden and took custody of his body.” The next day, however, the White House spokesman admitted bin Laden “was not armed." Trying to save face and justify the killing of an unarmed man, the spokesman added, without elaborating, that “resistance does not require a firearm."

LIE

More than a few other important parts of the storyline have been altered, contradicted, or simply exposed as false, too. Everything from which of bin Laden’s sons was supposedly killed to the claim that his wife was killed after being used as a “human shield” — all of it has changed for some reason or another.

LIE

The transcript after Brennan’s speech was altered to change the name of the dead son.

LIE

The new and improved narrative now says that not only was bin Laden’s wife not killed, but that she was not used as a human shield.

LIE

Originally the White House also suggested top officials watched the raid live through a video feed. Terror czar Brennan, for example, claimed that they “had real-time visibility into the progress of the operation.” CIA boss Leon Panetta later exposed that claim as false in an interview with PBS, saying: “There was a time period of almost 20 or 25 minutes that we really didn't know just exactly what was going on."

LIE

That means the “photo op” of Obama and other officials intently “watching” the operation in the “Situation Room” was almost certainly staged for the press.

Remember my posts about watching Wag the Dog? "Staged for the press.," indeed.

A poorly photo-shopped image of a dead bin Laden embarrassed a large swath of the world press and several Senators, too. Shortly after newspapers and television stations around the globe ran the image, it was exposed as a shoddy forgery that had been circulating for years. Now Obama said he “decided” not to release any pictures — or any other evidence that any element of the story is true, for that matter.

MORE LIES

And then there’s the burial issue. The Obama administration originally claimed no country would accept the body; so, it was dumped at sea — Mafia style — in accordance with what Obama alleged were Islamic traditions and customs. When prominent Muslim theological leaders repudiated that lie and noted that it was actually a violation of Islamic tenets to bury Osama bin Laden in the ocean, the new line was that the decision was to avoid the creation of a “shrine.” That lie fell apart, too, when it was widely reported that bin Laden’s brand of Islam calls for unmarked graves — building any sort of shrine would have been blasphemous. So far, no new excuses have been concocted for allegedly feeding the body to the fish.

EVEN MORE LIES Here

Why do so many of you posters take what any government says at face value?

And yes, I am an American and I think my Government is a Rogue Government.

05-07-2011, 02:58 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Enhance your comprehension skills, and reread post #20 in this thread.
You were asked a direct question.
Now, carry on beating about the bush and issuing personal insults, as it seems all you are capable of doing here.
Or stretch your mind really, really hard and try to come up with a direct and ambivalent answer to a direct and ambivalent question.
That is if you are up to the task. It is a really hard question, since it goes to your moral sense, so feel free to bail if you can't find your compass.
Is the USA a Rogue Nation ? You must be kidding, go look up the definition and come back here and post the results NOW.
05-07-2011, 03:04 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by K7Man Quote
_____________________


"[Bin Laden] was engaged in a firefight with those that entered the area of the house he was in," said terror czar John Brennan. Similarly, Obama said that “after a firefight, they killed Osama bin Laden and took custody of his body.” The next day, however, the White House spokesman admitted bin Laden “was not armed." Trying to save face and justify the killing of an unarmed man, the spokesman added, without elaborating, that “resistance does not require a firearm."

LIE

More than a few other important parts of the storyline have been altered, contradicted, or simply exposed as false, too. Everything from which of bin Laden’s sons was supposedly killed to the claim that his wife was killed after being used as a “human shield” — all of it has changed for some reason or another.

LIE

The transcript after Brennan’s speech was altered to change the name of the dead son.

LIE

The new and improved narrative now says that not only was bin Laden’s wife not killed, but that she was not used as a human shield.

LIE

Originally the White House also suggested top officials watched the raid live through a video feed. Terror czar Brennan, for example, claimed that they “had real-time visibility into the progress of the operation.” CIA boss Leon Panetta later exposed that claim as false in an interview with PBS, saying: “There was a time period of almost 20 or 25 minutes that we really didn't know just exactly what was going on."

LIE

That means the “photo op” of Obama and other officials intently “watching” the operation in the “Situation Room” was almost certainly staged for the press.

Remember my posts about watching Wag the Dog? "Staged for the press.," indeed.

A poorly photo-shopped image of a dead bin Laden embarrassed a large swath of the world press and several Senators, too. Shortly after newspapers and television stations around the globe ran the image, it was exposed as a shoddy forgery that had been circulating for years. Now Obama said he “decided” not to release any pictures — or any other evidence that any element of the story is true, for that matter.

MORE LIES

And then there’s the burial issue. The Obama administration originally claimed no country would accept the body; so, it was dumped at sea — Mafia style — in accordance with what Obama alleged were Islamic traditions and customs. When prominent Muslim theological leaders repudiated that lie and noted that it was actually a violation of Islamic tenets to bury Osama bin Laden in the ocean, the new line was that the decision was to avoid the creation of a “shrine.” That lie fell apart, too, when it was widely reported that bin Laden’s brand of Islam calls for unmarked graves — building any sort of shrine would have been blasphemous. So far, no new excuses have been concocted for allegedly feeding the body to the fish.

EVEN MORE LIES Here

Why do so many of you posters take what any government says at face value?

And yes, I am an American and I think my Government is a Rogue Government.


05-07-2011, 03:29 PM   #37
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________

You'd better look up the definition of Rogue State - Nation- Government and come back here and explain to us why the USA is not a Rogue Government.

IMV, the USA is the Rogue Government Par Excellence.

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05-07-2011, 03:33 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
BTW thanks for letting us know that you people in Canada think we are a rogue nation, I guess the long winters up there fux up your thought process.
jogiba, if just now realized that Canadians hate the U.S., you haven't been paying attention.
05-07-2011, 03:34 PM   #39
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QuoteQuote:
Rogue state is a controversial term applied by some international theorists to states they consider threatening to the world's peace. This means meeting certain criteria, such as being ruled by authoritarian regimes that severely restrict human rights, sponsor terrorism, and seek to proliferate weapons of mass destruction.[4] The term is used most by the United States, though it has been applied by other countries.[5]

Rogue states can also be differentiated from 'pariah states' such as Burma (Myanmar) and Zimbabwe who allegedly abuse the human rights of their populations while not being considered a tangible threat beyond their own borders, although the terms have been used interchangeably.
Rogue state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
05-07-2011, 03:39 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
jogiba, if just now realized that Canadians hate the U.S., you haven't been paying attention.


05-07-2011, 03:44 PM   #41
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.....come back here and explain to us why the USA is not a Rogue Government ......

Have to actually think for yourself here wouldn't you?


__

Warning - Cognitive Dissonance Zone ahead:

Quote:

Several excuses for the ever-changing story were offered by other publications, too. The possibility that they were deliberate lies or worse was virtually never addressed.

But the U.K. Independent noted: “The impression persists that the administration sought to cast the operation in the most heroic light possible, at the expense of the facts.

Now, the President and his spokespeople and subordinates are refusing to offer more details or explanations. (So much for Obama's transparency promise, eh?) The government has also announced that it will not be releasing pictures or any other evidence (evidence? LOL) to support its claims even as suspicions (known to reality deniers as "conspiracy theories") continue to mount.


op cite

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Last edited by K7Man; 05-07-2011 at 03:50 PM.
05-07-2011, 03:59 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by K7Man Quote
______________________________________________________________________

.....come back here and explain to us why the USA is not a Rogue Government ......

Have to actually think for yourself here wouldn't you?


__

Warning - Cognitive Dissonance Zone ahead:

Quote:

Several excuses for the ever-changing story were offered by other publications, too. The possibility that they were deliberate lies or worse was virtually never addressed.

But the U.K. Independent noted: “The impression persists that the administration sought to cast the operation in the most heroic light possible, at the expense of the facts.

Now, the President and his spokespeople and subordinates are refusing to offer more details or explanations. (So much for Obama's transparency promise, eh?) The government has also announced that it will not be releasing pictures or any other evidence (evidence? LOL) to support its claims even as suspicions (known to reality deniers as "conspiracy theories") continue to mount.


op cite

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05-07-2011, 04:27 PM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by jogiba Quote
The US dropped two atomic bombs on Japan in 1945 and killed thousands of woman and children in seconds but that may have saved many more lives in Japan if it was not done and I feel the same about this mission.
One major difference is at the time there were no prohibitions against nuclear attacks, now there are, at the time there was no international criminal court now with the US help there is.

If the US was to drop the bomb again in any thing other than self defence would that make it a rogue nation any more than if Iran or North Korea used it under the same circumstances.

I am no WWII expert but Japan did offer conditional surrender. Was the unconditional that necessary and if they offered that once would they have offered unconditional after a few more months of loss where those dying are the soldiers and not civilians. Again these are questions that do deserve thoughts. If Iraq had had nuclear or other weapons of mass destruction would it have been in its right to use them against the US upon being attacked. Obviously from an American point of view NO however international laws are not written from the view point of only one country.

Conflicts have been prevented and other minimized through international pressures and resistance. One hopes that we are progressing more and more towards a world where wars are more limited and more restricted in what they can do. At one time it was perfectly acceptable for the victor to kill all civilians and soldiers of their enemies if they won. Now civilians are not supposed to be targets. What moves us forward or takes us backwards is important for all.

Did killing bin Laden save more lives than arresting him? That is an important question that I do not know the answer. Does it give other countries the same rights to go into a third country to kill people? That is a second question. I am not arguing which is right or wrong, just that these are legitimate questions and are not the exclusive domain of the United States or its citizens. Throwing more emotional footage just means that the discussion should be strictly on emotion (revenge) instead of laws (justice, treaties). I understand the emotion however the other aspect must be considered as well. If it makes the world a less safe place than others are paying the price without any input. It may have been the very best that the US could or should do in the circumstances but that does not mean that it should not receive a complete analysis.
05-07-2011, 05:02 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Anyway, does this mean that it's perfectly fine for a government to just whack people summarily for wrongs that they may or may not have committed?
"May or may not" doesn't figure into this. It was definite. Don't tell me you are starting another conspiracy theory suggesting OBL was not a mass murderer. So the problem is, you ask questions that don't represent what evidence suggests happened.

From the report, Osama made a move . . . not smart. If he wanted to survive, he should have knelt, put his hands behind his head, or otherwise shown total compliance. Any other type of move was a potential threat by a proud and very effective killer of human beings.

Now, do you know it didn't go down as reported? I mean, if the Seals were going to lie, why admit he was unarmed? The report has a ring of truth to it, so all we need to know now is why you are trying to spin it so that the US looks bad.

Well, here's my guess. As you have demonstrated on prior occasions, you hate the US. When you tell stories about US exploits, it doesn't include a fair balance of good we've done, but over-emphasizes the bad, and then you generalize it to ALL Americans as if everyone here is responsible.

The world has benefitted from our President's heroic effort to get a bad guy, and that includes you. Instead of obsessing about our past sins, why not have a little hope for this new enlightened effort by Obama?
05-07-2011, 05:11 PM   #45
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Last time I checked, you want someone arrested, you use the FBI. You want them dead, you use the military. As far back as I can remember, this has always been a military mission.
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