[stevewig]

I am sure that 99.9% of the population is happy and rejoicing that OBL is dead and feeding fish at the bottom of the ocean. Nobody in the “free World” including myself could wish it to be otherwise so let us not revisit those now old facts and arguments.

All of us who are rejoicing this event are also consciously or unconsciously rejoicing that we ‘short-circuited’ justice and apparently assassinated or murdered an unarmed man without trial. There were other fatalities too. We have allowed al qaeda to pervert our justice system.

This is a theoretical discussion only about JUSTICE in the free, democratic world and how we square those ideas of justice with how the OBL case was handled and presumably new such cases will be handled.

After the world war 2, all of the NAZI High Command were put on trial, convicted on the evidence and most of them were executed. There can be no argument that that was done correctly and in accordance with society’s highest ideals and no matter how difficult it was to do.

Honorable men, in whose name this OBL killing was done, should be able to square this act with their own conscience. I am looking for convincing arguments explaining why the above action was JUST and with the WW II example before me as a measuring stick.

This is a theoretical discussion about our Justice system and our highest Ideals.

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Last edited by stevewig; 05-07-2011 at 11:08 AM.

[Parallax]

He tripped, and fell on a bullet.

[jeffkrol]

"Justice" is apparently fluid...
Your topic really is full of unfortunate land mines...
WWII "justice" was arguably one sided.. Those useful to the Americans were not tried and convicted. Just "imported" for our own good. Many were just let go to either use as bait or informants.. Many just weren't worth the bother and the expense nor the testimony that would likely link thwm to few w/ US Corporate interests (capitalism is amoral)..
As much as I Abhor "executions" (one of my work colleagues said it a bit ironic.. "We just shot a puppy" referring of course to an unarmed man). NOW the fog of war (both real and caused by data suppression) there is enough probable deniability that he could just possibly had a 10% chance (all just guesstimates of course)of actually putting up a real fight and since bad things can happen based on even the smallest of mistakes it was not that unreasonable.
US is full of injustice.. Corporations trash an entire economy and get bonuses. A black man sells a rock of cocaine to someone and gets 10 years hard time.....
Sorry, I've pretty well given up that justice and logic have ANYTHING to do w / our country. could just be the meds talking though (not serious)........

Bottom line is he most likely (99% odds) been tried and executed the subject is a bit moot...

As side note even the CIA is a bit miffed that we are just blowing them up w/ drones and losing the intel we could get from their capture.. Go figure......

Instead, the U.S. has increased airstrikes from unmanned Predator drones, which have killed terrorists in the tribal regions along the border of Afghanistan and Pakistan.
"We weren't capturing people anymore, they were just ending up dead in the tribal areas," said Bob Grenier, who ran the Counterterrorism Center from 2004 to 2006.
When that happens, Grenier said, the CIA doesn't get to inspect cell phones or documents or whatever else is in the room during the capture.
"They take their secrets with them," Grenier said.

ANOTHER side note (was debating whether to make it a seperate topic............
Trading MONEY for MORALITY.........

How do these women sleep at night? How do they climb into bed with men who kill, and torture, and steal? How do they stand on platforms and talk about the rights of women and children, while their husbands are stifling, and cheating, and sometimes even killing, the women's husbands and the children's fathers? How do they convince themselves that it's fine for them to have millions, while their people struggle to buy bread, and that, even with their millions, they need more?

The world isn't teeming with eligible men. Sometimes, as my mother always said, you can't afford to be too picky. But really.

Maybe you can excuse a 15-year-old Yemeni for marrying a middle-aged Saudi she barely knew. You can't excuse a 25-year-old woman for staying with a man she knew to be a mass murderer. You can't excuse a 54-year-old Tunisian for trying to steal money she must have known belonged to the people, or a 70-year-old Egyptian for trying to steal money that was clearly meant for the poor. And you can't begin to excuse a bright, well-educated, Syrian Brit for colluding in her husband's regime's mass murder.

Interesting topic on the mates of dictators.............
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/christina-patterson/christ...s-2280345.html

[jolepp]

From what we have been told it seems that the soldier(s) had to make a split second decision in a combat situation, that is, having been fired at with no particular reason to expect the resistance to cease. In such a situation you err to the side of safety of your own and the mission. While the ideal thing would have been getting OBL to be tried and sentenced as a matter of principle I suppose that was an unlikely outcome.

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Last edited by jolepp; 05-07-2011 at 11:05 AM. Reason: typo(s)...

[stevewig]

From what we have been told it seems that the soldier(s) had to make a split second decision in a combat situation, that is, having be fired at with no particular reason to expect the resistance to cease. In such a situation you err to the side of safety of your own and the mission. While the ideal thing would have been getting OBL to be tried and sentenced as a matter of principle I suppose this was an unlikely outcome.

I really, really hope that you are right - my instinct tells me otherwise!
I cannot believe, for one second, that if he had held his hands up and surrendered that he would still be alive.

[jogiba]

While the ideal thing would have been getting OBL to be tried and sentenced as a matter of principle I suppose this was an unlikely outcome.

That would be a mistake since al Qaeda /Taliban would kidnap Americans and hold them for ransom until OBL was released.

You Tube

You Tube

[stevewig]

......Bottom line is he most likely (99% odds) been tried and executed the subject is a bit moot...[/url]

Good response Jeff but I don't buy the point that you made above!

The measure of a good and just society is HOW you achieve justice as much as the actual justice itself. Otherwise is just lynching a man to save the cost and the trouble of a trial.

[stevewig]

That would be a mistake since al Qaeda /Taliban would kidnap Americans and hold them for ransom until OBL was released.

As your link shows, they do that in any case - if and whenever they can, in fact!

[Parallax]

I cannot believe, for one second, that if he had held his hands up and surrendered that he would still be alive.

That would be a disaster since al Qaeda would kidnap Americans and hold them for ransom until OBL was released.

Anything can happen during a mission that can change the plans and the intended outcome; but there was undoubtedly one absolute about this mission. They knew with certainty before the helicopters ever got airborne to take them into Pakistan, that OBL would not be on one of them alive when they left Pakistan.

[pixelsaurus]

I am sure that 99.9% of the population is happy and rejoicing that OBL is dead and feeding fish at the bottom of the ocean.

Which population?

[stevewig]

Which population?

I think you can figure that out without me.............

[jogiba]

As your link shows, they do that in any case - if and whenever they can, in fact!

So what are you saying, he would be better alive awaiting trial for over six years like Timothy McVeigh ?

[Wheatfield]

I don't really think anyone in the US government (and probably very few US citizens) were much interested in "justice".
Killing OBL was a vengeance killing, nothing more. No justice involved, just getting even.
Whether this makes the USA better or worse than any other rogue state that uses killing and terror for it's own ends depends, I suppose, on whether you believe this is a one off random event or the thin edge of the wedge.

[newarts]

I do not think there is a lawful way for a national government to unilaterally and summarily execute a non-citizen outside its jurisdiction. Nor should there be. I hope I've used reasonable words to make the statement.

I think it was clear that the US government intended the death of OBL unlike other cases in which the intent to kill an individual was not made public. In one case during the Clinton administration I believe a car carrying 5 people on a highway in Yemen was destroyed by a US missile because a particular person was in it (or might have been in it.)

I do not know if the intent to kill this person was published beforehand. It seems to me that the decision to execute someone (and perhaps anybody unfortunate enough to be nearby) should at least be made public.

Even if such announcements were made I don't think that public death warrants are sufficient to justify such behavior without the due process of a global court.

If they can kill him at will they can kill you at will.

Shades of Star Wars and the Evil Empire!

[magkelly]

I was a little upset that they killed him outright when I heard, particularly when I heard he was supposedly unarmed. I personally would have liked to have seen the man tried properly and duly executed but I'm guessing that they thought it would be hard to prevent him from using the media and his capture to promote even more violence.

Let's face it sometimes it can take years for cases to get to trial, and/or the appeals process can go on forever, particularly in capital punishment case. Would we really have wanted Bin Laden sitting on death row for the next 20 years?

IMHO, they still made a martyr out of the guy in his followers eyes. Bad move, but at least he won't be alive to fan those flames of hate even higher until he's finally executed.

Do I approve of the way this went down? Not really. I'll give the team that went in their due. They did what they were told to do and did it well. But I'm not particularly happy with the idea of anyone being shot down in cold blood, not even Bin Laden. Not by my government anyway.

I really think this is going to cause some major diplomatic problems for us down the road. Pakistan's response notwithstanding I think a lot of people, Muslims and non are not going to like how this all went down. I don't think Bin Laden's death was worth as many lives as it's taken to get the job done, or that might be taken as a result of future attacks inspired by the method of his death. I really wish they had captured him alive not taken him out like this.

Then again, he's finally dead and I simply cannot help but see that as a blessing to the world...