bad ebay purchase, what would you do?

ripit · 05-09-2011, 05:19 PM

First off, I'm only out 15$ so no big loss. I got a vivitar 28mm f2.5 m42 lens on ebay for 12.50 priority shipping (the only option the seller offered) plus 3.25 purchase price (I,m betting they were hoping it would bid higher). there was a dent in the built in lens hood (that was identified by the seller). what wasn't told was they tried to bend it back with pliers or something and smashed the threads and left a line dug into it on the outside. it was describe as

"Used, good condition"

"This is a very high quality well-built lens made to fit most cameras with an adapter"
"This lens is clean small scratch & dent on filter threads with scratches, no fungus. "

and then twice in big bold letters larger than the rest of the text
"good clean glass"

the front element has very small fine scratches all over it that require holding it at the right angle to see as well as several a bit larger that can be seen at any angle. it seems functional but its overall condition is dirty and worn.

the rear element of the lens is not centered. I noticed that the first time I looked at it. I'm not sure if they are made like that, but obviously it has been dropped, but more disturbing is that it was shipped in a padded envelope, not a box. I assume that was to get the flatrate 5$ priority shipping that was marked on the shipping label (though I paid 12.50 shipping). I do not have an m42 to k mount adapter yet to properly test it yet (I ordered one before I bid on this lens but its coming slow ship from china).

am I out of line for making an issue of it? sure it sold cheap but it was misrepresented, and the seller profited a lot on shipping at the cost of a box to protect it.

I contacted the seller and of course got the send it back for a refund. yea, spend 10$ to ship it to get a 3.25 refund... So I'm thinking bad feedback but of course I should git the seller a chance. what would I even ask for. partial refund (didn't pay much for it but ask for a percentage refund on principle)? ask the seller to refund the entire amount and eat return shipping?

what would you do?

Hound Tooth · 05-09-2011, 05:27 PM

Nope, you should get the seller to pay for return shipping and a full refund. Go through with a dispute if you have to. No reason why a bad eBay seller should cause you to lose any money. If it doesn't cost HIM money each time, he'll just sell it again to some other poor victim with the exact same ploy.

edit: DON'T get swindled into accepting a shipping refund after he's received the defective item. Get him to buy the return shipping label and send it to you via email. You shouldn't have to outlay any more money at this point.

dgaies · 05-09-2011, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by Hound Tooth

Nope, you should get the seller to pay for return shipping and a full refund. Go through with a dispute if you have to. No reason why a bad eBay seller should cause you to lose any money. If it doesn't cost HIM money each time, he'll just sell it again to some other poor victim with the exact same ploy.

edit: DON'T get swindled into accepting a shipping refund after he's received the defective item. Get him to buy the return shipping label and send it to you via email. You shouldn't have to outlay any more money at this point.

+1.

If the item was significantly misrepresented, regardless how much or little you paid, there's no reason you should be out any money. It sounds like it would be in the seller's best interest to just refund your entire purchase price (including shipping) and not bother to have you send the lens back as that's just going to cost him another $5 in shipping.

ripit · 05-09-2011, 06:42 PM

tend to agree. Even if its a small amount of money, they are still trying to pull a fast one (or completely ignored or are unable to tell the condition and just called it good). This was the second response after I told them taking a loss was not fair as the item was extensively not as described.

"Thank you for your critique, I thought the photos clearly showed the damage, In the future I should more clearly describe the damage for those who do not look at the pictures.
I apologize for any discomfort this transaction has caused you."

They obviously are not going to do anything. The only picture of the rear of the lens was dark and out of focus. The only picture that aimed at the damaged threads was focused on the near part of the lens and the damage was out of focus. The scratches were only seen in one small spot in a reflection on one of the pictures. I personally could not tell that they were scratches (they kind of looked like objects in the reflection). Regardless, it was not good condition or good clean glass.

Am I the only one or should "good clean glass" generally not mean hundreds of tiny scratches (even if they are tiny). I have no idea how they would effect image quality as I have never let a lens get anywhere near that bad. Some of the scratches are a bit worse too. They are not big gouges or anything but I suspect at least a few might effect image quality.

Coeurdechene · 05-09-2011, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by ripit

They are not big gouges or anything but I suspect at least a few might effect image quality.

You would be surprised at the amount of damage needed to really affect IQ.

Dirty lens article
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/139463-cracked...air-costs.html
LensRentals.com - Front Element Scratches

The only thing that i would really consider to take the hassle to claim and send back would be the descentering of the rear element..that can be a lot more worriying than the scratches.

Have you got a picture?

Wheatfield · 05-09-2011, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by Hound Tooth

Nope, you should get the seller to pay for return shipping and a full refund. Go through with a dispute if you have to. No reason why a bad eBay seller should cause you to lose any money. If it doesn't cost HIM money each time, he'll just sell it again to some other poor victim with the exact same ploy.

edit: DON'T get swindled into accepting a shipping refund after he's received the defective item. Get him to buy the return shipping label and send it to you via email. You shouldn't have to outlay any more money at this point.

+1. The only times I've been burned on eBay it's been on small amount items that the seller is playing the odds about whether the buyer will bother disputing or not.
I've disputed on any bad transaction, and if I haven't received some sort of resolution, I've left blisteringly bad feedback.
If you do have to leave bad feedback, wait until the last possible moment before that window closes, unscrupulous sellers will also leave bad feedback if a buyer calls them out.
As a buyer, as long as I complete the terms of the agreement as per the sellers rules, then good feedback should not depend on the sellers shoddy business practices.

Capslock118 · 05-09-2011, 07:14 PM

i don't think it would be out of line to consider a refund, though i wouldn't say the lens you bought was "significantly misrepresented" based on your description of the ad.

Not knowing the specific seller, keep in mind that a lot of businesses on ebay and on amazon exist on the business of small price/large volume sales. That lens might have been messed up by someone else, they said f* it and then donated it or something to that effect, and it showed up on ebay from this seller who is either trying to make a living on large volume sales or is a charity trying to make a little bit for their cause. Anyone ever buy a used book for pennies on amazon and the shipping is $6? Same principle - the large volume of sales gives the seller a better shipping rate but charges you the standard rate, so even if the book is sold for $.01 they still make a profit off the shipping and that money goes towards someones wallet or feeding some kid in symbolia...

Anyways the point is, I wouldn't automatically conclude the seller was trying to pull a fast one. I've bought products from the type of seller i've just described before and they were not products as described i.e. proper working condition. The problem is a seller like that doesn't have the resources or knowledge to check everything that comes in and out of it's doors other than a quick glance over and some rudimentary test just to make sure "it works". That's the business of large volume sales. Just contact them and they should be more than happy to accept a return (of course, you did make sure they have a return policy and looked over their feedback ratings before you hit 'bid now' didnt you?

)

My thoughts? if I were you I would consider the time it would take to return it, and how much you value your time. If it were me and I spent $15 on a lens that turned out to be not what I expected; I would consider it a sunk cost and forget about it. Think about that, are you really going to waste a couple of hours of your time over $15 because of some moral high ground that may or may not be justified?

Return it, leave a negative remark, don't return it, dont leave a negative remark, go out to lunch instead, whatever. Do research on the seller before making any accusatory assumptions in a feedback rating.

Last edited by Capslock118; 05-09-2011 at 07:19 PM.

wwwmorrell · 05-09-2011, 07:24 PM

Did you pay using PayPal ????????? if you did just file a dispute with them.

It will take time but you will get all your money back.

Hound Tooth · 05-09-2011, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by wwwmorrell

Did you pay using PayPal ????????? if you did just file a dispute with them.
It will take time but you will get all your money back.

And very little effort, too. I've opened (and won) disputes a few times. It makes the refund come a little slower, but it's very satisfying in the end.

KxBlaze · 05-09-2011, 07:32 PM

If the seller doesn't pay for the return shipping then I would stop payment of the credit card and let the seller know you did so. I'm pretty much sure the seller will then be much more inclined to pay for the return shipping. If he still doesn't then you have a "new" "crappy" lens and didn't have to pay for it.

ripit · 05-09-2011, 08:17 PM

I'm not that incredibly worried about the 15$ (money is tight but not that tight). I'm hoping it turns out to be usable though after I get the adapter. I don't have any other lenses to fit that spot and don,t want to spend the time hunting down another good deal. the closest are 50mm 1.9 and 1.7. I needed something wider and fast. I would like even faster or maybe a 28-? 2.8 zoom but that is out of my price range right now (even old and used).

so he offered refund of original shipping and purchase price but not return shipping. I also noticed something else. the metal ring around the rear element isn't so much off center (not as bad as it was earlier today), but rather its loose (firm to move but loose and will stay out of position). As its the furthest protruding part at the rear, I wonder if it took a good wack in shipping with only a padded envelope to protect it?

I,m thinking when I get the adapter, if the lens works well enough, then neutral feedback with less stars for item description. if it doesn't work I'm not sure. I'm not willing to invest a lot of time (or any more money such as return shipping). the loose rear element (or at least the metal ring around it) concerns me now though.

seems like it may have sticky aperture blades too (it just keeps getting better). Honestly, it would probably only get used at its fastest aperture (I have several lenses that are not as fast). Of course that forces me to change lenses to get a slower aperture.

I assume this is not normal behavior for this lens. if I push the pin quickly to close the aperture, occationally it doesn't close all the way (close but you can tell its slightly biger). if I release the pin fast it seems to always pop open but if I release it slow, it sometimes sticks at the end (it can take seconds for it to open the last little bit).

ripit · 05-09-2011, 08:37 PM

On a side note, is the focus on this lens supposed to be pretty tight? It's smooth but rather stiff?

JeffJS · 05-10-2011, 08:53 AM

Well...

Not everyone knows how to check for cleaning marks so it's quite believable that the seller didn't know they were there. Not saying they didn't, just that it's possible.

A dent in a filter ring is a dead giveaway that the lens has been damaged in some way. Whether they disclosed or even attempted a repair is really irrelevant at this point because in my mind, What else is wrong?

IF you are using this on a dSLR, the pin does nothing. You will put the lens on to M and use the aperture ring to set the iris.

K-9 · 05-10-2011, 09:39 AM

On all not as described claims, paypal requires you ship the item back to the seller, and you may have to show paypal proof you sent it and it got delivered. Kind of a pain if you only paid $15.

ripit · 05-10-2011, 02:19 PM

As the seller will not pay return shipping, the net refund might be 6-7$ so its not even worth the trouble of a dispute or the wasted time and effort to send it back. If the lens is usable at all its worth 6-7$ easy, if not, no big loss.

As far as feedback, there are what could be considered cleaning marks all over the lens, but there are also larger scratches, nicks and abrasions. None are really big (abrasions maybe 1-2mm, more noticeable scratches a few mm long that are not from cleaning unless there was sand or bad grit on the cloth, and 1mm or less wide nicks). At first glance without tilting it to get the reflection at a certain angle, it looks like a scratched up lens. you don't have to be a expert to know that not good condition. it looks like it has been kicking around a camera bag loose plenty of times, and dropped at least a few times (once really bad). slightly sticky blades and a loose rear element, and a generally dirty and rough appearance (the white markings are all brown etc). shipped in an envelop wasn't good either. I think that's enough for bad feedback even if the person wasn't an expert.

On a side note, the seller has 118 feedback, with only 20 as seller so its not a mass seller that doesn't have time to check items (unless they are selling elsewhere). Rather it looks like they have be mass purchasing lenses (13 so far in may), and at least a few dozen more going further back. You would think they would know a little about lenses (though many are very cheap lenses, even 4 lenses for 15$).

05-09-2011, 05:19 PM	#1
ripit Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: NewYork Posts: 899	bad ebay purchase, what would you do? First off, I'm only out 15$ so no big loss. I got a vivitar 28mm f2.5 m42 lens on ebay for 12.50 priority shipping (the only option the seller offered) plus 3.25 purchase price (I,m betting they were hoping it would bid higher). there was a dent in the built in lens hood (that was identified by the seller). what wasn't told was they tried to bend it back with pliers or something and smashed the threads and left a line dug into it on the outside. it was describe as "Used, good condition" "This is a very high quality well-built lens made to fit most cameras with an adapter" "This lens is clean small scratch & dent on filter threads with scratches, no fungus. " and then twice in big bold letters larger than the rest of the text "good clean glass" the front element has very small fine scratches all over it that require holding it at the right angle to see as well as several a bit larger that can be seen at any angle. it seems functional but its overall condition is dirty and worn. the rear element of the lens is not centered. I noticed that the first time I looked at it. I'm not sure if they are made like that, but obviously it has been dropped, but more disturbing is that it was shipped in a padded envelope, not a box. I assume that was to get the flatrate 5$ priority shipping that was marked on the shipping label (though I paid 12.50 shipping). I do not have an m42 to k mount adapter yet to properly test it yet (I ordered one before I bid on this lens but its coming slow ship from china). am I out of line for making an issue of it? sure it sold cheap but it was misrepresented, and the seller profited a lot on shipping at the cost of a box to protect it. I contacted the seller and of course got the send it back for a refund. yea, spend 10$ to ship it to get a 3.25 refund... So I'm thinking bad feedback but of course I should git the seller a chance. what would I even ask for. partial refund (didn't pay much for it but ask for a percentage refund on principle)? ask the seller to refund the entire amount and eat return shipping? what would you do?

05-09-2011, 06:51 PM	#5
Coeurdechene Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: madrid Photos: Albums Posts: 833	Originally posted by ripit They are not big gouges or anything but I suspect at least a few might effect image quality. You would be surprised at the amount of damage needed to really affect IQ. Dirty lens article https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/139463-cracked...air-costs.html LensRentals.com - Front Element Scratches The only thing that i would really consider to take the hassle to claim and send back would be the descentering of the rear element..that can be a lot more worriying than the scratches. Have you got a picture? Last edited by Coeurdechene; 05-09-2011 at 07:09 PM.

05-09-2011, 08:17 PM	#11
ripit Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: NewYork Posts: 899 Original Poster	I'm not that incredibly worried about the 15$ (money is tight but not that tight). I'm hoping it turns out to be usable though after I get the adapter. I don't have any other lenses to fit that spot and don,t want to spend the time hunting down another good deal. the closest are 50mm 1.9 and 1.7. I needed something wider and fast. I would like even faster or maybe a 28-? 2.8 zoom but that is out of my price range right now (even old and used). so he offered refund of original shipping and purchase price but not return shipping. I also noticed something else. the metal ring around the rear element isn't so much off center (not as bad as it was earlier today), but rather its loose (firm to move but loose and will stay out of position). As its the furthest protruding part at the rear, I wonder if it took a good wack in shipping with only a padded envelope to protect it? I,m thinking when I get the adapter, if the lens works well enough, then neutral feedback with less stars for item description. if it doesn't work I'm not sure. I'm not willing to invest a lot of time (or any more money such as return shipping). the loose rear element (or at least the metal ring around it) concerns me now though. seems like it may have sticky aperture blades too (it just keeps getting better). Honestly, it would probably only get used at its fastest aperture (I have several lenses that are not as fast). Of course that forces me to change lenses to get a slower aperture. I assume this is not normal behavior for this lens. if I push the pin quickly to close the aperture, occationally it doesn't close all the way (close but you can tell its slightly biger). if I release the pin fast it seems to always pop open but if I release it slow, it sometimes sticks at the end (it can take seconds for it to open the last little bit). Last edited by ripit; 05-09-2011 at 08:30 PM.

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05-09-2011, 05:27 PM	#2
Hound Tooth Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Williston, VT Posts: 268	Nope, you should get the seller to pay for return shipping and a full refund. Go through with a dispute if you have to. No reason why a bad eBay seller should cause you to lose any money. If it doesn't cost HIM money each time, he'll just sell it again to some other poor victim with the exact same ploy. edit: DON'T get swindled into accepting a shipping refund after he's received the defective item. Get him to buy the return shipping label and send it to you via email. You shouldn't have to outlay any more money at this point.

05-09-2011, 05:34 PM	#3
dgaies Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Maryland / Washington DC Posts: 3,917	Originally posted by Hound Tooth Nope, you should get the seller to pay for return shipping and a full refund. Go through with a dispute if you have to. No reason why a bad eBay seller should cause you to lose any money. If it doesn't cost HIM money each time, he'll just sell it again to some other poor victim with the exact same ploy. edit: DON'T get swindled into accepting a shipping refund after he's received the defective item. Get him to buy the return shipping label and send it to you via email. You shouldn't have to outlay any more money at this point. +1. If the item was significantly misrepresented, regardless how much or little you paid, there's no reason you should be out any money. It sounds like it would be in the seller's best interest to just refund your entire purchase price (including shipping) and not bother to have you send the lens back as that's just going to cost him another $5 in shipping.

05-09-2011, 06:42 PM	#4
ripit Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: NewYork Posts: 899 Original Poster	tend to agree. Even if its a small amount of money, they are still trying to pull a fast one (or completely ignored or are unable to tell the condition and just called it good). This was the second response after I told them taking a loss was not fair as the item was extensively not as described. "Thank you for your critique, I thought the photos clearly showed the damage, In the future I should more clearly describe the damage for those who do not look at the pictures. I apologize for any discomfort this transaction has caused you." They obviously are not going to do anything. The only picture of the rear of the lens was dark and out of focus. The only picture that aimed at the damaged threads was focused on the near part of the lens and the damage was out of focus. The scratches were only seen in one small spot in a reflection on one of the pictures. I personally could not tell that they were scratches (they kind of looked like objects in the reflection). Regardless, it was not good condition or good clean glass. Am I the only one or should "good clean glass" generally not mean hundreds of tiny scratches (even if they are tiny). I have no idea how they would effect image quality as I have never let a lens get anywhere near that bad. Some of the scratches are a bit worse too. They are not big gouges or anything but I suspect at least a few might effect image quality.

05-09-2011, 06:58 PM	#6
Wheatfield Moderator Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: The wheatfields of Canada Posts: 15,981	Originally posted by Hound Tooth Nope, you should get the seller to pay for return shipping and a full refund. Go through with a dispute if you have to. No reason why a bad eBay seller should cause you to lose any money. If it doesn't cost HIM money each time, he'll just sell it again to some other poor victim with the exact same ploy. edit: DON'T get swindled into accepting a shipping refund after he's received the defective item. Get him to buy the return shipping label and send it to you via email. You shouldn't have to outlay any more money at this point. +1. The only times I've been burned on eBay it's been on small amount items that the seller is playing the odds about whether the buyer will bother disputing or not. I've disputed on any bad transaction, and if I haven't received some sort of resolution, I've left blisteringly bad feedback. If you do have to leave bad feedback, wait until the last possible moment before that window closes, unscrupulous sellers will also leave bad feedback if a buyer calls them out. As a buyer, as long as I complete the terms of the agreement as per the sellers rules, then good feedback should not depend on the sellers shoddy business practices.

05-09-2011, 07:14 PM	#7
Capslock118 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: New Haven, CT Photos: Gallery Posts: 173	i don't think it would be out of line to consider a refund, though i wouldn't say the lens you bought was "significantly misrepresented" based on your description of the ad. Not knowing the specific seller, keep in mind that a lot of businesses on ebay and on amazon exist on the business of small price/large volume sales. That lens might have been messed up by someone else, they said f* it and then donated it or something to that effect, and it showed up on ebay from this seller who is either trying to make a living on large volume sales or is a charity trying to make a little bit for their cause. Anyone ever buy a used book for pennies on amazon and the shipping is $6? Same principle - the large volume of sales gives the seller a better shipping rate but charges you the standard rate, so even if the book is sold for $.01 they still make a profit off the shipping and that money goes towards someones wallet or feeding some kid in symbolia... Anyways the point is, I wouldn't automatically conclude the seller was trying to pull a fast one. I've bought products from the type of seller i've just described before and they were not products as described i.e. proper working condition. The problem is a seller like that doesn't have the resources or knowledge to check everything that comes in and out of it's doors other than a quick glance over and some rudimentary test just to make sure "it works". That's the business of large volume sales. Just contact them and they should be more than happy to accept a return (of course, you did make sure they have a return policy and looked over their feedback ratings before you hit 'bid now' didnt you? ) My thoughts? if I were you I would consider the time it would take to return it, and how much you value your time. If it were me and I spent $15 on a lens that turned out to be not what I expected; I would consider it a sunk cost and forget about it. Think about that, are you really going to waste a couple of hours of your time over $15 because of some moral high ground that may or may not be justified? Return it, leave a negative remark, don't return it, dont leave a negative remark, go out to lunch instead, whatever. Do research on the seller before making any accusatory assumptions in a feedback rating. Last edited by Capslock118; 05-09-2011 at 07:19 PM.

05-09-2011, 07:24 PM	#8
wwwmorrell Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Mount Buller, Australia Posts: 397	Did you pay using PayPal ????????? if you did just file a dispute with them. It will take time but you will get all your money back.

05-09-2011, 07:31 PM	#9
Hound Tooth Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Williston, VT Posts: 268	Originally posted by wwwmorrell Did you pay using PayPal ????????? if you did just file a dispute with them. It will take time but you will get all your money back. And very little effort, too. I've opened (and won) disputes a few times. It makes the refund come a little slower, but it's very satisfying in the end.

05-09-2011, 07:32 PM	#10
KxBlaze Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: California Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,602	If the seller doesn't pay for the return shipping then I would stop payment of the credit card and let the seller know you did so. I'm pretty much sure the seller will then be much more inclined to pay for the return shipping. If he still doesn't then you have a "new" "crappy" lens and didn't have to pay for it.

05-09-2011, 08:37 PM	#12
ripit Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: NewYork Posts: 899 Original Poster	On a side note, is the focus on this lens supposed to be pretty tight? It's smooth but rather stiff?

05-10-2011, 08:53 AM	#13
JeffJS Inactive Account Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Michigan, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 7,484	Well... Not everyone knows how to check for cleaning marks so it's quite believable that the seller didn't know they were there. Not saying they didn't, just that it's possible. A dent in a filter ring is a dead giveaway that the lens has been damaged in some way. Whether they disclosed or even attempted a repair is really irrelevant at this point because in my mind, What else is wrong? IF you are using this on a dSLR, the pin does nothing. You will put the lens on to M and use the aperture ring to set the iris.

05-10-2011, 09:39 AM	#14
K-9 Veteran Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: USA Photos: Albums Posts: 1,971	On all not as described claims, paypal requires you ship the item back to the seller, and you may have to show paypal proof you sent it and it got delivered. Kind of a pain if you only paid $15.

05-10-2011, 02:19 PM	#15
ripit Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: NewYork Posts: 899 Original Poster	As the seller will not pay return shipping, the net refund might be 6-7$ so its not even worth the trouble of a dispute or the wasted time and effort to send it back. If the lens is usable at all its worth 6-7$ easy, if not, no big loss. As far as feedback, there are what could be considered cleaning marks all over the lens, but there are also larger scratches, nicks and abrasions. None are really big (abrasions maybe 1-2mm, more noticeable scratches a few mm long that are not from cleaning unless there was sand or bad grit on the cloth, and 1mm or less wide nicks). At first glance without tilting it to get the reflection at a certain angle, it looks like a scratched up lens. you don't have to be a expert to know that not good condition. it looks like it has been kicking around a camera bag loose plenty of times, and dropped at least a few times (once really bad). slightly sticky blades and a loose rear element, and a generally dirty and rough appearance (the white markings are all brown etc). shipped in an envelop wasn't good either. I think that's enough for bad feedback even if the person wasn't an expert. On a side note, the seller has 118 feedback, with only 20 as seller so its not a mass seller that doesn't have time to check items (unless they are selling elsewhere). Rather it looks like they have be mass purchasing lenses (13 so far in may), and at least a few dozen more going further back. You would think they would know a little about lenses (though many are very cheap lenses, even 4 lenses for 15$).