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05-13-2011, 06:48 AM   #1
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Who are these people who continually have been wrong, and never right, for 70+ years?

fun read Mikemike you here????
QuoteQuote:
People who don’t know what they’re talking about, but who want to sound erudite, love to use dramatic terms that can’t be disproved. A classic example is “ticking time bomb,” when referring to the federal debt and deficit.

This blog contains three posts (“Federal debt: ‘A ticking time bomb”; “Debt bomb redux”; “More debt bomb nonsense” ) sampling the thousands of times since 1940 (!), the debt has been called a “time bomb.”

The nice thing about “ticking time bomb”: The users never needed to prove or substantiate anything. They didn’t have to say when it would explode or what would make it explode or what would happen after it exploded. They don’t even feel the need to explain why their dire predictions have been wrong, wrong and wrong, every year. They could just use the expression, then stand back, look wise and bask in the adoration.

Well, another description of the federal debt and deficit can be included in the “I know nothing, but I want to look smart” club. This time the term is “unsustainable.” In a previous post I hoped never to see that trite, meaningless term again (See: Unsustainable), but it was not to be. Here are just a few of the uses in the past 28 years.
QuoteQuote:
Does “unsustainable mean that large federal deficits cause inflation? No, ever since the end of the gold standard in 1971, there has been zero relationship between large deficits and inflation, which seems to be related mostly to oil prices.

The whole notion of federal debt unsustainability is not in accord with fact or possibility.

For 30 years the gurus have told us the debt is unsustainable, without them having the slightest notion what it means. The next time someone tells you the federal debt is unsustainable, you’ll know they have no idea what they are talking about.
–The federal debt is unsustainable — still? Monetary Sovereignty – Mitchell
SHORT bio of interest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rodgermitchell
QuoteQuote:
In 1996, Mitchell wrote the book, THE ULTIMATE AMERICA, which he later republished under the title, FREE MONEY, PLAN FOR PROSPERITY. The books were based on three facts:
1. A growing economy requires a growing supply of money.
2. All money is a form of debt.
3. The Federal Government has the unlimited ability to create money.

These three fundamental truths, and subsequent research, led to Mr. Mitchell's assertion that federal taxes could and should be eliminated.



Last edited by jeffkrol; 05-13-2011 at 06:55 AM.
05-13-2011, 07:06 AM   #2
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
The nice thing about “ticking time bomb”: The users never needed to prove or substantiate anything. They didn’t have to say when it would explode or what would make it explode or what would happen after it exploded. They don’t even feel the need to explain why their dire predictions have been wrong, wrong and wrong, every year. They could just use the expression, then stand back, look wise and bask in the adoration.
Weather forecasters operate on the same principal. They can't possibly be wrong if they forecast 30% chance of rain.

The same principal applies to "climate change".
05-13-2011, 07:12 AM   #3
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I've had this debate about MMT on another forum. I think that we are no where near the point of the bomb, but that does not mean we couldn't get there. The only way we "default" on our debts is if we choose to do so--which is exactly what the House majority is threatening right now, but that is another story.

On the other extreme, if we suddenly created 100 dollars for every dollar out there now with the flick of a switch, I have some trouble believing that persons outside our system wouldn't view those dollars as being worth closer to one cent, and we will either need to cut back on imports or suffer inflation. As we make less and less that other countries want, I think that threshold goes down.
05-13-2011, 07:16 AM   #4
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Jim. 'climate change' isn't a problem. It is a fact of geological life. Just ask the dinosaurs.

The problem is 'catastrophic man made climate change'. Not a geological fact of life.

The argument is dependent on which cycle one believes we are in. Personally I can't see how closing down pollution can be a bad thing, no matter which position one takes.

05-13-2011, 07:17 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
I've had this debate about MMT on another forum. I think that we are no where near the point of the bomb, but that does not mean we couldn't get there. The only way we "default" on our debts is if we choose to do so--which is exactly what the House majority is threatening right now, but that is another story.

On the other extreme, if we suddenly created 100 dollars for every dollar out there now with the flick of a switch, I have some trouble believing that persons outside our system wouldn't view those dollars as being worth closer to one cent, and we will either need to cut back on imports or suffer inflation. As we make less and less that other countries want, I think that threshold goes down.
Yes, a matter of psychology and perception not fiscal nor reality.........
The "bomb" kicks in at 100% utilization of resources (including labor)....... Globally and in the US we are a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG way from it.
As to the 1 dollar into 100
We've already done that. went to the wrong people for the wrong reasons.
Should have just done an emergency payoff of mortgages and all would be good. Now they get to "double dip".. Money from the fed, property for sale from a foreclosure..

funny a search w/
disputing Rodger Malcolm Mitchell
Turns up nothing................
05-13-2011, 07:52 AM   #6
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Today we call them Teabaggers.
05-13-2011, 07:59 AM   #7
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OTH, there have been people calling out the ticking time bomb on human population, on the collapse of the capitalist system, and the next major economic collapse in general.

Every now and then these folks are right. If they are in the stock picking game, they make a lot of money for a couple of years based on their notoriety of having called the crash... and then fade back into the pack.

This is not to disagree with the general tenor of the money thing, I'm just sayin'...

05-13-2011, 08:01 AM   #8
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I hope the idea that a government can just print money is true, for America's sake. They've so crippled themselves with military spending, that if it's not they are pretty much dead in the water. There is absoutely no way they can get out of this using traditional fiscal responsibility, so now we have the wingnuts coming out of the wood work saying, just print more money. What other theory do they have left? I do agree though as long as everyone buys in to it, it looks pretty good. On the other hand, if the world wakes up tomorrow and decides they aren't taking any more American dollars.. there won't be a thing the US can do about it. So much of their manufacturing has been shipped overseas. What do Americans actually produce that they can buy with those inflated dollars?

I hope you guys are right, I hope that the world continues to prop up the US dollar against all logic.. I can't imagine what the consequences would be if they didn't.. and that's the best thing you have going for you.
05-13-2011, 08:02 AM   #9
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Sorry. I was off topic.
05-13-2011, 08:05 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by wizofoz Quote
Sorry. I was off topic.
Not possible, here........LOL
05-13-2011, 08:08 AM   #11
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I hope the idea that a government can just print money is true, for America's sake. They've so crippled themselves with military spending, that if it's not they are pretty much dead in the water. There is absoutely no way they can get out of this using traditional fiscal responsibility, so now we have the wingnuts coming out of the wood work saying, just print more money. What other theory do they have left? I do agree though as long as everyone buys in to it, it looks pretty good. On the other hand, if the world wakes up tomorrow and decides they aren't taking any more American dollars.. there won't be a thing the US can do about it. So much of their manufacturing has been shipped overseas. What do Americans actually produce that they can buy with those inflated dollars?

I hope you guys are right, I hope that the world continues to prop up the US dollar against all logic.. I can't imagine what the consequences would be if they didn't.. and that's the best thing you have going for you.
Norm. it isn't a matter of when. It has already happened. The problem is that post WW2, the USA decided that the US$ would be the world wide gold standard for currency and kiboshed a move for a 'global' currency which would have avoided most of the current equity problems.

the scheme worked well for most of 50 years, until 'the greatest country in the world' was not that any more. No economic powerhouse. No Up and at 'em American know how. Just a sad, pale hulk bled dry by corporate greed.

The US$ is dead as a universal unit of monetary stability. The problem now is what replaces it?
05-13-2011, 09:42 AM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by wizofoz Quote
Norm. it isn't a matter of when. It has already happened. The problem is that post WW2, the USA decided that the US$ would be the world wide gold standard for currency and kiboshed a move for a 'global' currency which would have avoided most of the current equity problems.

the scheme worked well for most of 50 years, until 'the greatest country in the world' was not that any more. No economic powerhouse. No Up and at 'em American know how. Just a sad, pale hulk bled dry by corporate greed.

The US$ is dead as a universal unit of monetary stability. The problem now is what replaces it?
You got your "own guy"

billy blog

QuoteQuote:

Bill Mitchell is the Research Professor in Economics and Director of the Centre of Full Employment and Equity (CofFEE), at the University of Newcastle, NSW Australia.

He is also a professional musician and plays guitar with the Melbourne Reggae-Dub band – Pressure Drop. The band was popular around the live music scene in Melbourne in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The band reformed in late 2010.

He also plays with a Newcastle swing blues band – The Blues Box.

You can find music and other things on his Home Page.

You can contact him via Mobile Phone on 0419 422 410 (anywhere in the World).

You can also E-mail him on Bill.Mitchell_@_newcastle.edu.au (delete the underscores).

The photo to the left was taken in August 2009 in Newcastle, Australia.
For the curious and related to the thread on fascisim..
Bill's chart:

05-13-2011, 12:04 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
I believe everything people write in their own personal wikipedia autobiography. It reads like the official biographies of Kim Jong Il, the only things its missing is a mention about how hes shot 8 holes-in-one in a single round of golf.


QuoteQuote:
funny a search w/
disputing Rodger Malcolm Mitchell
Turns up nothing................
You could read some of the reviews on amazon of his book if you want to read poeple who have disputed his claims...

QuoteQuote:
There is some clear thinking, and an ability to at least question a few tenets of conventional economic thinking, but the author's lack of understanding of the Federal Reserve system and where treasury bonds go (abroad, for the most part) shows a failure to grasp one of the most basic issues in monetary reform. This book is a pitch for infinite borrowing and elimination of taxes, written in sound bites. If you enjoy being lectured to by a (very good) propogandist, this book is for you.

If, however, you have a genuine interest in monetary reform in a way that will benefit society in general (rather than a small sliver of the very wealthy), try Michael Rowbotham's 'The Grip of Death' or Ellen Hodgson Brown's 'The Web of Debt'. These will explain to you why we are in the economic mess we are in and what would really help to get us out of it.
QuoteQuote:
He rejects and/or misstates virtually everything in macroeconomics in a way that a first-semester undergraduate economics student could shred. Among the many logical fallacies are his statement that because an economy requires money to grow, and because money is debt, and because a large economy requires more debt than anybody but the federal government could manage, this proves that the economy requires ever-growing federal debt. He frequently confuses correlation with causality when he compares various economic variables. He lists a number of statements that he claims are all false, even though they are not even controversial to anyone other than the author.
...
Perhaps in his next book he will write a critique of modern medical research, with all of the answers that have eluded medical science over the centuries.
QuoteQuote:
In a nutshell, this book's basic premise is that the government can create money at will. Therefore, the government should create all the money it wants and make us all rich. It doesn't take a PhD in economics to realize the absurdity of such a hypothesis. Freely printing money at will was tried before in this and other countries amd the results are always disasterous.
That is a sampling, but as the book has only 8 reviews so this guy obviously hasn't sold many copies in 15 years. The positive reviews seem to be people who are kind of desperate for their own personal bailout and are willing to subscribe to MMT's magical thinking and fantastic promises.
05-13-2011, 12:08 PM   #14
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Kinda like libertarianism.
05-13-2011, 12:24 PM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
I believe everything people write in their own personal wikipedia autobiography. It reads like the official biographies of Kim Jong Il, the only things its missing is a mention about how hes shot 8 holes-in-one in a single round of golf.
You could read some of the reviews on amazon of his book if you want to read poeple who have disputed his claims...

That is a sampling, but as the book has only 8 reviews so this guy obviously hasn't sold many copies in 15 years. The positive reviews seem to be people who are kind of desperate for their own personal bailout and are willing to subscribe to MMT's magical thinking and fantastic promises.

No I want some scholarly discourse.. He is a successful businessman....
I like his style and find it a good counterpoint to the tinfoil hatted Rand/Ryan clone crowd

Granted at the far end of the MMT spectrum..
Bill Mitchell may be a bit tamer for you..........
billy blog

USING Amazon reviews???
QuoteQuote:
Sadly, the author understands federal finances better than most mainstream economists, August 8, 2010
By
Piotrek (CT, USA) - See all my reviews
This review is from: Free Money: Plan for Prosperity (Paperback)
Since 1971 the US is off the gold standard. This means that a growing economy cannot be thrown into depression just because there is not enough gold to back the growing stock of money required to sustain it. It is enough now to create the money out of nothing. And this is done, the quantity of money created is known as the "federal debt", and it is completely unlike a household or corporate debt, which is a real financial burden. Debt cannot be a burden to an entity that creates money.
QuoteQuote:
Every once in a while, you find a book that changes your view of the world. FREE MONEY showed me why the common knowledge about the economy is completely wrong. It showed me how to predict the stock market, which I've done successfully for the past 5 years, using the simple method described.
It showed me why we had the recession and the recovery. It showed me why Chairman Greenspan's mistakes were largely responsible for the recession, and how close we were to a depression.
It showed me solutions to the Social Security and Medicare problems.
In short, this is one of the most important books I ever have read, and it made a lot of money for me, too.
BOTTOM line the GOV. HAS created money at will... the gloom and doom people on the economy are equiv. to the Mayan calender people or "the end is near".... year after year, decade after decade........

funny I checked on one of the "critics"...........
Here's his idea of a good book...........
QuoteQuote:
The Creature from Jekyll Island : A Second Look at the Federal Reserve (Paperback)
The book is griping, and it was the first book I read on the Federal Reserve. It's claims seemed so fantastic that I had to investigate further. I have since read 3 rather large books by Dr. Murray Rothbard and am in the processes of reading "Secrets of the Temple: How the Federal Reserve Runs the Country " by William Greider. In addition, I have taken two courses in Economics. There has not been one single contradiction of anything Edward Griffin says regarding the mechanics of the Federal Reserve in any of those books- which is truly frightening.

However, in addition to detailing thet workings of the Federal Reserve, Mr. Griffin weaves a spellbinding tale of a global conspiracy that dates back to the Rothschild's. Illuminati who are in positions of power and looking to dominate the world. Among many of Mr. Griffin's conspiritorial allegations are that the Luistania was arranged to be sunk by Winston Churchill in order to push the US into the first world war. Mr. Griffin alleges that Churchill was part of a larger conspiracy involving JP Morgan and Cecil Rhodes to dominate the world of global fianance.

So, in addition, Io read a book on the sinking of the Lusitania that disproves some of the elements of Mr. Griffin's story. In short, this book seems a bit like the Da Vinci code. It took the factual workings of the Federal Reserve and married it to the Illuminati conspiracy theory. All in all, I think the truth was stranger than the fiction.

Last edited by jeffkrol; 05-13-2011 at 12:32 PM.
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