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05-17-2011, 02:36 PM   #31
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So if I come to post here during working hours, am I an idle resource? And MMT says... because of me we can therefore spend a bit more in defecits? I'm all for that

05-17-2011, 05:12 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Colbyt Quote


The truth remains that you do not have enough military to protect your lands in the modern world.
Protect from whom?
The only country that I could see really wanting to invade Canada would be the USA, and there is no way in hell that a country of 30 million that buys it's military technology from the USA is going to stand up to the USA in the event that the USA decides to make a land grab.
This is the downside of going along with Eisenhower in the 50s.
OTOH, if we had decided to become a super power, the USA would have viewed us as a military threat and would have gone to war with us.

Building a large military force is a no win situation for us.

QuoteOriginally posted by Colbyt Quote
The thing that pisses me off is when you guys try to tell us how we should do things. I don't think I have a right to tell you and you sure as hell have no right to tell me.
When decisions that your country makes has a deleterious effect on my country, then we have every right to protest.
And if you really don't think the USA does the same thing, I suggest you have a look at the history of our trade disagreements over the past couple of decades where the USA has very much tried to dictate how we do things.

QuoteOriginally posted by Colbyt Quote
And I still like your images.
Thanks, I appreciate the compliment.
05-17-2011, 06:05 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Protect from whom?
Don't forget Mexico
05-17-2011, 06:59 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
Okay, this author is a lot more coherent in presenting this, but there is big problem with this logic.

This "IF" means that government cannot spend on something which is already running at full capacity. Hospitals and healthcare providers already have too many patients, so the government cannot spend money on healthcare without introducing healthcare inflation. Also, what do you do with all of the extra output? The government orders extra cars from GM to keep them running at full capacity but those cars then go sit on lots in storage? What happens when the extra cars being produced taps out the supply of steel and you get commodities inflation, likewise if the workers at the factory get injured on the job they have to go to the hospital and they cause health care inflation treating injuries which resulted from producing cars which weren't needed. There is fallowed farmland, do we get the farmers to plant those fields too? They then need to buy fertilizer which has a feedback loop with petroleum and natural gas. Power plants have idle capacity depending on the time of day and the season, should the government pay the power companies to produce power from coal and natural gas when there is no demand?

MMT views an idled resource is a wasted resource. The rest of the economists in the world view uneaten food, undriven cars, and discharged electricity as wasted resources.

This was one of the big criticisms pointed out with the stimulus, the futility of it... Most of the jobs the government can create are for sectors and workers who already have jobs: scientists, engineers, accountants, etc. Not for low skill, low education workers who were unemployed. Stimulus efforts did not reach them because they are beyond help from our federal government, thats not the kind of worker that the government is well suited to hire directly or indirectly. It is also virtually impossible with free trade treaties to ensure that any kind of stimulus or government spending would only go to US factories instead of maxing out the capacity of every factory in China before a successful competitive bid by a US firm is accepted.



Commodity markets add value in that they can provide some stability for producers and consumers who need to plan business decisions months in advance to produce those commodities and plan on how they use those commodities. For example, if you are a farmer and know that you can lock in a price for your crop before you plant it you limit both the potential loss and the potential profitability.

It might look wildly volatile to outside observers but without the markets businesses which produce and purchase commodities would be flying blind in their production decisions.
Actually if you consider patients are not resources. doctors would be . The gov could pay 1) to train more doctors 2)Pay doctors more
You confuse the 2.. AFAICT..
Doing both to solve the low supply to the high demand will stimulate the economy..
You insist that it's unaffordable. Others have shown this as a fallacy..
Doing large gov projects (roads, bridges, ect to increase the infrastructure will encourage business and pay wages to also encourage business.. Again you fall back on the "who pays the bills".. Gov does w/ money they create..
It would probably take a generation to "catch up" our infrastructure to much of the "civilized world" as much as some may disagree we have been wasting trillions overseas and ignoring our own people. (look how long it took JUST for HDTV and what did that do? STIMULATE China, Japan, and S. Korea)...
The stimulus was misdirected in a large part (not the GM part BTW) as I mentioned BEFORE and most likely in MMT terms. Tell me why it would not have made more ECONOMIC sense to pay off mortgages NOT banks (who still retain the bad paper to come back later but added capital to "psychologically placate the Oligarchs.) and therefore the solution was faulty) THAT is not my fault.
QuoteQuote:
Stimulus efforts did not reach them because they are beyond help from our federal government
That does not prove stimulus is wrong just mis-directed..

As I said explain why after a decade of HUGE deficits inflation is not rampant but we face deflation....

Maybe it's too obvious to me because I allowed "doubt" creep in that "mainstream economists" really had any clue..

It hit me as a light bulb moment...

IF you believe the US is anywhere near "peak production" you have a poor concept of our economy..

Picking one thing (overproduction of cars) is futile and the whole point would be to monitor the need for individual "items" and really we are talking large scale not target markets..and r&d. I have NO DOUBT that there are massive advances in research if freed from the need to produce a sell-able products..
how about the gov paying small scale drug production (the drugs that could save small amounts of lives BUT are not "cost effective"....

I realize a lot of this is a bit "pie in the sky" BUT I accept that it is in MORE of the RIGHT DIRECTION then throttling the economy by cutting back EVERYTHING for the sake of a very ideological concept wrapped in ancient understanding..
Again, how's the UK and Europe doing w/ their "austerity" and Australia??

It's called "Cutting one's own throat"...
"Gee we took a whole bunch of cash out of the economy and wonder why it's not getting any better".. Just seems basic common sense once you remove the psychological barriers........
Inflation at 4.5%: what the analysts say | Business | guardian.co.uk
QuoteQuote:
Monetary policy will need to stay loose for an extended period to offset the impact of the major, sustained fiscal squeeze. In addition, we do believe that inflation will fall back markedly in 2012 as relatively modest, below-trend growth and elevated unemployment limits underlying inflationary pressures. In particular, ongoing substantial pressures on consumers are likely to limit both growth and inflation.
Loose money, inflation decreases???
QuoteQuote:
The governor pointed out that the economy remained weak, with the level of activity 4% below its pre-recession peak in 2008. Unemployment remains high and wage growth low.
Just drags out the pain.... AFAIKT
Inflation stays high but the Bank of England is unlikely to budge | Business | guardian.co.uk

You just have to read though a bunch of these to come to the conclusion THEY DON"T HAVE A CLUE what their doing because they only understand, at best, half of the equation......

QuoteQuote:
Power plants have idle capacity depending on the time of day and the season, should the government pay the power companies to produce power from coal and natural gas when there is no demand?
Actually why not, though it would be best to have the plant lay off and the gov pay full salary...
doesn't hurt nor help the workers. Helps the plant to be able to "save" for expansion/rebuild and since the gov "creates money" costs us nothing..
workers spend more on their off time. More stimulus..
as I said the big problem is not FISCAL but psychological....

05-17-2011, 07:26 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
Commodity markets add value
Added profits are not added value.
I know what commodity markets are supposed to do.
They don't do that anymore. Deregulation has destroyed that model.
Now they create volatile markets to drive up prices, that is inflation at it's purest.
There is a VERY real difference between prices and value.
In the end they add NOTHING to the product.

Wallstreet on the other hand VERY often forces the creation of a devalued product in order to increase profit.
Wall-Mart is a perfect example of this. Selling an inferior product at an apparent price advantage.
It's all in the marketing.
05-17-2011, 07:30 PM   #36
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My guys vs your guys mikemike
Tim Geithner Doesn't Get It - Seeking Alpha

QuoteQuote:
Of course we can afford it. We are the largest and most productive economy in the world. There is enormous demand for our currency. We have an output have you could drive a Mack Truck though. We have Harvard graduates applying for jobs at Starbucks. The amount of idle capacity is an outrage. As a nation, we can always always afford to spend in the currency we create so long as there is a productive economy that backs that currency and the USA does not lose its ability to tax that productivity.

Mr. Geithner believes interest rates are low because the risk of insolvency is low. Of course the risk of insolvency is low in the USA – because there is no insolvency risk in the USA.


And we wonder why the economy in this country is such a mess after all this time? Mr. Geithner has no clue how the system actually works. If he did, he would have taken responsibility for his part in the crisis and never taken a job that is clearly well beyond his capabilities. He would have never helped Ben Bernanke devise his great bank rescue plan which has been an utter waste of government resources and failed on all levels (except making bankers more wealthy).

Mr. Geithner might have sounded at least partially credible if he’d spent more time talking about cutting wasteful spending as opposed to letting tax cuts expire (which is an effective tax hike – the last thing the debt saddled private sector needs right now). But it’s clear Mr. Geithner doesn’t understand how a sovereign issuer of currency in a floating exchange system actually functions. He’s more worried about non-existent bond vigilantes and China as our banker (which they aren’t). Let’s just hope Geithner’s model isn’t as horribly flawed as Mr. Greenspan’s was. Unfortunately, the evidence leads me to believe it might even be worse….
QuoteQuote:
The core of Geithner’s remarks focused on identifying the major challenges facing the financial system. Geithner’s concerns reveal that his focus is not on the health of the economy; not on inflation; not on the growing tax burden facing Americans; and certainly not on whether the government will be repaid the hundreds of billions of dollars it has transferred to the financial industry. Rather, the Treasury secretary’s principal concern was the fact that major financial institutions have reported unprecedented losses.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/hearing/2009/04/macey_timothy_geithner_doesnt.html

QuoteQuote:
According to a Media Matters study of 59 network news broadcasts about the stimulus in the three weeks prior to the vote, only three mentioned concerns that the package was inadequate -- even though many economists believed it was not big enough to do the job. Another known known treated like an unknown when we most needed to know. And now, of course, we're already getting reports that the bill was, indeed, too small.

I'm not saying that everything about this crisis is knowable -- far from it. But there are a number of very simple truths that are being hidden behind a smokescreen of complexity and unknowability.

It doesn't take a Ph.D. in economics to know that you can't have CEOs whose companies have received billions in bailout funds going to court and threatening to sue employees to keep the public from knowing which executives pocketed millions in bonuses -- and you can't have them pretending that no bailout money was used to pay said bonuses.

You can't have insolvent banks pretending that the problem is one of liquidity, and then using taxpayer money to protect their balance sheets instead of lending money to credit-worthy businesses and consumers.

And, ultimately, you can't allow the same people who were part of the problem to be part of the solution. There is absolutely no way on earth that the same flawed thinking that got us into this mess will ever get us out of it. We need to clean house, taking the steering wheel away from the executives and the compliant boards that steered us over the economic cliff. They didn't get it then; they still don't get it now (see handing out bonuses, hosting spa retreats, redecorating, and throwing lavish parties while America teeters on the verge of economic collapse).

That is something we all know that we know -- even Tim Geithner and the experts at CNBC.
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/130877/why_are_tim_geithner_and_the_media..._to_our_money/

so we can afford to bail out banks but not pay citizens.. ODD

rocket scientist ...........
QuoteQuote:
I'm sure Geithner is a smart man, but I agree with Jack Biddle above that he probably doesn't understand the nature of the business. Many smart people I met don't know the difference between venture capital, private equity, hedge funds, and other types of investment funds. It can get confusing, but Geithner is our Treasury Secretary! Either he doesn't get it and needs a "Venture Capital 101" class along with "Our Nation's Greatest Wealth and Job Creation Engine 101", or his staff must be really stupid or overworked and provided very poor research to him.
http://bernardmoon.blogspot.com/2009/04/clueless-tim-geithner-says-venture.html

• In the U.S. today , 40% of children born each year are covered by Medicaid. If you are born today in hard-pressed communities in many American cities, like St. Louis or Baltimore, you are more likely to die before your first birthday than if you were born in Sri Lanka or Belarus.
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2011/05/17/geithner-offers-fiscal-facts/

Last edited by jeffkrol; 05-17-2011 at 08:44 PM.
05-17-2011, 07:32 PM   #37
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Jeff, I have been trying (or is that failing?) to understand the thrust of this thread and how the MMT and MS theories work.

I have one simple question. If all that is required to stimulate the US economy is for the gov't to print money why is there every ANY deficit? The US reserve simply credits their own bank account with enough 000's to cover the shortfall.

I'm really struggling with the concepts here. Call me an old fashioned thinker, but my understanding is that the value of a currency is a direct result of the underlying GDP divided by the amount of cash in circulation (simplified explanation) Surely just printing more money would devalue the US$ even further and exacerbate the foreign debt problem?

As to the Australian economy, when the GFC loomed on the horizon, our government spent it's $20Billion surplus (plus some) on various stimulus measures. Some say the stimulus was poorly targeted, and that may be true, but the facts are that we dodged the GFC bullet and saved tens of thousands of jobs. Unemployment is slightly under 5%, interest rates are healthy, businesses are booming. Not bad for a 'centerist' (in American terms - socialist) government.

(and having iron coal and bauxite mines the size of European countries and China as the main customer doesn't hurt either)
05-17-2011, 08:43 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by wizofoz Quote
Jeff, I have been trying (or is that failing?) to understand the thrust of this thread and how the MMT and MS theories work.

I have one simple question. If all that is required to stimulate the US economy is for the gov't to print money why is there every ANY deficit? The US reserve simply credits their own bank account with enough 000's to cover the shortfall.

I'm really struggling with the concepts here. Call me an old fashioned thinker, but my understanding is that the value of a currency is a direct result of the underlying GDP divided by the amount of cash in circulation (simplified explanation) Surely just printing more money would devalue the US$ even further and exacerbate the foreign debt problem?

As to the Australian economy, when the GFC loomed on the horizon, our government spent it's $20Billion surplus (plus some) on various stimulus measures. Some say the stimulus was poorly targeted, and that may be true, but the facts are that we dodged the GFC bullet and saved tens of thousands of jobs. Unemployment is slightly under 5%, interest rates are healthy, businesses are booming. Not bad for a 'centerist' (in American terms - socialist) government.

(and having iron coal and bauxite mines the size of European countries and China as the main customer doesn't hurt either)
Gov. deficits are private surpluses for investment.. guess is the simplest way to put it..

some may argue you running a surplus (if it ewas really a surplus) WAS a part of the problem.. Pulling money out of the private sector...

US has a crisis of identity NOT financial.......

QuoteQuote:
When reading about modern monetary theory I suggest the following procedure:
• Forget who you are.
• Forget what you think of government – good or bad – unless you are going to be able to get rid of government (that is, establish pure communism) you are stuck with it.
• Forget what you think of social policy – you may hate the unemployed or you may feel compassion – forget all emotions.
• Forget what nation you live in – it doesn’t matter.
• Forget all prior economic concepts and training (if any).
• Then just try to understand what you read.
Bill Mitchell1
Miss, what happens if the government just makes lots and lots of money, more than it takes in taxes?
Moneypenny
The Government has a deficit. Some of that money will be immediately saved by the private sector as we talked about yesterday.
The extra money that isn’t saved will be used to buy various things. This will lead to more things being bought and sold, or if there is no way people can make more things then the prices of things will rise.
If people aren’t working as much as they’d like, or if factories aren’t working as fast as they can then the extra spending will most probably be a good thing.
All of the deficit will be sitting in somebody’s bank account at all times, so represents net financial assets of the private sector.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=8&ved=0CEIQFjAH&url=http%3A%2F%...E7f2bQ&cad=rja
http://mq.academia.edu/FrankAshe/Papers/132779/Kindergarten_Guide_to_Modern_...Theory_-_Day_2


Last edited by jeffkrol; 05-17-2011 at 08:53 PM.
05-17-2011, 08:57 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
The stimulus was misdirected in a large part (not the GM part BTW) as I mentioned BEFORE and most likely in MMT terms. Tell me why it would not have made more ECONOMIC sense to pay off mortgages NOT banks (who still retain the bad paper to come back later but added capital to "psychologically placate the Oligarchs.) and therefore the solution was faulty) THAT is not my fault.
Paying off the mortgages of NINJnA liar loans makes no sense justice wise. It rewards people for doing the wrong thing. It would also make the same amount of ECONOMIC sense to allow drunk drivers to keep their cars and drive home after running someone over and just issue them a court summons instead of arresting them, booking them, and impounding their car.

QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Actually why not, though it would be best to have the plant lay off and the gov pay full salary...
doesn't hurt nor help the workers. Helps the plant to be able to "save" for expansion/rebuild and since the gov "creates money" costs us nothing..
Except for the pollution caused by running those plants to produce electricity no one wants and the impact of increased demand on the commodity markets for fossil fuels.

QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Actually if you consider patients are not resources. doctors would be . The gov could pay 1) to train more doctors 2)Pay doctors more
You confuse the 2.. AFAICT..
No, I know that the doctors, nurses, and hospitals are the resources. The medical professionals are already overworked and there is no slack and while you might be able to motivate them to work longer hours for more pay, we will hit a wall of diminishing returns pretty quickly there as medical errors increase and they are upset that they never get a chance to enjoy that money. Training more doctors isn't something that can be done that easily, only a very small percentage of the population has the capacity to serve society in that role. I would say it is virtually impossible to train an unemployed 55 year old factory worker bee with a high school education to be a doctor.
05-17-2011, 10:01 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
NINJnA liar loans
Still using the right wing terms? Or is that the one marketed by the mortgage lobbies?
This whole housing thing was discussed here a long time ago.
before you came here.
That term is patently FALSE.
We would have been better off paying them off from the bottom up.
From the top down.....................NEVER worked.
NEVER will.

By the way.......Who doesn't want electricity?
05-17-2011, 10:19 PM   #41
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QuoteQuote:
Kindergarten Guide to Modern Monetary Theory - Day 2 (Frank Ashe) - Academia.edu[/url]
Thanks for this Jeff.

I have been to kindergarten.
05-18-2011, 05:11 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
Paying off the mortgages of NINJnA liar loans makes no sense justice wise. It rewards people for doing the wrong thing. It would also make the same amount of ECONOMIC sense to allow drunk drivers to keep their cars and drive home after running someone over and just issue them a court summons instead of arresting them, booking them, and impounding their car.
Mike, that is a right wing talking point that blames the victim. You keep trying to blame people who were foreclosed upon for this when they did what every single expert told them to do. Comparing not understanding the mountain of paper shoved under your nose at a real estate closing or the public failing to understand Credit Default Swaps with drunk driving is really inappropriate.

Five years ago, everyone from the banks to the government to the real estate professionals to the financial advisor to the media told you to refinance or buy. It is like blaming the victim when their doctor prescribes a drug that kills them. Handling the default in a way that does not harm the victim, but may devalue the perpetrators makes more sense. If anything, the approach you are taking blames the drivers of the other cars in a thirty car pile up on the highway caused by a drunk driver.

Last edited by GeneV; 05-18-2011 at 06:21 AM.
05-18-2011, 05:53 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
Paying off the mortgages of NINJnA liar loans makes no sense justice wise. It rewards people for doing the wrong thing. It would also make the same amount of ECONOMIC sense to allow drunk drivers to keep their cars and drive home after running someone over and just issue them a court summons instead of arresting them, booking them, and impounding their car.
JUSTICE???? Don't make me laugh.. Look around. Anyways I said it was psychological..
DWI thing is not even close.
QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
Except for the pollution caused by running those plants to produce electricity no one wants and the impact of increased demand on the commodity markets for fossil fuels.
I didn't say they had to be run, just have the Fed pay the workers at slack time ie. low/no generation.. FULL pay unemployment from day one.You seem to be missing the point. It's like gov paying for "vacation time' freeing up capital for priv. industry and not making them suffer the burden of "underemployment".


QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
No, I know that the doctors, nurses, and hospitals are the resources. The medical professionals are already overworked and there is no slack and while you might be able to motivate them to work longer hours for more pay, we will hit a wall of diminishing returns pretty quickly there as medical errors increase and they are upset that they never get a chance to enjoy that money. Training more doctors isn't something that can be done that easily, only a very small percentage of the population has the capacity to serve society in that role. I would say it is virtually impossible to train an unemployed 55 year old factory worker bee with a high school education to be a doctor.
Their overworked because there's a shortage.. increase "resources" and there not overworked..
Actually I think you are short changing Americans...
We have a shortage of doctors because it's bloody expensive to become one and the returns are nowhere near CEO pay...

no your not getting it because your still stuck emotionally in fiscal "right and wrong"

The mortgage thing is a brilliant idea and after a few years people would start to forget their neighbor got their house for free..
Banks would have cleared ALL that bad paper that they were TOO HAPPY to accept and they could start all over issuing "home equity" loans. It would completely end the mortgage crisis....New flush homeowners would be mmore then willing to improve their home bringing up property values and tax revenues..

Won't happen because of "user emotional error"

So where is the justice in punishing ALL of us for the bank/bond rating/investors sin????

to make it "fair" we could demand that the banks take payment at FACE value not projected payout.. though in MMT terms it wouldn't make much of a difference. In Capitalistic terms it would be "unfair" because the banks "deserve" they 10-30 of interest.. JUSTICE???? Don't make me laugh.
05-18-2011, 06:05 AM   #44
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Mikemike.. to make you happy I would exclude "investment property" and anything other then owner occupied. I believe you would find that would cut down the "injustice" considerably.
THOUGH those too would have to be looked at and a separate "system" created..

I just want the "small peoples" playing field being fixed a bit ..
05-18-2011, 06:31 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
No, I know that the doctors, nurses, and hospitals are the resources. The medical professionals are already overworked and there is no slack and while you might be able to motivate them to work longer hours for more pay, we will hit a wall of diminishing returns pretty quickly there as medical errors increase and they are upset that they never get a chance to enjoy that money. Training more doctors isn't something that can be done that easily, only a very small percentage of the population has the capacity to serve society in that role. I would say it is virtually impossible to train an unemployed 55 year old factory worker bee with a high school education to be a doctor.
Hospitals are closing and consolidating in my part of the world. That would indicate to me that there is excess or artificially limited capacity.

Actually, I do think that training more doctors could be done more easily. We have created the most difficult to enter and most remunerative medical profession in the world. It does not need to cost a quarter of a million dollars in debt to go to medical school. It does not cost that much in any other country. Pre-med does not need to be a cutthroat exercise. Residency does not need to involve 36 hour shifts. You may not be able to retrain every factory worker, but there are certainly a lot of other professionals who would make good doctors.

In addition, MDs are doing less and less and Nurse Practitioners and Physician's Assistants are doing more.
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