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05-20-2011, 07:07 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
I have very little sympathy .....
I think you could have stopped there. I've not seen you post anything that expressed sympathy for anyone, but perhaps I wasn't looking.

Again, generalization after generalization about employment laws, with nothing to back that up. Now, why don't you tell us about the McDonald's coffee case. Isn't that every tort case?

05-20-2011, 07:14 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
I am saying that instead of supporting tightening eligibility or eliminating programs placing the burden of proof that someone who is enrolled now still needs the aide they are receiving, they would rather say, "oh yeah that guy is abusing the system but hes the only one."
Ok. Punish offenders.

Although liberal I am no fan of free lunch; workfare beats welfare by far - even "makework" is better than no work.

The media loves sob stories as well as sex stories. Such stories are spun either way to involve consumers at an emotional level. Either way society is entertained rather that informed.

You give the impression that what's reported makes your blood boil; if so they have won!
05-20-2011, 07:15 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by newarts Quote
Ok. Punish offenders.

Although liberal I am no fan of free lunch; workfare beats welfare by far - even "makework" is better than no work.

The media loves sob stories as well as sex stories. Such stories are spun either way to involve consumers at an emotional level. Either way society is entertained rather that informed.

You give the impression that what's reported makes your blood boil; if so they have won!
Exactly. We don't talk about abolishing grocery stores because people shoplift. We go after the shoplifters.
05-20-2011, 07:24 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
Who are these "liberals" who cast people as heroes for bilking the system? Viacom --owner of Teen Mom? Sumner Redstone?
Executive producer(s)
Morgan J. Freeman - Donated $2300 to Barack Obama (Morgan Freeman Campaign Contributions and Donations -- Huffington Post)
Liz Gateley
Lauren Dolgen
Producer(s)
Kenda Greenwood

Sumner Redstone seems to spread his donations around a little bit but most of his go to Democrats too. $4600 for hillary, 3000 for Kerry, 2300 for Rudy, and $1500 for David Dreier.

Sumner Redstone Campaign Contributions and Donations -- Huffington Post

I guess by your logic, Fox News and Rupert Murdoch are totally neutral too.

05-20-2011, 07:42 AM   #20
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So we've established that all those low-income freeloading crooks and goons will have to fend for themselves.

Can we get back to the OP?
05-20-2011, 08:18 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
I am saying that instead of supporting tightening eligibility or eliminating programs placing the burden of proof that someone who is enrolled now still needs the aide they are receiving, they would rather say, "oh yeah that guy is abusing the system but hes the only one."
NOBODY ever implied anything like that.. CARE to quote the corporate fraud rampant in Medicare payments?.. Wonder if Mr. Paul ever did any double dipping or padding services...

Anyways the point is EVERY system needs slack or it is ineffective...
BALANCE needs to be achieved between loose enough to be effective, tight enough to eliminate egregious fraud..
"Professionals" will always find a way around anything..
One has to just accept it......
05-20-2011, 08:20 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote

I have very little sympathy for stupid and lazy adults or those who hold them up on a pedestal.

Does that include fat, stupid,lazy people who just happen to be born into wealth?????????

You know, completely worthless contributor to society..

I have a feeling you exempt or envy them........

05-20-2011, 11:04 AM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffkrol Quote
Anyways the point is EVERY system needs slack or it is ineffective...
BALANCE needs to be achieved between loose enough to be effective, tight enough to eliminate egregious fraud..
"Professionals" will always find a way around anything..
One has to just accept it......
Even when systems and databases are put in place to track people with a history of gaming the system, there is push back against using those for purposes where they might be suited, usually from either liberal administrations or liberal press outlets.

Case in point, pushes to restrict or eliminate the use of credit reports as a proxy for decision making ability and reliability for screening job applicants. The Obama EEOC is looking into it after being pushed by the press and left wing non-profits.\
Eeoc Looking Into Credit Scores In Hiring - Capital - Portfolio.com

Or fighting to get sex offenders onto the welfare rolls.
Sex Crimes In New Orleans, Separate And Unequal

Then there are cases like with illegal immigrants where they want it both ways, we want a system to keep them from getting hired with false docs, but we don't want employers to use the system because it might have false positives then we want to prosecute the businesses for hiring illegals and not the illegals for lying in their job applications... Oh by the way, we don't want to deport the illegal immigrants, we don't want them to take our jobs, but we might want to grant them citizenship so they can take jobs or at least they can get on the welfare rolls legally and vote for democrats. I think this one might be an issue with the "big tent" being too big.

QuoteOriginally posted by newarts:
I'm seeking concrete examples of what may likely happen.

Like cut-rate, for-profit education businesses will boom.
Illegal drug activity will boom to provide income at the low end and to ease personal frustration of users.
Urban & rural violence threats will increase; this will make private security business good (body/property guards etc..)
"Learn photography to make money on your own" businesses will thrive... those taking such courses will not.
If they have got the business skills and discipline to open sell drugs, why can't they open up their own legitimate business and create their own job? We are talking about good, law-abiding, hard working people, right?

We haven't seen any uptick in violence during the recession so I don't see why we would have one in the case of cut spending.
05-20-2011, 11:51 AM   #24
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didn't answer this one..........
QuoteQuote:
Does that include fat, stupid,lazy people who just happen to be born into wealth?????????

You know, completely worthless contributor to society..
Every society had dead weight it is impossible to eliminate it..
I do RESENT when you believe by supporting a system you support the abusers.. JUST is not true, but as I said, tighter the system the more dysfunctional it becomes in achieving it's goal, whatever that is..............

FACE it you are not really arguing to FIX a system, just eliminate it..
05-20-2011, 12:02 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by newarts Quote
Ok. Punish offenders.

Although liberal I am no fan of free lunch; workfare beats welfare by far - even "makework" is better than no work.
True enough, in terms of preferences: *as* someone who's been disabled and close to if not on the streets, though, the reality of most of these 'workfare' programs tends to not live up to promises: it's occasionally cheap labor for some fly-by-night operations, but the public expense to *administer* it means it's basically the state providing labor at a fifth of minimum wage, and it costing *more* than just either paying people or hiring them for some real, if not living, wages would be.

And it still puts the same burdens of full employment on most people doing it when a just plain light manufacturing job would do better. Even at paying the rent. This is why these programs tend to not work as top-down solutions. (They're actually sometimes *great* for very-mentally-disabled people, really, but economically-speaking, they're still a creche providing cheap labor at big public expense: I just happen to think it's worth it to them, cause they're usually just proud as Hel to be there, and I wouldn't take that away. )


And part of it is, really, there's a lot of people like *me* out there: with chronic conditions that mean we just can't 'compete,' even in the burger-flipping market, but that doesn't mean we can't do *anything.* (And in a way it's as galling to be treated as 'useless' as it is to have someone say 'Get a job,' you say, 'Then hire me,' then have them say, 'Not *here,* ...'

And that tends to catch us between two adversarial systems: one that they'll try and starve you out of if you're not totally-non-functional (Which has a tendency to make one just so: malnutrition, stress, and lack of health care can take the wind out of even the most-highly-motivated, ) ...and the capitalist one, which wants you to live by *their* time and expectations, even if some days you just *can't* function, and pushing onesself to collapse for a few weeks just doesn't constitute 'Employability.'










QuoteQuote:
The media loves sob stories as well as sex stories. Such stories are spun either way to involve consumers at an emotional level. Either way society is entertained rather that informed.

You give the impression that what's reported makes your blood boil; if so they have won!

This is where that whole 'Find a 'sinner' to moralize about the whole system as though it's all a failure of some personal morality' ' mentality just doesn't work. Gods know if that 'adult baby' is someone with major learning disabilities or just some kind of infantilist, but either way I think that may be one of the manifold symptoms of something being more messed-up than holding noses to grindstones (That perhaps don't even exist) will solve.
05-20-2011, 12:18 PM   #26
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QuoteQuote:
QuoteQuote:
Originally posted by newarts:
I'm seeking concrete examples of what may likely happen.

Like cut-rate, for-profit education businesses will boom.
Illegal drug activity will boom to provide income at the low end and to ease personal frustration of users.
Urban & rural violence threats will increase; this will make private security business good (body/property guards etc..)
"Learn photography to make money on your own" businesses will thrive... those taking such courses will not.
If they have got the business skills and discipline to open sell drugs, why can't they open up their own legitimate business and create their own job? We are talking about good, law-abiding, hard working people, right?
As spending is reduced there will not only be fewer jobs available & fewer people with money to buy goods and services, there will also be less capital available to fund new enterprise. The enterprises that will spring up will be those with low investment, overhead, and operating costs..... Taco stands, massage parlors, drug sales, rag pickers, off the books stuff in general.

Abiding by law is secondary to a hungry person.
05-20-2011, 12:38 PM   #27
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QuoteQuote:
QuoteQuote:
Originally posted by newarts:
Ok. Punish offenders.

Although liberal I am no fan of free lunch; workfare beats welfare by far - even "makework" is better than no work.
True enough, in terms of preferences: *as* someone who's been disabled and close to if not on the streets, though, the reality of most of these 'workfare' programs tends to not live up to promises: it's occasionally cheap labor for some fly-by-night operations, but the public expense to *administer* it means it's basically the state providing labor at a fifth of minimum wage, and it costing *more* than just either paying people or hiring them for some real, if not living, wages would be.

And it still puts the same burdens of full employment on most people doing it when a just plain light manufacturing job would do better. Even at paying the rent. This is why these programs tend to not work as top-down solutions. (They're actually sometimes *great* for very-mentally-disabled people, really, but economically-speaking, they're still a creche providing cheap labor at big public expense: I just happen to think it's worth it to them, cause they're usually just proud as Hel to be there, and I wouldn't take that away. )
Yes the reality is that most do not live up to promises; perhaps alternative approaches should be sought. I believe that life on the dole by those who could otherwise contribute to society is not in our long run best interests.

No I don't know how to find better ways. Perhaps community child care centers staffed by part-time workfare people? Contributions of time to our educational system in exchange for food stamps? Parks & Recs services?

You say... but the public expense to *administer* it means it's basically the state providing labor at a fifth of minimum wage, and it costing *more* than just either paying people or hiring them for some real, if not living, wages would be.

I'm not sure about the "costing more" part if you take the entire economy into account. But the alternative of just handing out a free ride to all comers doesn't seem wise in the long run.

Last edited by newarts; 05-20-2011 at 12:43 PM.
05-20-2011, 12:38 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by newarts Quote
As spending is reduced there will not only be fewer jobs available & fewer people with money to buy goods and services, there will also be less capital available to fund new enterprise. The enterprises that will spring up will be those with low investment, overhead, and operating costs..... Taco stands, massage parlors, drug sales, rag pickers, off the books stuff in general.

Abiding by law is secondary to a hungry person.

Far less so to an *ambitious* one without prospects. We should know by now that all 'entepreneurs' are necessarily *honest.* Same 'morality' as those 'ultra-rich,' a pimp or drug dealer uses, just a different economy. It's why I chose trashpicking. You can work nights and sleep well... Sometimes.

If I did any crimes, it was in a Robin Hood sort of way. I suppose that may be the relatively-privileged upbringing, though. Or Wiccan ethics, really. Not everything illegal hurts someone. There's respecting the law and then there's letting someone use it to hurt people.

Dealers? Not so unlike more-socially-sanctioned capitalists, really.
05-20-2011, 12:55 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by newarts Quote
Yes the reality is that most do not live up to promises; perhaps alternative approaches should be sought. I believe that life on the dole by those who could otherwise contribute to society is not in our long run best interests.

No I don't know how to find better ways. Perhaps community child care centers staffed by part-time workfare people? Contributions of time to our educational system in exchange for food stamps? Parks & Recs services?

The solution there is actually just not what some want to hear: though it does fall in line with the slogan 'A Hand Up, Not A Hand Out.'

That actually means, not expecting that people do better if squeezed harder, but reducing liabilities over the long term by providing *enough* in a targeted way when someone can really use it. (And again, public health care would take the biggest expense as well as the biggest cause of downward mobility off the table, just like that, both on the employer's end and on the workers' end)


For a lot of people, problems become crises become patterns become *your life.*


I didn't have to become this sick, this worn-out, this ...generally-traumatized. A little *more* help early-on would have probably kept me off the street, but that's not how it came down. I so very nearly made it, I could taste it, too.


One pair of related catastrophes, (And a certain amount of bigotry, too) and it really took decades from me, not all of it even 'on the dole' ...by the time I got anything, actually, I was a *lot* sicker and more damaged than I had to be. A safe place to live and some food at the *right time* and I'd have been more like the Ivy League material I'd started out being.


Even a freaking athsma inhaler instead of over-the-counter epinehrine, never mind two bucks worth of amoxycillin when I needed it, would probably mean I could work through most of a day now: (That stuff'll shred your adrenal cortices, never mind if you've already got latent conditions, but if you can't breathe....) In trying to cheap out according to some 'work ethic,' a lot of people *really believe* it's just a matter of *morals* and not just *keeping breathing.* I don't even know what I *ate* for some years. I'm guessing it probably wasn't enough. People moralize and just don't want to accept that it's *not* just a matter of morals or capitalistic drive or 'willpower.' I've never faulted the gifts of the Mother about my natural endurance, but some things *do* exact their toll. Some things don't 'undo' just cause someone says they should.

Sometimes it needs to be an *actual hand up,* not the most miserly 'handout' if any that seems politically-feasible. Sometimes *Enough at the right time* could be a lot better than 'Not enough for a long time.'

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 05-20-2011 at 01:03 PM.
05-20-2011, 05:01 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikemike Quote
Executive producer(s)
Morgan J. Freeman - Donated $2300 to Barack Obama (Morgan Freeman Campaign Contributions and Donations -- Huffington Post)
Liz Gateley
Lauren Dolgen
Producer(s)
Kenda Greenwood

Sumner Redstone seems to spread his donations around a little bit but most of his go to Democrats too. $4600 for hillary, 3000 for Kerry, 2300 for Rudy, and $1500 for David Dreier.

Sumner Redstone Campaign Contributions and Donations -- Huffington Post

I guess by your logic, Fox News and Rupert Murdoch are totally neutral too.
Nope. That conclusion has nothing to do with asking the question about Sumner Redstone.
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