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06-06-2011, 12:29 PM   #31
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Ragmagiclady...

I think what you're talking about is exactly in line with what I am also saying, though in a slightly different way perhaps (even if you're not on Facebook and don't want to be). There IS a middle ground that so many fail to consider. You can be on Facebook and be yourself and also protect your privacy. The motto I teach my children is that if you wouldn't go out in the street and broadcast it from a large soapbox at the top of your lungs, then don't post it on Facebook.

However, they can still be individuals... and interesting people... and march to the beat of their own drum. Hell, if you saw my FB profile picture, you'd see I do too. And I'm that way in the real-world also (just ask the executives at my job, LOL). However, the things that need to stay in my personal life, in private, can absolutely remain that way. I didn't suddenly become a self-exploitive, drunken voyeur because I hit "sign up" on facebook.com.

I'm not suggesting it's true here in this argument or in the members on this forum, but so far, in my personal life the people who want to avoid Facebook are either a) way too worried about what everyone else thinks of them - and maybe even a bit paranoid; or b) have something fairly serious to hide (philanderers in most cases). Quite honestly, FB is pretty innocuous if you conduct yourself like even a semi-moral human being. Even if you're as unique as a square-shaped circle.

06-06-2011, 12:43 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by DRabbit Quote
Ragmagiclady...

I think what you're talking about is exactly in line with what I am also saying, though in a slightly different way perhaps (even if you're not on Facebook and don't want to be). There IS a middle ground that so many fail to consider. You can be on Facebook and be yourself and also protect your privacy. The motto I teach my children is that if you wouldn't go out in the street and broadcast it from a large soapbox at the top of your lungs, then don't post it on Facebook.

However, they can still be individuals... and interesting people... and march to the beat of their own drum. Hell, if you saw my FB profile picture, you'd see I do too. And I'm that way in the real-world also (just ask the executives at my job, LOL). However, the things that need to stay in my personal life, in private, can absolutely remain that way. I didn't suddenly become a self-exploitive, drunken voyeur because I hit "sign up" on facebook.com.

I'm not suggesting it's true here in this argument or in the members on this forum, but so far, in my personal life the people who want to avoid Facebook are either a) way too worried about what everyone else thinks of them - and maybe even a bit paranoid; or b) have something fairly serious to hide (philanderers in most cases). Quite honestly, FB is pretty innocuous if you conduct yourself like even a semi-moral human being. Even if you're as unique as a square-shaped circle.
Sure. It's just that people may negotiate this in different ways, is all: some of them, indeed, by not being on FB at all. (Freakin thing cokes up my browser on an hourly basis as it is, anyway)

I do think it would be good for PF to not *require* it: Some people love it, some people hate it, and some people are a little nervous about it, and why put PF in the place of pushing it. It probably won't even *affect* people who aren't here yet. Whereas, those of us who are here, pretty much aren't going anywhere.

I'd suggest not making it a requirement. Anyone who may find us through FB probably only needs a little 'Come here, come *this* way.* And there's nothing wrong with *that,* I suppose, they can choose their ways too, everyone happy, all that. (And, again, I'm totally fine, either way. I don't need an incentive to be here. )

Last edited by Ratmagiclady; 06-06-2011 at 12:49 PM.
06-06-2011, 12:48 PM   #33
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Well, it's off topic a bit here, but the idea of making it a requirements is so that NEW people can become aware of PentaxForums and B&H. Contests are almost always about marketing your wares, whether that be a free service like here, or paid products like B&H offers. It's all about spreading the word... and they told two friends, who also told two friends... and so on.

So it doesn't at all bother me it's a requirement. It's the price of admission... and a fairly simple one at that. A community that doesn't want new members is a community that dies. This isn't an exclusive pay-to-play club. The way sites like this spread the word these days is through venues like Facebook... so the requirement makes sense. Don't like it, don't participate. Simple as that.
06-06-2011, 01:06 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
Actually, I don't even like seeing my face in a family photo album. Any friend of mine that posts any pic of me sans my permission anywhere won't be for long, and btw, they know that. I'm far too smart to get caught with my panties down online. ;P But that's my point, I don't choose to parade my whole life on a Facebook page, because I am a very private type person, and sensible when it comes to where my personal stuff goes.
Well you have no control over what others post on their FB pages, so if they're the type to post photos of their friends with their pants down, that's gonna happen anyway.

I dislike how I look in photos as well, but as a tool to share family photos with whom I choose on the network it actually does a good job of it. But that's as far as I take it myself.

QuoteOriginally posted by DRabbit:
I often say Facebook is rather narcissistic. Of course, it's also what you make of it. I make an effort to look and participate with other photographers there, not just post my own stuff. I've met some great people that way.
As it is with this very forum.

QuoteOriginally posted by DRabbit:
This is my problem with the overwhelming number of arguments against FB... as if you have no choices on how to act there once you've registered. That's like saying, "well I'm not going to go into a supermarket because then I'll be forced to buy junkfood, because you know, they make it widely available". Guess what, don't buy the junk food. You don't HAVE to.
Agreed.


Last edited by Ash; 06-06-2011 at 04:13 PM.
06-07-2011, 07:23 AM   #35
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I missed some of this before, so wanted to reply...

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
Actually, I don't even like seeing my face in a family photo album. Any friend of mine that posts any pic of me sans my permission anywhere won't be for long, and btw, they know that. I'm far too smart to get caught with my panties down online. ;P But that's my point, I don't choose to parade my whole life on a Facebook page, because I am a very private type person, and sensible when it comes to where my personal stuff goes.
You do realize that if you aren't on facebook you'll have no idea if people are posting photos of you, correct? Also, there IS a middle-ground. Just because you sign up, it doesn't mean you have to "parade your whole life on a Facebook page." It doesn't eliminate or annihilate your ability to be sensible. They are not mutually exclusive.

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
Many people today aren't though. They talk on the phone about the most sensitive things in public, post their children's pics, their full names etc online. They stupidly tell everyone when they going on vacation online and then cry when they come back to find their house has been burgled.
I actually agree with you. I think people blabbing away on their cellphones in the middle of the supermarket isn't just stupid, but self-centered and rude. I don't use my last name on Facebook. I only post photos of my kids that are viewable by my friends (and sometimes not all of them - yes, you can do that). I never post about going on vacation... only when I return. I never "check in" (where I am, on a map) and advise my loved-ones to avoid doing that too. I have my profile fairly locked down, so only FRIENDS can see what I post... not "friends of friends" or "networks".

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
Common sense is a bit less prevalent than it used to be it seems. People who get into this habit of showing off everything they can get careless about it. You're right it's not Facebook that's the problem, it's the people USING it that need to think hard about "how" they are doing it sometimes.
Agree... and I suggest a lot of it is parents who are not familiar with it. WE - our generation - didn't grow up with it, so we're in the dark about it (not me, but many of us "old-timers"). You have to TEACH your kids how to act. There's a big disconnect going on there because parents are still learning themselves how to act online.

However, how other's act there certainly doesn't dictate how YOU act there. You can make the choice to act appropriately.

And as an aside, at least so far, with most of the people I'm friends with on Facebook, I have yet to see anything really offensive of even self-deprecating. MOST people who I'm friends with seem to share and post pretty innocuous stuff... and I've even got some teenagers as friends (my daughter's friends). It may be a little inane, but nothing I'd call their parents over

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
I avoid it because I don't feel the need to have all that up there front and center for millions to potentially see. I'm not at all ashamed of how I live my life, but there are things, and I'm sure this applies to almost anyone, that I'd be fine with my friends knowing that I wouldn't be as okay with having an employer know.

You never know what other people might not like. Something as simple as a choice of an alternative religion for example or maybe supporting a certain cause or having ideals that an employer doesn't like for some reason just might cost you a job.
Again, you do realize you have a choice what to share and not, correct?
I rarely (if ever) talk politics or religion on Facebook. Geez, I rarely TALK politics or religion in the real-world unless I know the crowd I'm with can have a reasonable conversation about it. I had my boss, the CEO of the company, corner me about religion once... and man, let me tell you, that was a bizarre conversation. And that was in real-life, not on Facebook!

As I said earlier, being on Facebook doesn't mean your immediately have to compromise all you feelings on privacy -- you don't HAVE to share anything you don't want to. That's like saying that you won't do email because you can't believe that people email photos of themselves to each other. Facebook is merely a communication medium, and you choose what to communicate. It's no different that being registered here, than using email, or than having an online photo gallery. Just because SOME people have chosen to be exceptionally transparent doesn't mean you have to choose to be.
06-07-2011, 07:41 AM   #36
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I thought about participating in the contest. but then had second thoughts because of joining facebook. I also realized I wouldn't win so I'll skip it. Now if the contest was for "bad photography"... I most likely would join.

Actually, I'll most likely join because of family / friends..but I'm still not ready. I don't know why it takes me a while to visit/dismiss the idea of joining. I mean, it doesn't take me long to discuss/dismiss my compulsive buying online (LBA/CBA).
06-07-2011, 07:50 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by EyeSpy Quote
I thought about participating in the contest. but then had second thoughts because of joining facebook. I also realized I wouldn't win so I'll skip it. Now if the contest was for "bad photography"... I most likely would join.

.
Actually, you have as much chance of winning as anyone else. My understanding is that, with the current comp, the photo submission gives you a ticket in the draw and the winner isn't judged on the photo. I think you need to like both the Pentaxforum Facebook page and B&H photographics (they are the sponsor) Facebook page.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
06-07-2011, 08:14 AM - 1 Like   #38
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I can see both sides of this argument.

On one hand here's PF and B&H trying to get something out of this world Pentax day thing. Which isn't entirely unreasonable, everyday I drive to work I hear radio stations doing the same thing "you have to like us on FB first". FB is all about marketing - and marketers love FB because the best recommendation you can have is one from people's friends. If I remember rightly the average number of FB friends is 100 or so, so by PF & B+H getting 250 people to like them on FB that's exposure to a constituency of about 25,000 potential purchasers (B+H) or new users (PF). Which isn't too shabby in terms of a marketing campaign that just costs a few 100$ (whatever the lens cost is). I'm used to calculations like this being a professional marketer myself.

On the other hand nobody likes being told to recommend something to your friends as a condition of entering some competition. Personally I don't enter competitions like that because I value my friends too much to sell out my opinion for some competition. It's just not the way I swing. I don't know the first thing about B&H - I've never shopped there and being on the other side of the pond and I most probably never will. I'm sure they're very fine peoples. But I wouldn't pretend to like someone without any actual experience to back it up. Especially as my friends know me as a photography geek, so it will influence where they buy.

Anyhow this 'mandatory FB' thing is a bit of a storm in a teacup, because there's an alternative. Looking over the original rules it seems like the entry is either like us on FB OR follow us on Twitter.

QuoteQuote:
- Participate in World Pentax Day like you would normally! Have fun out there, and show some spirit!
- "Like" PentaxForums AND B&H Photo on Facebook, or choose to follow B&H Photo Video and Pentax Forums on Twitter.
- Post a thread in this hyperlinked forum with the following information (requires you to register first):
The number of photos you submitted for World Pentax Day
The Facebook user name which you used to "Like" our Facebook or Twitter pages
For those of you who have a problem with FB, it takes about 1 minute to make a new twitter account and follow someone. And it's not nearly as intrusive on your rl friendships - ie it's not like FB which, once you 'like' something, tells all your friends about it too. Whilst you're at it follow me too.

Fwiw, I'm not FB hater, it's a great tool to keep in touch with people going back 25 years for me, all over the world. We all laugh at the ads together because they're so stupidly targeted. Like when I got told to try out as a cheerleader, doh =). I'm very careful about what's public and what's just my friends though. And, EVERY 12 year old I know through my son's class has a FB account, my son included. It's part of 21st century life (or it will be until the next big web thing comes along).

06-07-2011, 08:20 AM   #39
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Yeah I realize I have a choice, of course, and that's why I choose to exercise it. To watch what I say online, what I do, what I post. This is why I don't just post pics of myself online all over the place like some people do and tell everything I do all the time on Twitter.

My friends, they tend to have a clue. Good, real friends don't post pics of you without asking and while I may not be on Facebook, a lot people I know are, and I can assure you I'd find out and fairly quickly too.

I'm not just talking about myself and what "I" do. I'm not most people and I am fully aware of that. But I've had a friend or two get in trouble for posting certain stuff online.

One friend got herself fired for finally admitting she was gay online, for posting pics of herself and her partner online. It was a brave move on her part finally coming out. She worked for a religious outfit that was actively anti-gay, and she knew that it likely might cost her her job, but she did it anyway. Because she just couldn't hide that part of her life anymore. Nonetheless the people that fired her definitely did so in direct answer to her coming out and because of her Facebook pics.

I also had someone who I knew who was being stalked by an ex put back in jeopardy because some idiot friend of hers posted pics of her in a group in a club situation. Her ex used info from someone else's account to connect with the right group of friends, realized what club they were going to and accosted her there. Fortunately he didn't have a gun and he didn't make a move on her in public. He harassed her but that was it, no fists, this time.

No, it's not Facebook that's the problem, it's the people using it that you have to worry about...



QuoteOriginally posted by DRabbit Quote
I missed some of this before, so wanted to reply...



You do realize that if you aren't on facebook you'll have no idea if people are posting photos of you, correct? Also, there IS a middle-ground. Just because you sign up, it doesn't mean you have to "parade your whole life on a Facebook page." It doesn't eliminate or annihilate your ability to be sensible. They are not mutually exclusive.



I actually agree with you. I think people blabbing away on their cellphones in the middle of the supermarket isn't just stupid, but self-centered and rude. I don't use my last name on Facebook. I only post photos of my kids that are viewable by my friends (and sometimes not all of them - yes, you can do that). I never post about going on vacation... only when I return. I never "check in" (where I am, on a map) and advise my loved-ones to avoid doing that too. I have my profile fairly locked down, so only FRIENDS can see what I post... not "friends of friends" or "networks".



Agree... and I suggest a lot of it is parents who are not familiar with it. WE - our generation - didn't grow up with it, so we're in the dark about it (not me, but many of us "old-timers"). You have to TEACH your kids how to act. There's a big disconnect going on there because parents are still learning themselves how to act online.

However, how other's act there certainly doesn't dictate how YOU act there. You can make the choice to act appropriately.

And as an aside, at least so far, with most of the people I'm friends with on Facebook, I have yet to see anything really offensive of even self-deprecating. MOST people who I'm friends with seem to share and post pretty innocuous stuff... and I've even got some teenagers as friends (my daughter's friends). It may be a little inane, but nothing I'd call their parents over



Again, you do realize you have a choice what to share and not, correct?
I rarely (if ever) talk politics or religion on Facebook. Geez, I rarely TALK politics or religion in the real-world unless I know the crowd I'm with can have a reasonable conversation about it. I had my boss, the CEO of the company, corner me about religion once... and man, let me tell you, that was a bizarre conversation. And that was in real-life, not on Facebook!

As I said earlier, being on Facebook doesn't mean your immediately have to compromise all you feelings on privacy -- you don't HAVE to share anything you don't want to. That's like saying that you won't do email because you can't believe that people email photos of themselves to each other. Facebook is merely a communication medium, and you choose what to communicate. It's no different that being registered here, than using email, or than having an online photo gallery. Just because SOME people have chosen to be exceptionally transparent doesn't mean you have to choose to be.
06-07-2011, 08:35 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nass Quote

On the other hand nobody likes being told to recommend something to your friends as a condition of entering some competition. Personally I don't enter competitions like that because I value my friends too much to sell out my opinion for some competition.
I can't see where it says you have to "recommend" anything to anyone. You "like" a page in the same way you might like a sports or community group. You mainly do that so you get posts from them on your wall for your own information. That usually goes mostly unnoticed by others (I get likes from my neice and nephew by the dozen each day and they are mostly likes for sayings they find funny).
For a business it's a way of knowing what their latest deals are and subscribing to a virtual catalogue. It's very different from some of the competitions where you get a pop-up that accesses your friends list and then "suggests" you check boxes and places posts on your friends walls for all of their friends to see. I avoid those like the plague.
The promoter (B&H) wants exposure and they will get some. They would also like to expose you to the offers they have. That's totally understandable. Whether you enter is your choice as well as it is your choice, after the competition or before, to remove your "like" if the information you get on your wall as a result of liking their page is not to your liking. Nobody else sees that - they just see your initial like.
06-07-2011, 08:41 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nass Quote
...On the other hand nobody likes being told to recommend something to your friends as a condition of entering some competition. Personally I don't enter competitions like that because I value my friends too much to sell out my opinion for some competition. It's just not the way I swing. I don't know the first thing about B&H - I've never shopped there and being on the other side of the pond and I most probably never will. I'm sure they're very fine peoples. But I wouldn't pretend to like someone without any actual experience to back it up. Especially as my friends know me as a photography geek, so it will influence where they buy....
You're here, so you have experience. If you choose not to back B&H, I respect that.
Some people seem to be just as adverse to Twitter for all the same reasons.

My point here wasn't really about the contest as much as about being "anti-facebook" (or social media) in general. The contest is easy... don't like the rules, don't join. The bigger question is, WHY is it such a big deal to some people to NOT be on Facebook?


QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
Yeah I realize I have a choice, of course, and that's why I choose to exercise it. To watch what I say online, what I do, what I post. This is why I don't just post pics of myself online all over the place like some people do and tell everything I do all the time on Twitter.
You have the right to make that choice... but then start off by saying that... that you just don't WANT to be there. Using excuses like "people post things that are too personal so I might too..." is just silly. At least that's how it comes across. As if you have no choices once you do join. As if you can't exercise the same judgement on Facebook that you do here or anywhere else on the net.

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
My friends, they tend to have a clue. Good, real friends don't post pics of you without asking and while I may not be on Facebook, a lot people I know are, and I can assure you I'd find out and fairly quickly too.
Yeah okay. I will bet my left big toe that someday there's a picture of you on Facebook, if there isn't already. Whether it's a picture of just you, or as part of a family group photo. Hey, listen, I hate having my photo taken too, but you can't get around those family group shots sometimes... and people want to share them. If you don't want photos of you shown to anyone (on facebook or anywhere else for that matter), then best not be in them at all... because even in the real world they are passed around. And most of use realize how small a world this can be.

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
I'm not just talking about myself and what "I" do. I'm not most people and I am fully aware of that. But I've had a friend or two get in trouble for posting certain stuff online.

One friend got herself fired for finally admitting she was gay online, for posting pics of herself and her partner online. It was a brave move on her part finally coming out. She worked for a religious outfit that was actively anti-gay, and she knew that it likely might cost her her job, but she did it anyway. Because she just couldn't hide that part of her life anymore. Nonetheless the people that fired her definitely did so in direct answer to her coming out and because of her Facebook pics.
No, it wasn't FB that was the "problem" here (and I put that in quotes because personally, I feel, AWESOME for her coming out!). Her job was going to find out anyway... and do you hear how silly that argument is? She "came out" and then blamed FB for telling her job. She didn't "come out" if she didn't really "come out". She made a choice to do so in a public way, and if her job fired her for it, those are the consequences. I'd also suggest that she didn't want to really keep working for an anti-gay outfit anyway... but that's neither here-nor-there.

Of course, if she can prove she was fired JUST for being gay, she's got a pretty good lawsuit case. That's called discrimination in this country.

BTW, one of my closest friends is gay and works for government. He doesn't hide his sexuality, but doesn't broadcast it either. And he doesn't broadcast it on Facebook. Hell, I'm NOT gay and I rarely, if ever, post anything about my sexuality. LOL

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
I also had someone who I knew who was being stalked by an ex put back in jeopardy because some idiot friend of hers posted pics of her in a group in a club situation. Her ex used info from someone else's account to connect with the right group of friends, realized what club they were going to and accosted her there. Fortunately he didn't have a gun and he didn't make a move on her in public. He harassed her but that was it, no fists, this time.

No, it's not Facebook that's the problem, it's the people using it that you have to worry about...
I'm sorry for your friend. As a woman who has BEEN stalked (way before the internet), I know how awful that is. However, that situation was not part of a FB problem -- even as you said. But a problem of her stupid friends. If you're worried about how people act, then don't blame Facebook, because those problems can happen whether YOU are a member or not. I'd suggest that at least if she were a member she could protect herself and be sure there aren't photos or personal info there posted by other people. Years ago when I was having the stalker problem, friends would inadvertently talk about me to each other in a bar... without knowing he was an earshot away. Should I blame the bar?

In this day-and-age we have NO CHOICE but to embrace it. I respect your decision if you choose not to join, but don't expect that it still doesn't impact you somehow... or act as if the medium itself is to blame. It's like saying you don't have to pay your bills just because you don't have a mailing address.

Last edited by DRabbit; 06-07-2011 at 08:55 AM.
06-07-2011, 08:44 AM   #42
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I have a friend whose college instructor required that the entire class register for Facebook. My friend refused to join because he doesn't like Facebook. (His reason is that he saw an interview with John Tesh and John said to be careful what you post on Facebook. lol) Anyway...the instructor had created a class page on Facebook and was using it to post homework assignments, class changes, etc... When their final exam got postponed, the instructor posted the new date on the Facebook page. My friend missed the posting, missed the test, and flunked the class. The last I heard, he was intending to sue the instructor. His reasoning was that "teachers shouldn't be able to make you do things you don't want to do!" LOL LOL I said, "Dude....EVERY teacher I've ever had made me do things I didn't want to do! Otherwise, I would never have done any homework!" It looks to me like the Facebook requirement is being done in exchange for providing the prize for the contest. Maybe there should be two contests...one with a prize for those who use Facebook...and one without a prize for those who object.
06-07-2011, 08:50 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
One friend got herself fired for finally admitting she was gay online, for posting pics of herself and her partner online. It was a brave move on her part finally coming out. She worked for a religious outfit that was actively anti-gay, and she knew that it likely might cost her her job, but she did it anyway. Because she just couldn't hide that part of her life anymore. Nonetheless the people that fired her definitely did so in direct answer to her coming out and because of her Facebook pics.
Good on her! She knew the risk and she took it but she considered that being open was the way to go and she then used Facebook to her advantage. I'd say she would have cause to follow up for unfair dismisal unless your law allows discrimination by religious organisations (some countries do - Australia has reintroduced it in the state of Victoria)

QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
No, it's not Facebook that's the problem, it's the people using it that you have to worry about...
And that's the world and it isn't confined to Facebook. You use common sense. Unfortunately, many people don't and that can lead to risk like your second example. Opening yourself up to mre of the world exposes you to more risk. It also exposes you to more opportunity. As an example, I've been able to voice my opinion through Facebook in many communities and organisations and sporting groups in much the same way as can be done here. I've made many connections by doing so. I usually avoid liking a business unless it is one I want to deal with and I've had better offers through some business Facebook sites than directly through their online stores.
You take control and you choose.
06-07-2011, 09:09 AM   #44
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Sort of, Bill. You can always access what your friends like through their info, and the sidebar ads are also influenced by friends likes. I don't think it's too long before we get "Hey Johan one of your friends likes billybob company, maybe you should too!". Marketers use all sorts of idiocy to get as many likes as possible - putting access to special offers is I'm afraid one of the oldest tricks in the book =)

The funny thing is how FB has changed - from the extra profile fill-ins to being a collection of hobbies that you actually really do like (ie basically non-commercial) to a situation now where companies have become these interests (ie have their own pages you can like) and are falling over themselves to get people to like them on FB because it gets them into their friends social network.

Being a commie b*stard european left wing liberal socialist I of course have a certain innate cultural resistance to this so my likes arn't so quickly given out to the dark forces of capitalism or the evil empire that is social marketing. But of course resistance is futile.

DRabbit - your writing needs elaborating. It's not at all the case that I'm choosing specifically "not to back B&H" which has very negative connotations - it's more the fact that I've never personally dealt with them so I have no evidence on which to form an opinion, either negative or positive.
06-07-2011, 09:20 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nass Quote

The funny thing is how FB has changed - from the extra profile fill-ins to being a collection of hobbies that you actually really do like (ie basically non-commercial) to a situation now where companies have become these interests (ie have their own pages you can like) and are falling over themselves to get people to like them on FB because it gets them into their friends social network.

.
I agree it has changed and moved away from being solely a networking site. It is becoming social marketing. Twitter is to an extent too. I'm often amazed how many follows I get from businesses that also want me to follow them. In the end we will choose how much that influences us but I can see your point. Marketers will ride on the back of anything they can.
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