[GeneV]

It seems that a split among conservatives has developed over ethanol subsidies. On the one hand, you have oil state senators, such as Tom Coburn of OK, and Oil interests, such as the Koch brothers, who want to buy ethanol from Brazil. On the other hand, you have Grover Norquist who argues that removing a subsidy is a tax increase, and so conservatives cannot support it. (Odd thinking) This will not play in Iowa, and it is another instance of a move which will move part of energy production overseas. On the other hand, Brazilian ethanol is more eco-friendly. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Ethanol vote to set off GOP subsidy battles - Washington Times

Koch Brothers, Grover Norquist Split On Ethanol Subsidies

[JohnInIndy]

Let's take away all those subsidies. But include those for "green" energy also. So we can get back $900m from oil and close to 10 billion from the greenies.

[Rondec]

Ethanol isn't eco friendly and doesn't help the environment. It is not even worth making without serious government subsidies. Basically, ethanol got supported because it sound good in politicians speeches by "getting us free from dependence on foreign oil." It doesn't work, unless you can make it from other sources than corn (for example, switch grass) that don't require heavy cultivation, fertilizers, etc.

[JohnInIndy]

Ethanol isn't eco friendly and doesn't help the environment. It is not even worth making without serious government subsidies. Basically, ethanol got supported because it sound good in politicians speeches by "getting us free from dependence on foreign oil." It doesn't work, unless you can make it from other sources than corn (for example, switch grass) that don't require heavy cultivation, fertilizers, etc.

I know that. You know that. Most of America knows that. But still DC wants it. What DC wants we get even though most don't want it. Kind of like ObamaScare when it was rammed through. Even the "green" hybrid and electric cars aren't really green at all when you calculated in the making of the batteries and such. In fact they have a higher pollution level than gas ICE.

[deadwolfbones]

I know that. You know that. Most of America knows that. But still DC wants it. What DC wants we get even though most don't want it. Kind of like ObamaScare when it was rammed through.

It's not at all like that.

[JohnInIndy]

It's not at all like that.

It is everything like that and you know that because that's that.

[mikemike]

I think this is more a split over doing the right thing, which is ending the subsidies, and bringing home the bacon. Ending the subsidies benefits everyone who doesn't grow corn or process it into ethanol.

[newarts]

I think this is more a split over doing the right thing, which is ending the subsidies, and bringing home the bacon. Ending the subsidies benefits everyone who doesn't grow corn or process it into ethanol.

Even Senator Grassley (IA) knows the corn ethanol subsidy must end & he's introduced legislation to phase it out gently (according to him.)

[deadwolfbones]

It is everything like that and you know that because that's that.

Universal healthcare is a good and necessary program that was sabotaged for political reasons by the Republicans.

Ethanol is a retarded byproduct of aggressive lobbying and political grandstanding by both parties.

[shooz]

Ethanol actually makes a lot of sense. Just not the way it's being done.
It's a product you could make at home, were it legal.

Where is the small batch home solar still?

Where are the engineers and entrepreneurs, who could make this work?
We more than likely throw out enough distillable vegetation every year to bring the oil pigs to their knees.

[reeftool]

The real issue is that oil is being consumed worldwide faster than it can be pumped out of the ground and refined. The slumping economy is the only thing slowing consumption and holding prices (barely) to affordable levels. Ethanol and electric hybrids are both going to be important in the future. Whether or not any should be subsidized is certainly open to debate. My own opinion is to let the American entrepreneurs figure it out. The technology is there.

[GeneV]

The real issue is that oil is being consumed worldwide faster than it can be pumped out of the ground and refined. The slumping economy is the only thing slowing consumption and holding prices (barely) to affordable levels. Ethanol and electric hybrids are both going to be important in the future. Whether or not any should be subsidized is certainly open to debate. My own opinion is to let the American entrepreneurs figure it out. The technology is there.

The economics are not there, though. The real answer (and here is one area where I think MikeMike and I tend to agree) is to have the price of oil reflect its true cost. This is what Europe has done. Even at $4 per gallon, we aren't coming close to paying the total cost of oil. We subsidize it and the automobile when it is not in our long-term interest. We spend trillions on wars to protect it and environmental laws to clean up after it. We develop our land in wasteful ways to accommodate overuse of oil and automobiles.

Tax it to pay its full freight, and loan the money out for alternative energy and mass transit projects. Stimulate the economy and change habits. Of course, encroaching upon oil would be political suicide, as Jimmy Carter discovered.

[reeftool]

As the saying goes, necessity is the mother of invention. When the s*** hit the fan is when alternative energy sources will finally be looked at seriously. There are far too many people who believe that oil is going to last forever.

[wildman]

The real issue is that oil is being consumed worldwide faster than it can be pumped out of the ground and refined.

Here's an idea:

Maybe there really are limits.

Maybe we can't keep going on adding people to the world population and expect that all these people will be able to have a Western middle class standard of living.

Maybe no matter what we do socially, economically, technically and industrially the world's human and natural systems will eventually face collapse given such a scenario.

Maybe the idea that we can have infinite growth in a finite world is insane?

[hcarvalhoalves]

Ethanol isn't eco friendly and doesn't help the environment. It is not even worth making without serious government subsidies. Basically, ethanol got supported because it sound good in politicians speeches by "getting us free from dependence on foreign oil." It doesn't work, unless you can make it from other sources than corn (for example, switch grass) that don't require heavy cultivation, fertilizers, etc.

More than half of Brazil runs on ethanol since 1970, despite the fact we have more petrol available than the internal market would potentially consume. So it's not like we use it to be independent from foreign oil. Also, our ethanol is made from sugar cane, not corn, so ethanol is just one of the byproducts - others being sugar, biomass and other byproducts that get used for textiles and stuff.

That said, big extensions of native forest are destroyed to grow cane, so I would much prefer smarter energy sources.