Pulitzer Prize winning Journalist admits to being an Illegal Immigrant

Northern Soul · 06-24-2011, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Parallax

You believe wrong.

You mean not all of the internet is true?!

Damn.

I'm sending these herbal pills back ...

Parallax · 06-24-2011, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by Northern Soul

I'm sending these herbal pills back ...

No, no! Those really work. They improve your alertness, circulation, memory, and, uh, um, something else, um er, oh hell, now I need a nap.

mikemike · 06-25-2011, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by Northern Soul

It's legal, sure. I asked if it was valid. What difference does it make to the rest of the US if Mr Vargas has a 'sham' marriage, or not?

I can see why being married to someone would give you grounds to stay, but I can't see why not being married to someone is automatically a reason to deport someone.

I'm saying that if he had done it in the early 2000s when there wasn't legal gay marriage he could have had no moral qualms about a sham marriage. If he did it now he could do it for love. Either way, the marriage path is a huge opportunity for anyone in his situation. Even his grandfather agreed that the marriage rule was sufficient to get him legal status. If you are living in the US and fall in love you have a 99% chance of being in love with someone who is a US citizen and can get you citizenship via marriage. He had a huge leg up on getting citizenship compared to the rest of the Filipinos, especially Filipino men.

Being a bachelor isn't a reason to deport someone, but an expired or no visa at all is.

Northern Soul · 06-25-2011, 09:40 AM

I think you are missing my point.

If you'd be happy for him to stay if he'd lied about being in love with someone, why aren't you happy to let him stay given that he hasn't.

What difference does his marital status make to the moral question as to whether or not he should be allowed to remain?

**Rondec** · 06-25-2011, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by Northern Soul

I think you are missing my point.

If you'd be happy for him to stay if he'd lied about being in love with someone, why aren't you happy to let him stay given that he hasn't.

What difference does his marital status make to the moral question as to whether or not he should be allowed to remain?

People in general have absolutely no problem with immigration policy, it is only when it comes down to specific cases that they have any qualms at all. In the United States there are currently 11 million estimated illegal immigrants. By all accounts, they are hard working people who want to experience a good life. Unfortunately, their presence tends to make it harder for legal citizens to find jobs and tends to depress wages of jobs at the low end of the spectrum.
None of this has much bearing on the case at hand, but it is why people feel strongly about illegal immigration.

My brother-in-law immigrated legally from the country of Nigeria. It took him a year to get all of the proper papers done and Visa obtained, but in the end, he got them. I feel very differently about his situation than about the millions of others who come illegally.

I do think there should be some amnesty granted for some of these people, but it is hard for know which ones should benefit from such a policy and how it should be applied.

MRRiley · 06-25-2011, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by Northern Soul

I think you are missing my point.

If you'd be happy for him to stay if he'd lied about being in love with someone, why aren't you happy to let him stay given that he hasn't.

What difference does his marital status make to the moral question as to whether or not he should be allowed to remain?

Its simple... Marriage to a citizen is ONE acceptable way for an immigrant to stay in this country. Whether that marriage is genuine or not, as long as it is executed legally, it is difficult for authorities to prove fraud on the part of either the immigrant or their spouse.

The way Vargas entered and stayed in this country is not legal or acceptable in any sense or by any exemptions under immigration laws.

Mike

mikemike · 06-25-2011, 04:29 PM

Heres a scenario of a crime similar to what an illegal immigrant brought here as a minor experiences. A mother is a bar tender and one Wednesday night a patron sees the lottery results on TV to find out that the numbers he buys every week won and he is now a multi-millionaire. The lottery winner proceeds to celebrate by buying everyone in the bar drinks and getting smashed to the point where he can't stand up. His keys to his 7 year old Toyota Camry on the bar are left on the bar when the mother's shift is over and she decides to take it as a gift for her son's upcoming birthday. When she gives the car to him her son is so happy and thinks nothing of driving it for years until he gets pulled over and is politely "informed" by the cop that his car is stolen. At this point he can either take credit for stealing the car or explain that his mother gave him the car and let her take the blame and get off easy. This is the grown up illegal immigrant's dilemma no one is terribly hurt by their crime in Mr. Vargas' case just an unemployed journalist that could have done his job while in the story above the lottery winner won't really miss that car anyway.

I absolutely support a more open immigration policy but I don't think that the fact that your parents broke the law and dragged you along justifies your being able to enjoy the spoils. I think Bernie Madoff's kids should have to give back every penny in their bank account which their father paid them out of money he stole from his clients. Let them start their life over, but they get zeroed out and start from the back of the line.

leadbelly · 06-25-2011, 07:51 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by mikemike

It remains to be seen whether he is actually going to make a sacrifice and go back to the Philippines and take a job at the Manila Times reporting on bananas and coconuts.

Hmmm... bananas and coconuts? really?

shooz · 06-25-2011, 09:10 PM

Aren't bigoted right wing statements fun?.......?

GeneV · 06-26-2011, 09:02 AM

Originally posted by mikemike

Heres a scenario of a crime similar to what an illegal immigrant brought here as a minor experiences. A mother is a bar tender and one Wednesday night a patron sees the lottery results on TV to find out that the numbers he buys every week won and he is now a multi-millionaire. The lottery winner proceeds to celebrate by buying everyone in the bar drinks and getting smashed to the point where he can't stand up. His keys to his 7 year old Toyota Camry on the bar are left on the bar when the mother's shift is over and she decides to take it as a gift for her son's upcoming birthday. When she gives the car to him her son is so happy and thinks nothing of driving it for years until he gets pulled over and is politely "informed" by the cop that his car is stolen. At this point he can either take credit for stealing the car or explain that his mother gave him the car and let her take the blame and get off easy. This is the grown up illegal immigrant's dilemma no one is terribly hurt by their crime in Mr. Vargas' case just an unemployed journalist that could have done his job while in the story above the lottery winner won't really miss that car anyway.

Do you really think that story is remotely relevant to the case at hand?

Immigration law is far more complicated than a stolen car, and certain aspects are crimes and certain aren't. Being an undocumented resident may or may not be a crime--if it is, certainly not one which authorities would take seriously against a child. It appears that Vargas entered legally (on a commercial flight), and overstaying a visa is generally not a crime.

Using documents knowing them to be forged is the serious crime here--not status.

Now, he isn't going to fly home on his forged passport without committing another crime and possibly committing a crime in the Phillipines, so I suppose everyone here is expecting him to show up at an immigration office and say "deport me," please?

MRRiley · 06-26-2011, 09:14 AM

Actually Gene, if you read the article carefully, Vargas entered on forged documents and then his grandfather (evidently a naturalized citizen) obtained and provided further fake documents. After discovering his true status at age 16, Vargas surrendered whatever innocence he had in the matter when he then knowingly used a validly obtained "restricted" SSAN card that was then altered by his grandfather to hide the INS restrictions. He then habitually and blatantly provided "copies" (to hide the deception better) of this altered SSAN card to multiple employers over a period of 14 years.

Multiple felonies there on both Vargas' part and his grandfather's.

Mike

GeneV · 06-26-2011, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by MRRiley

Actually Gene, if you read the article carefully, Vargas entered on forged documents and then his grandfather (evidently a naturalized citizen) obtained and provided further fake documents. After discovering his true status at age 16, Vargas surrendered whatever innocence he had in the matter when he then knowingly used a validly obtained "restricted" SSAN card that was then altered by his grandfather to hide the INS restrictions. He then habitually and blatantly provided "copies" (to hide the deception better) of this altered SSAN card to multiple employers over a period of 14 years.

Multiple felonies there on both Vargas' part and his grandfather's.

Mike

As I said, forgery is a crime, and his grandparents, and at some point, he has problems there. In most jurisdictions, a 12 year old cannot be a felon, though, especially if he knows nothing about the source of the documents which got him there (which I missed on the first read). Status is not a crime. Forgery is.

Parallax · 06-26-2011, 09:49 AM

Originally posted by GeneV

Status is not a crime. Forgery is.

So is misprision. At some point he knew the documents were forged.

GeneV · 06-26-2011, 10:24 AM

Originally posted by Parallax

So is misprision. At some point he knew the documents were forged.

Misprision is usually a misdemeanor which is seldom prosecuted, but my question is what reasonably, do we expect him to do when he is 16 years old and finds out his papers are false? To me, he is in the same situation as many, many children of undocumented residents, and it is a problem for which we don't have a good solution.

By the way, I run into forged papers in court cases with immigrants. No one ever seems to go to jail or get deported, and the papers look darned good. For a state official to have called Vargas on his Green Card back when he was 16, his family must have had some lousy work done for the money. It takes some pretty sophisticated research to really check one of these out. I'm not sure I totally buy his story.

These things are so common that it seems like a joke that we will ask voters for ID at the polls. The ones (if they exist) who really want to defraud will have an ID that will pass the examination of the retiree who watches the polls; the ones who won't will be elderly or less educated citizens who have not needed the ID up to now, but that is another thread.

MRRiley · 06-26-2011, 10:52 AM

I can't imagine that presenting forged documents to the U.S. Secret Service for the purposes of getting into the White House would be classed as a misdemeanor either...

Of course, someone at the SS probably needs to be burned for failing to catch that situation...

06-25-2011, 09:26 AM	#48
mikemike Inactive Account Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: New Orleans Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,053	Originally posted by Northern Soul It's legal, sure. I asked if it was valid. What difference does it make to the rest of the US if Mr Vargas has a 'sham' marriage, or not? I can see why being married to someone would give you grounds to stay, but I can't see why not being married to someone is automatically a reason to deport someone. I'm saying that if he had done it in the early 2000s when there wasn't legal gay marriage he could have had no moral qualms about a sham marriage. If he did it now he could do it for love. Either way, the marriage path is a huge opportunity for anyone in his situation. Even his grandfather agreed that the marriage rule was sufficient to get him legal status. If you are living in the US and fall in love you have a 99% chance of being in love with someone who is a US citizen and can get you citizenship via marriage. He had a huge leg up on getting citizenship compared to the rest of the Filipinos, especially Filipino men. Being a bachelor isn't a reason to deport someone, but an expired or no visa at all is. Last edited by mikemike; 06-25-2011 at 09:33 AM.

06-26-2011, 09:49 AM	#58
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,333	Originally posted by GeneV Status is not a crime. Forgery is. So is misprision. At some point he knew the documents were forged. Last edited by Parallax; 06-26-2011 at 09:57 AM.

06-26-2011, 10:24 AM	#59
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by Parallax So is misprision. At some point he knew the documents were forged. Misprision is usually a misdemeanor which is seldom prosecuted, but my question is what reasonably, do we expect him to do when he is 16 years old and finds out his papers are false? To me, he is in the same situation as many, many children of undocumented residents, and it is a problem for which we don't have a good solution. By the way, I run into forged papers in court cases with immigrants. No one ever seems to go to jail or get deported, and the papers look darned good. For a state official to have called Vargas on his Green Card back when he was 16, his family must have had some lousy work done for the money. It takes some pretty sophisticated research to really check one of these out. I'm not sure I totally buy his story. These things are so common that it seems like a joke that we will ask voters for ID at the polls. The ones (if they exist) who really want to defraud will have an ID that will pass the examination of the retiree who watches the polls; the ones who won't will be elderly or less educated citizens who have not needed the ID up to now, but that is another thread. Last edited by GeneV; 06-26-2011 at 10:30 AM.

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06-24-2011, 02:28 PM	#46
Northern Soul Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: The North of England Photos: Albums Posts: 494	Originally posted by Parallax You believe wrong. You mean not all of the internet is true?! Damn. I'm sending these herbal pills back ...

06-24-2011, 02:33 PM	#47
Parallax Senior Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: South Dakota Photos: Gallery Posts: 19,333	Originally posted by Northern Soul I'm sending these herbal pills back ... No, no! Those really work. They improve your alertness, circulation, memory, and, uh, um, something else, um er, oh hell, now I need a nap.

06-25-2011, 09:40 AM	#49
Northern Soul Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: The North of England Photos: Albums Posts: 494	I think you are missing my point. If you'd be happy for him to stay if he'd lied about being in love with someone, why aren't you happy to let him stay given that he hasn't. What difference does his marital status make to the moral question as to whether or not he should be allowed to remain?

06-25-2011, 10:56 AM	#50
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,663	Originally posted by Northern Soul I think you are missing my point. If you'd be happy for him to stay if he'd lied about being in love with someone, why aren't you happy to let him stay given that he hasn't. What difference does his marital status make to the moral question as to whether or not he should be allowed to remain? People in general have absolutely no problem with immigration policy, it is only when it comes down to specific cases that they have any qualms at all. In the United States there are currently 11 million estimated illegal immigrants. By all accounts, they are hard working people who want to experience a good life. Unfortunately, their presence tends to make it harder for legal citizens to find jobs and tends to depress wages of jobs at the low end of the spectrum. None of this has much bearing on the case at hand, but it is why people feel strongly about illegal immigration. My brother-in-law immigrated legally from the country of Nigeria. It took him a year to get all of the proper papers done and Visa obtained, but in the end, he got them. I feel very differently about his situation than about the millions of others who come illegally. I do think there should be some amnesty granted for some of these people, but it is hard for know which ones should benefit from such a policy and how it should be applied.

06-25-2011, 03:10 PM	#51
MRRiley Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sterling, VA, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,275 Original Poster	Originally posted by Northern Soul I think you are missing my point. If you'd be happy for him to stay if he'd lied about being in love with someone, why aren't you happy to let him stay given that he hasn't. What difference does his marital status make to the moral question as to whether or not he should be allowed to remain? Its simple... Marriage to a citizen is ONE acceptable way for an immigrant to stay in this country. Whether that marriage is genuine or not, as long as it is executed legally, it is difficult for authorities to prove fraud on the part of either the immigrant or their spouse. The way Vargas entered and stayed in this country is not legal or acceptable in any sense or by any exemptions under immigration laws. Mike

06-25-2011, 04:29 PM	#52
mikemike Inactive Account Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: New Orleans Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,053	Heres a scenario of a crime similar to what an illegal immigrant brought here as a minor experiences. A mother is a bar tender and one Wednesday night a patron sees the lottery results on TV to find out that the numbers he buys every week won and he is now a multi-millionaire. The lottery winner proceeds to celebrate by buying everyone in the bar drinks and getting smashed to the point where he can't stand up. His keys to his 7 year old Toyota Camry on the bar are left on the bar when the mother's shift is over and she decides to take it as a gift for her son's upcoming birthday. When she gives the car to him her son is so happy and thinks nothing of driving it for years until he gets pulled over and is politely "informed" by the cop that his car is stolen. At this point he can either take credit for stealing the car or explain that his mother gave him the car and let her take the blame and get off easy. This is the grown up illegal immigrant's dilemma no one is terribly hurt by their crime in Mr. Vargas' case just an unemployed journalist that could have done his job while in the story above the lottery winner won't really miss that car anyway. I absolutely support a more open immigration policy but I don't think that the fact that your parents broke the law and dragged you along justifies your being able to enjoy the spoils. I think Bernie Madoff's kids should have to give back every penny in their bank account which their father paid them out of money he stole from his clients. Let them start their life over, but they get zeroed out and start from the back of the line.

06-25-2011, 07:51 PM - 1 Like	#53
leadbelly Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 597	Originally posted by mikemike It remains to be seen whether he is actually going to make a sacrifice and go back to the Philippines and take a job at the Manila Times reporting on bananas and coconuts. Hmmm... bananas and coconuts? really?

06-25-2011, 09:10 PM	#54
shooz Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Detroit Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,491	Aren't bigoted right wing statements fun?.......?

06-26-2011, 09:02 AM	#55
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by mikemike Heres a scenario of a crime similar to what an illegal immigrant brought here as a minor experiences. A mother is a bar tender and one Wednesday night a patron sees the lottery results on TV to find out that the numbers he buys every week won and he is now a multi-millionaire. The lottery winner proceeds to celebrate by buying everyone in the bar drinks and getting smashed to the point where he can't stand up. His keys to his 7 year old Toyota Camry on the bar are left on the bar when the mother's shift is over and she decides to take it as a gift for her son's upcoming birthday. When she gives the car to him her son is so happy and thinks nothing of driving it for years until he gets pulled over and is politely "informed" by the cop that his car is stolen. At this point he can either take credit for stealing the car or explain that his mother gave him the car and let her take the blame and get off easy. This is the grown up illegal immigrant's dilemma no one is terribly hurt by their crime in Mr. Vargas' case just an unemployed journalist that could have done his job while in the story above the lottery winner won't really miss that car anyway. Do you really think that story is remotely relevant to the case at hand? Immigration law is far more complicated than a stolen car, and certain aspects are crimes and certain aren't. Being an undocumented resident may or may not be a crime--if it is, certainly not one which authorities would take seriously against a child. It appears that Vargas entered legally (on a commercial flight), and overstaying a visa is generally not a crime. Using documents knowing them to be forged is the serious crime here--not status. Now, he isn't going to fly home on his forged passport without committing another crime and possibly committing a crime in the Phillipines, so I suppose everyone here is expecting him to show up at an immigration office and say "deport me," please?

06-26-2011, 09:14 AM	#56
MRRiley Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sterling, VA, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,275 Original Poster	Actually Gene, if you read the article carefully, Vargas entered on forged documents and then his grandfather (evidently a naturalized citizen) obtained and provided further fake documents. After discovering his true status at age 16, Vargas surrendered whatever innocence he had in the matter when he then knowingly used a validly obtained "restricted" SSAN card that was then altered by his grandfather to hide the INS restrictions. He then habitually and blatantly provided "copies" (to hide the deception better) of this altered SSAN card to multiple employers over a period of 14 years. Multiple felonies there on both Vargas' part and his grandfather's. Mike

06-26-2011, 09:41 AM	#57
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by MRRiley Actually Gene, if you read the article carefully, Vargas entered on forged documents and then his grandfather (evidently a naturalized citizen) obtained and provided further fake documents. After discovering his true status at age 16, Vargas surrendered whatever innocence he had in the matter when he then knowingly used a validly obtained "restricted" SSAN card that was then altered by his grandfather to hide the INS restrictions. He then habitually and blatantly provided "copies" (to hide the deception better) of this altered SSAN card to multiple employers over a period of 14 years. Multiple felonies there on both Vargas' part and his grandfather's. Mike As I said, forgery is a crime, and his grandparents, and at some point, he has problems there. In most jurisdictions, a 12 year old cannot be a felon, though, especially if he knows nothing about the source of the documents which got him there (which I missed on the first read). Status is not a crime. Forgery is.

06-26-2011, 10:52 AM	#60
MRRiley Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sterling, VA, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 6,275 Original Poster	I can't imagine that presenting forged documents to the U.S. Secret Service for the purposes of getting into the White House would be classed as a misdemeanor either... Of course, someone at the SS probably needs to be burned for failing to catch that situation...