Curious question

gokenin · 07-17-2011, 11:09 AM

I sit here and read that Everything currently wrong with America can simply be traced to Republicans, tea party members and corporations so I ask if you could wipe it all away and start from scratch what would your America look like?

GeneV · 07-17-2011, 11:27 AM

Since your question inaccurately summarizes my view and, I think, that of most of the other posters here, it is very difficult to respond. However, if others believe you have accurately stated their views, then I'll let them answer.

wildman · 07-17-2011, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by gokenin

what would your America look like?

Just off the top of my head...

...a country with a culture far less seduced by the simple-minded commercial materialism that is so dominate now.

No doubt more to follow later.

stevewig · 07-17-2011, 11:41 AM

A very interesting question!

I think that America has very little wrong with it politically but with the exception of the ever increasing extremism of the right-wing of the Republicans including the Tea Baggers.

It is much the same, probably, as you would feel if the Democrats started becoming extreme on the Left.

Problem now is that you are being persuaded by the extremists that Obama and his party is Socialist to the point that many really do believe it.

Seems that there is no middle ground anymore for a Republican?

gokenin · 07-17-2011, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by GeneV

Since your question inaccurately summarizes my view and, I think, that of most of the other posters here, it is very difficult to respond. However, if others believe you have accurately stated their views, then I'll let them answer.

Gene have you looked at the first page topics the last year or three? Can you really tell me that my statement is so far from the truth in regards to how many here feel? As far as middle of the road republicans go neither party really offers what I would say most of us want so we muddle along for the ride just like many conservative democrats do hoping for the best but never really expecting it to happen.

GeneV · 07-17-2011, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by gokenin

Gene have you looked at the first page topics the last year or three? Can you really tell me that my statement is so far from the truth in regards to how many here feel?

Absolutely. Saying that the far right Republican party is a big problem right now is not the same thing as saying " Everything currently wrong with America can simply be traced to Republicans..." That is a rather flippant statement that sounds like your feelings are just hurt by others here having a different opinion, or perhaps you are hurt and disappointed by the actions of your own party right now.

There are many problems that can't be "simply be traced to Republicans." However, whether or not the problem can be traced to Republicans, I will say that the current group that controls the party isn't helping much to solve many of the problems.

stevewig · 07-17-2011, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by gokenin

Gene have you looked at the first page topics the last year or three? Can you really tell me that my statement is so far from the truth in regards to how many here feel? As far as middle of the road republicans go neither party really offers what I would say most of us want so we muddle along for the ride just like many conservative democrats do hoping for the best but never really expecting it to happen.

What America needs most right now (and this forum too) is to hear much more from the normal, middle of the road republicans and much less from the tea baggers and extremists!

Hopefully, once this crisis is over, that will happen.

wildman · 07-17-2011, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by stevewig

normal, middle of the road

Isn't that the problem?

The "norm" is no longer somewhere between the extremes but in fact being extreme has become the norm to a great extent.

The mere fact that someone holds extreme views in it's self does not bother me but when you start thinking your extreme views are some kind of transcendent truth virtually ordained by god that the mischief begins.

This kind of extremism (extremism+absolute certainty) is, in my opinion, much more common on the right than the left.

I get so tired of the right's talk about their "principles" when, in fact, it's often just a euphemism covering up a narrow tenacious stubbornness. Then they try to make a political virtue out of this behavior.

redrockcoulee · 07-17-2011, 03:49 PM

From outside the United States I would stay that you are viewing what is wrong with the United States as a Republican problem or that others do so. The problem IMHO is that politics in the United States has been a right wing one going more and more to the right each year with little or no counter balance to it. Both Bill Clinton and Obama are central to right leaning politicians and yet are branded as socialists or even communists. Due to this and many of the pubic seeming to buy the far right are empowered and can continuously push for more and more far right ideas and any counter to it is viewed as either socialist or anti-American.

In support of what Gene stated, look at the number of Republican moderates who have been singled out for defeat at the primary stage just for seeking compromised in an attempt to have good governance, it seems that those with money and the far right agenda are succeeding in forcing the GOP to be increasing more to the right and more anti poor etc.

On a more serious note if the US was to start from scratch I would suggest one less down, ten yards longer field wider, with deeper end zones and add one person to the backfield. And get rid of the fair catch!

Most other democratic countries have more than two elected parties and have a variety of parties on both sides of the centre and perhaps one or two on the centre itself. Compare the ideology of the current government to that of say Nikon, Ford, Regan or Johnson and it is probably much more like the Republican ones than of Johnson.

GeneV · 07-17-2011, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by redrockcoulee

Most other democratic countries have more than two elected parties and have a variety of parties on both sides of the centre and perhaps one or two on the centre itself. Compare the ideology of the current government to that of say Nikon, Ford, Regan or Johnson and it is probably much more like the Republican ones than of Johnson.

Is Nikon for Republicans? Perhaps Pentax is for Democrats; that is why more of the board leans that way these days.

I would agree that Nixon governed in a centrist way. Nixon would be branded a socialist by his party today. He supported most of the agencies and regulations that are now considered left-wing. He even had a health care plan that current Republican politicians would surely be deemed right out of the Soviet Union.

From Nixon's February 6, 1974 speech to Congress:

Quote:

COMPREHENSIVE HEALTH INSURANCE PLAN (CHIP)

Early last year, I directed the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare to prepare a new and improved plan for comprehensive health insurance. That plan, as I indicated in my State of the Union message, has been developed and I am presenting it to the Congress today. I urge its enactment as soon as possible.

The plan is organized around seven principles:

First, it offers every American an opportunity to obtain a balanced, comprehensive range of health insurance benefits;

Second, it will cost no American more than he can afford to pay;
Third, it builds on the strength and diversity of our existing public and private systems of health financing and harmonizes them into an overall system;

Fourth, it uses public funds only where needed and requires no new Federal taxes;

Fifth, it would maintain freedom of choice by patients and ensure that doctors work for their patient, not for the Federal Government.

Sixth, it encourages more effective use of our health care resources;

And finally, it is organized so that all parties would have a direct stake in making the system work--consumer, provider, insurer, State governments and the Federal Government.

* * *

Every employer would be required to offer all full-time employees the Comprehensive Health Insurance Plan. Additional benefits could then be added by mutual agreement. The insurance plan would be jointly financed, with employers paying 65 percent of the premium for the first three years of the plan, and 75 percent thereafter. Employees would pay the balance of the premiums. Temporary Federal subsidies would be used to ease the initial burden on employers who face significant cost increases.

* * *

The program of Assisted Health Insurance is designed to cover everyone not offered coverage under Employee Health Insurance or Medicare, including the unemployed, the disabled, the self-employed, and those with low incomes. In addition, persons with higher incomes could also obtain Assisted Health Insurance if they cannot otherwise get coverage at reasonable rates. Included in this latter group might be persons whose health status or type of work puts them in high-risk insurance categories.

http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2009/September/03/nixon-proposal.aspx

shooz · 07-17-2011, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by gokenin

I sit here and read that Everything currently wrong with America can simply be traced to Republicans, tea party members and corporations so I ask if you could wipe it all away and start from scratch what would your America look like?

Paradise..............................

reeftool · 07-17-2011, 10:47 PM

If you look at history, we probably aren't any more screwed up than previous generations.

wildman · 07-18-2011, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by reeftool

If you look at history, we probably aren't any more screwed up than previous generations.

With a population approaching 10 billion, nuclear power, nuclear weapons, a complex interdependent economic system, destruction of entire bio systems, exhaustion of cheap power reserves etc etc - do we any longer have the luxury of being no more screwed up than previous generations?

mikemike · 07-18-2011, 07:07 AM - **1 Like**

Part of the reason it seems that way is because what is on here is usually driven by an article in a news. The US press, with few exceptions, acts as fluffers for the democratic party's agenda. What you see is that big, unsustainable increases have gone into government budgets for various things for years and now the republicans have to be the "bad guys" and do whats right for the country in the long run.

jeffkrol · 07-18-2011, 07:20 AM

I have no problem with stating when Clinton signed the Republican backed legislation to "free" up the banks it is a de-facto start of the collision course we went on.

At least Clinton APOLOGIZED for being short sighted. Something I have yet to see any Republican do for any errors in judgement over the past 30 years, including the Irag war, torture, domestic spying, unfunded military ventures of all kinds, trickle down "voodoo" economics, deregulation of the banks, oil subsidies ect.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/nov1999/bank-n01.shtml

Quote:

An agreement between the Clinton administration and congressional Republicans, reached during all-night negotiations which concluded in the early hours of October 22, sets the stage for passage of the most sweeping banking deregulation bill in American history, lifting virtually all restraints on the operation of the giant monopolies which dominate the financial system.

Maybe it seems like a little thing to many, but a little humility goes a long way in my book................

07-17-2011, 11:09 AM	#1
gokenin Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: lowell,ma Posts: 1,899	Curious question I sit here and read that Everything currently wrong with America can simply be traced to Republicans, tea party members and corporations so I ask if you could wipe it all away and start from scratch what would your America look like?

07-17-2011, 12:25 PM	#6
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by gokenin Gene have you looked at the first page topics the last year or three? Can you really tell me that my statement is so far from the truth in regards to how many here feel? Absolutely. Saying that the far right Republican party is a big problem right now is not the same thing as saying " Everything currently wrong with America can simply be traced to Republicans..." That is a rather flippant statement that sounds like your feelings are just hurt by others here having a different opinion, or perhaps you are hurt and disappointed by the actions of your own party right now. There are many problems that can't be "simply be traced to Republicans." However, whether or not the problem can be traced to Republicans, I will say that the current group that controls the party isn't helping much to solve many of the problems. Last edited by GeneV; 07-17-2011 at 12:33 PM.

07-17-2011, 03:20 PM	#8
wildman Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Flyover America Posts: 4,469	Originally posted by stevewig normal, middle of the road Isn't that the problem? The "norm" is no longer somewhere between the extremes but in fact being extreme has become the norm to a great extent. The mere fact that someone holds extreme views in it's self does not bother me but when you start thinking your extreme views are some kind of transcendent truth virtually ordained by god that the mischief begins. This kind of extremism (extremism+absolute certainty) is, in my opinion, much more common on the right than the left. I get so tired of the right's talk about their "principles" when, in fact, it's often just a euphemism covering up a narrow tenacious stubbornness. Then they try to make a political virtue out of this behavior. Last edited by wildman; 07-17-2011 at 03:32 PM.

07-17-2011, 04:09 PM	#10
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Originally posted by redrockcoulee Most other democratic countries have more than two elected parties and have a variety of parties on both sides of the centre and perhaps one or two on the centre itself. Compare the ideology of the current government to that of say Nikon, Ford, Regan or Johnson and it is probably much more like the Republican ones than of Johnson. Is Nikon for Republicans? Perhaps Pentax is for Democrats; that is why more of the board leans that way these days. I would agree that Nixon governed in a centrist way. Nixon would be branded a socialist by his party today. He supported most of the agencies and regulations that are now considered left-wing. He even had a health care plan that current Republican politicians would surely be deemed right out of the Soviet Union. From Nixon's February 6, 1974 speech to Congress: Quote: COMPREHENSIVE HEALTH INSURANCE PLAN (CHIP) Early last year, I directed the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare to prepare a new and improved plan for comprehensive health insurance. That plan, as I indicated in my State of the Union message, has been developed and I am presenting it to the Congress today. I urge its enactment as soon as possible. The plan is organized around seven principles: First, it offers every American an opportunity to obtain a balanced, comprehensive range of health insurance benefits; Second, it will cost no American more than he can afford to pay; Third, it builds on the strength and diversity of our existing public and private systems of health financing and harmonizes them into an overall system; Fourth, it uses public funds only where needed and requires no new Federal taxes; Fifth, it would maintain freedom of choice by patients and ensure that doctors work for their patient, not for the Federal Government. Sixth, it encourages more effective use of our health care resources; And finally, it is organized so that all parties would have a direct stake in making the system work--consumer, provider, insurer, State governments and the Federal Government. * * * Every employer would be required to offer all full-time employees the Comprehensive Health Insurance Plan. Additional benefits could then be added by mutual agreement. The insurance plan would be jointly financed, with employers paying 65 percent of the premium for the first three years of the plan, and 75 percent thereafter. Employees would pay the balance of the premiums. Temporary Federal subsidies would be used to ease the initial burden on employers who face significant cost increases. * * * The program of Assisted Health Insurance is designed to cover everyone not offered coverage under Employee Health Insurance or Medicare, including the unemployed, the disabled, the self-employed, and those with low incomes. In addition, persons with higher incomes could also obtain Assisted Health Insurance if they cannot otherwise get coverage at reasonable rates. Included in this latter group might be persons whose health status or type of work puts them in high-risk insurance categories. http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2009/September/03/nixon-proposal.aspx Last edited by GeneV; 07-18-2011 at 02:22 AM.

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07-17-2011, 11:27 AM	#2
GeneV Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Albuquerque NM Photos: Albums Posts: 9,830	Since your question inaccurately summarizes my view and, I think, that of most of the other posters here, it is very difficult to respond. However, if others believe you have accurately stated their views, then I'll let them answer.

07-17-2011, 11:40 AM	#3
wildman Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Flyover America Posts: 4,469	Originally posted by gokenin what would your America look like? Just off the top of my head... ...a country with a culture far less seduced by the simple-minded commercial materialism that is so dominate now. No doubt more to follow later.

07-17-2011, 11:41 AM	#4
stevewig Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 773	A very interesting question! I think that America has very little wrong with it politically but with the exception of the ever increasing extremism of the right-wing of the Republicans including the Tea Baggers. It is much the same, probably, as you would feel if the Democrats started becoming extreme on the Left. Problem now is that you are being persuaded by the extremists that Obama and his party is Socialist to the point that many really do believe it. Seems that there is no middle ground anymore for a Republican?

07-17-2011, 12:09 PM	#5
gokenin Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: lowell,ma Posts: 1,899 Original Poster	Originally posted by GeneV Since your question inaccurately summarizes my view and, I think, that of most of the other posters here, it is very difficult to respond. However, if others believe you have accurately stated their views, then I'll let them answer. Gene have you looked at the first page topics the last year or three? Can you really tell me that my statement is so far from the truth in regards to how many here feel? As far as middle of the road republicans go neither party really offers what I would say most of us want so we muddle along for the ride just like many conservative democrats do hoping for the best but never really expecting it to happen.

07-17-2011, 02:01 PM	#7
stevewig Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 773	Originally posted by gokenin Gene have you looked at the first page topics the last year or three? Can you really tell me that my statement is so far from the truth in regards to how many here feel? As far as middle of the road republicans go neither party really offers what I would say most of us want so we muddle along for the ride just like many conservative democrats do hoping for the best but never really expecting it to happen. What America needs most right now (and this forum too) is to hear much more from the normal, middle of the road republicans and much less from the tea baggers and extremists! Hopefully, once this crisis is over, that will happen.

07-17-2011, 03:49 PM	#9
redrockcoulee Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Medicine Hat Posts: 2,306	From outside the United States I would stay that you are viewing what is wrong with the United States as a Republican problem or that others do so. The problem IMHO is that politics in the United States has been a right wing one going more and more to the right each year with little or no counter balance to it. Both Bill Clinton and Obama are central to right leaning politicians and yet are branded as socialists or even communists. Due to this and many of the pubic seeming to buy the far right are empowered and can continuously push for more and more far right ideas and any counter to it is viewed as either socialist or anti-American. In support of what Gene stated, look at the number of Republican moderates who have been singled out for defeat at the primary stage just for seeking compromised in an attempt to have good governance, it seems that those with money and the far right agenda are succeeding in forcing the GOP to be increasing more to the right and more anti poor etc. On a more serious note if the US was to start from scratch I would suggest one less down, ten yards longer field wider, with deeper end zones and add one person to the backfield. And get rid of the fair catch! Most other democratic countries have more than two elected parties and have a variety of parties on both sides of the centre and perhaps one or two on the centre itself. Compare the ideology of the current government to that of say Nikon, Ford, Regan or Johnson and it is probably much more like the Republican ones than of Johnson.

07-17-2011, 10:20 PM	#11
shooz Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Detroit Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,491	Originally posted by gokenin I sit here and read that Everything currently wrong with America can simply be traced to Republicans, tea party members and corporations so I ask if you could wipe it all away and start from scratch what would your America look like? Paradise..............................

07-17-2011, 10:47 PM	#12
reeftool Pentaxian Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Upstate New York Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 9,554	If you look at history, we probably aren't any more screwed up than previous generations.

07-18-2011, 06:34 AM	#13
wildman Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Flyover America Posts: 4,469	Originally posted by reeftool If you look at history, we probably aren't any more screwed up than previous generations. With a population approaching 10 billion, nuclear power, nuclear weapons, a complex interdependent economic system, destruction of entire bio systems, exhaustion of cheap power reserves etc etc - do we any longer have the luxury of being no more screwed up than previous generations?

07-18-2011, 07:07 AM - 1 Like	#14
mikemike Inactive Account Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: New Orleans Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,053	Part of the reason it seems that way is because what is on here is usually driven by an article in a news. The US press, with few exceptions, acts as fluffers for the democratic party's agenda. What you see is that big, unsustainable increases have gone into government budgets for various things for years and now the republicans have to be the "bad guys" and do whats right for the country in the long run.

07-18-2011, 07:20 AM	#15
jeffkrol Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wisconsin USA Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,434	I have no problem with stating when Clinton signed the Republican backed legislation to "free" up the banks it is a de-facto start of the collision course we went on. At least Clinton APOLOGIZED for being short sighted. Something I have yet to see any Republican do for any errors in judgement over the past 30 years, including the Irag war, torture, domestic spying, unfunded military ventures of all kinds, trickle down "voodoo" economics, deregulation of the banks, oil subsidies ect. http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/nov1999/bank-n01.shtml Quote: An agreement between the Clinton administration and congressional Republicans, reached during all-night negotiations which concluded in the early hours of October 22, sets the stage for passage of the most sweeping banking deregulation bill in American history, lifting virtually all restraints on the operation of the giant monopolies which dominate the financial system. Maybe it seems like a little thing to many, but a little humility goes a long way in my book................