[ihasa]

Some fun stats:

Amnesty International list of judicial executions in 2010:
China: Thousands
Iran: 252
North Korea: 60
Yemen: 53
USA: 46
Saudi Arabia: 27
Libya: 18
Syria: 17

So the US is in great company.

Not only do the European Union and Norway not allow capital punishment—they now forbid the sale of lethal injection drugs to America.

On a good day, the "Some extremely heinous crimes warrant the death penalty" option polls in the high 20s in Scandinavia.

Murders in 2009:
Norway: 26
Norway (adjusted to match US population): 1,560
USA: 15,241

The last capital punishments in Scandinavia took place in 1910. 1870 in Norway.

Proves the answer to murder is not more (state sponsored) murder. It's hard for society to condemn violence in a meaningful way when it practices it on its own citizens.

[deadwolfbones]

The other aspect of capital punishment is that nearly 2/3 of parolees will be re-arrested within 3 years.
The recidivism rate among those executed is zero.

Better kill everyone then. No one would ever commit a crime!

On a more serious note, Norway has an extraordinarily high ratio of one-time vs repeat offenders: http://www.forskningsradet.no/en/Newsarticle/High_number_of_Norwegian_onetim.../1253965582124

[eddie1960]

On a more serious note, Norway has an extraordinarily high ratio of one-time vs repeat offenders: News - The Research Council of Norway

That's an interesting article, I think the way Norwegian Society operates helps reduce the recidivism as people are being reintegrated into the workforce very well. This is not the norm and most employers in north America will disqualify candidates with any kind of criminal record whether or not it is relevant to the job
I always find that when I've been able to hire someone down on their luck they frequently have been one of my best employees.

[GeneV]

That's an interesting article, I think the way Norwegian Society operates helps reduce the recidivism as people are being reintegrated into the workforce very well. This is not the norm and most employers in north America will disqualify candidates with any kind of criminal record whether or not it is relevant to the job
I always find that when I've been able to hire someone down on their luck they frequently have been one of my best employees.

It's not just employers, but landlords. In ABQ and some other cities, the police strongly discourage a landlord from renting to a felon who has served his time. If the landlord does, and the person commits another crime, the landlord may be held responsible.

Felons either become small businessmen (no one checks the records of the person who sells you things) or repeat felons.

[eddie1960]

It's not just employers, but landlords. In ABQ and some other cities, the police strongly discourage a landlord from renting to a felon who has served his time. If the landlord does, and the person commits another crime, the landlord may be held responsible.

Felons either become small businessmen (no one checks the records of the person who sells you things) or repeat felons.

The landlord can't refuse you here that easily, but in practice aside from rooming houses they do. there is an intersection downtown that is surrounded by rooming houses in the middle of what otherwise is an expensive neighbourhood for housing. The running joke is the bus from Kingston Penitentiary has it's only stop at that corner

[GeneV]

The landlord can't refuse you here that easily, but in practice aside from rooming houses they do. there is an intersection downtown that is surrounded by rooming houses in the middle of what otherwise is an expensive neighbourhood for housing. The running joke is the bus from Kingston Penitentiary has it's only stop at that corner

Here it is beyond "can" but in the realm of "must" exclude felons--bad policy IMHO for nonviolent parolees.

[Coeurdechene]

The other aspect of capital punishment is that nearly 2/3 of parolees will be re-arrested within 3 years.
The recidivism rate among those executed is zero.

It's horrible how a broken, repressive , ineffective, inefficient and very costly system is in the end it's own justification... U.S. penitenciary system isn't geared towards rehabilitation, in fact what it creates is uprooting, institutionalization, stigmatization.
2/3 thirds of the parolees are recidivists because there are no real alternatives, no social programs for the populations at risk...there is no interest in helping the marginalized to get on their feet. Prison is the social security your country lacks , it costs as much and accommodates those who have been left out of the system.

As for the Oslo guy...he is just the symptom of a deep rooted disease in European societies. Fascism is growing, he just did it in a crude, brutal, overtly manner...but the fact is that penal codes are getting thicker and harder, police and security field personnel is growing and the scarce judicial guarantees are being repealed.

If i had to chose between the likes of this guy or people like Berlusconi, Sarkozy or Baltazar Garzon (to chose a judge and not a politician), i prefer him...at least you know where you stand with him...this may seem extreme, or strange but the harm to civil liberties done by the latter is far worse in the long run than the brutal act this guy committed.

Just another thing this guy isn't "crazy" as i read somewhere before....he planned it carefully, meticulously, in a long period of time, he was not in a schizophrenic episode.
He is an ideologized, militant murderer and his act was deliberate. Saying he's just another crazio is not being aware of the grave situation, and the fact that he is not just a disturbed individual but a part of a very beligerent movement that has been growing in the light of securitarian and authoritarian rhetoric.

As for the "gun control"...unfortunately even with all kinds of control it's the authoritarians who have access to weapons (not long ago an antifascist demo was attacked with police material by right wingers in Rennes- France), becaus it's to some extent to them who the security field appeals the most.

[eddie1960]

Here it is beyond "can" but in the realm of "must" exclude felons--bad policy IMHO for nonviolent parolees.

I couldn't agree more. I think a large degree of recidivism rates are a result of these kinds of policies (aside form housing try and get work as an ex con)
Though Norway has very high rates comparatively of one time criminal behavior their recidivism rate is extremely low and I have to think that has a lot to do with how they treat people and is echoed in the response to this tragedy

Edit just realized courdechene was making the same point while i typed and more eloquently i must say

[Pentaxor]

Some fun stats:

Amnesty International list of judicial executions in 2010:
China: Thousands
Iran: 252
North Korea: 60
Yemen: 53
USA: 46
Saudi Arabia: 27
Libya: 18
Syria: 17

So the US is in great company.

Not only do the European Union and Norway not allow capital punishment—they now forbid the sale of lethal injection drugs to America.

On a good day, the "Some extremely heinous crimes warrant the death penalty" option polls in the high 20s in Scandinavia.

Murders in 2009:
Norway: 26
Norway (adjusted to match US population): 1,560
USA: 15,241

The last capital punishments in Scandinavia took place in 1910. 1870 in Norway.

it would be interesting to know the numbers of those who are wrongfully accused and has been subjected without any sense of real due process.

[Pentaxor]

Just another thing this guy isn't "crazy" as i read somewhere before....he planned it carefully, meticulously, in a long period of time, he was not in a schizophrenic episode.
He is an ideologized, militant murderer and his act was deliberate. Saying he's just another crazio is not being aware of the grave situation, and the fact that he is not just a disturbed individual but a part of a very beligerent movement that has been growing in the light of securitarian and authoritarian rhetoric.

No, he isn't crazy. if there was a fitting word for him, is that something in between of a sociopath and psychopath, whichever suits him better. either way, both can still be dangerous because of the intent of causing harm to others. these are the kind that shouldn't be integrated back to the society.

[Pentaxor]

I couldn't agree more. I think a large degree of recidivism rates are a result of these kinds of policies (aside form housing try and get work as an ex con)
Though Norway has very high rates comparatively of one time criminal behavior their recidivism rate is extremely low and I have to think that has a lot to do with how they treat people and is echoed in the response to this tragedy

Edit just realized courdechene was making the same point while i typed and more eloquently i must say

for sure, erasing the stigma of an ex-con is very difficult indeed. personally, I may have to categorize or evaluate such people by their offenses and how would it impact the society they live and work at. what I'm saying it that it should be based upon the gravity of such crime committed by the individual and potentiality to commit yet again, such crimes. I'm highly skeptic that a drug/gang lord would find it in his heart to find a decent job at 7-11 or as a corporate member. for once, the streets are quite peaceful again eversince they had been put behind bars rather than put out in the open.

[eddie1960]

I'm highly skeptic that a drug/gang lord would find it in his heart to find a decent job at 7-11 or as a corporate member. for once, the streets are quite peaceful again eversince they had been put behind bars rather than put out in the open.

I wouldn't expect them to, but there are a large number of people charged with drug crime who would readily change upon release (particularly in the US for instance where being young and black and caught with say an ounce and a half of pot pretty much guarantees jail time, being upper middle class and white it likely would be a slap on the wrist - our system up here isn't a lot better and the current crowd in Ottawa would probably like to see it more like the us system on punishment)
certainly there will always be hardened criminals doing time who will not be rehabilitated but it think the current state of affairs means a lot of the others who want to change are prevented from it just to survive after release

[shooz]

Geez.......Marsha(sic) Steward got HER job back.

[deadwolfbones]

Martha Stewart*

[redrockcoulee]

I couldn't agree more. I think a large degree of recidivism rates are a result of these kinds of policies (aside form housing try and get work as an ex con)
Though Norway has very high rates comparatively of one time criminal behavior their recidivism rate is extremely low and I have to think that has a lot to do with how they treat people and is echoed in the response to this tragedy

Edit just realized courdechene was making the same point while i typed and more eloquently i must say

Studies of young offenders over a period of about 40 years showed that about 80% of them never re-enter the judical system and about 10% are contant repeat offenders. To me it is the 80% that you work on not to be part of the repeaters. The study showed no significant change over the study period either.