[Nass]

Quite honestly, I think some people are beyond redemption & should be put down.

[eddie1960]

Everyone's got a different take:

BBC News - The competing arguments used to explain the riots

Lefties think it's social exclusion and/or cuts, Righties think it's yobbery, absent fathers and opportunism. Righties are right of course.

Being a die hard leftie, (communist by American standards) I lean more towards the social exclusion and cuts, but this is deeper than that, it's also lack of morals instilled i'm sure by lack of / poor parenting for one, and yep their were yobbos/hooligans. nothing new there every football match i attended when i lived there had lots of them. and that was in the 70's.
trying to come up with a simple cause for a complex issue never works
I think day one had definite grounds in the killing, the following days i think were driven by amoral attitudes. when i see all the 13 year old kids that were involved i just wonder where the hell their parents are in all this. (some i'm sure were at another shop down the road helping themselves as well)
it is a sign that there is a breakdown in how society deals with chronic poverty and parenting. I'm not sure there is a good answer but definitely cuts in social programs are not it
Certainly there is an argument for somewhat stricter laws, but having seen the abuse first hand that giving police an open hand can cause (the G20 here was a travesty) i think any changes need to be very strictly controlled and monitored.
I'm glad to see it seems to have calmed somewhat.
Now of course is when there needs to be a positive reaction taking both increased (somewhat) policing powers alongside investing in the social infrastructure (which imo has gone downhill ever since thatcher. in my eyes these really are thatcher's kids

[eddie1960]

Quite honestly, I think some people are beyond redemption & should be put down.

the number of death sentences that have been carried out and later turned out to be the wrong party is the number one argument against this. i agree there are sociopaths who are well beyond rehabilitation and should be removed from society. I really don't think any of this mob fall under that definition though
and for the ones who do by killing them we bring society down to their level
better to truly administer a life sentence (we have a dangerous offenders act here that can keep them behind bars indefinitely which is primarily used for serial killers and their ilk)

[Coeurdechene]

These people are using their poverty as an excuse to take what they want and people are getting hurt as a result. That's about as lame as it gets

No one is using an excuse for anything..it all started as a rage explosion when the police murdered a black guy...and that explosion occurs because of the attitude of the police towards some people over extended periods of time. Maybe some have used this oportunistically to loot, but this type of reaction would not occur if there wasn't an attitude problem with our paid officials.

Most of them are walking around with gadgets that would cost me a month's rent.

Let's not assume that so fast. It's oversimplifying just as saying they are dumb and criminal kids, all of them, that are doing this out of a basic wickedness (that for some it looks like it would end if we "put them down" just as rabid dogs).It may not be true and bars the way to dialogue and understanding to why this has happened.

Or perhaps they do see the bigger picture

Or they just don't care anymore, are tired of usual "politics" and just want to burn it all...or in some cases take what this ill consumist world has promissed and tought since they were brats.

they aren't doing it very well as the Independent Police Complaints Commission have established where the bullets came from (and that a useable gun was recovered)

They established the bullet lodged in the radio came from a police gun...not from the gun they "found"...let me try to understand a cop shot another one so they opened fire on the "armed" black guy? it doesn't take much of a conspiracy theory to call this a staging...or something they need to fully explain FAST... (they failed to do so in the Menezes case, case that just jumped to my mind the second i heard about all this story).
Police needs to be questioned till it gives answers..if it fails to do so, responsabilities must be assumed..they are the public force and claim legitimate violence so they need to be transparent and recognize their mistakes or else they just look like gun thugs with state endorsement. They degrade themselves to the Pinkerton level.

I think some people are beyond redemption & should be put down.

Be carefull with those htoughts..they lead to dangerous places...people might think of you that way...or maybe as the khmer rouges, that you are a bourgeois pig that needs countryside reeducation...not much difference in thoughts and results.

[stevewig]

London (CNN) --

Before they started appearing in court, most people assumed London's rioters and looters were unemployed youths with no hope and no future.

So there was much surprise when details of the accused began to emerge, and they included some from wealthy backgrounds or with good jobs.

Those passing through London's courtrooms on Tuesday and Wednesday -- some courts sat overnight to cope with the numbers -- have included a teaching assistant, a lifeguard, a postman, a chef, a charity worker, a millionaire's daughter and an 11-year-old boy, newspapers reported.

The tabloid Sun newspaper wrote in its opinion page on Thursday of the "sick" society described by Prime Minister David Cameron: "The sickness starts on welfare-addicted estates where feckless parents let children run wild."

But its front-page headline told a different story about the accused: "Lifeguard, postman, hairdresser, teacher, millionaire's daughter, chef and schoolboy, 11."

The Daily Mail reported: "While the trouble has been largely blamed on feral teenagers, many of those paraded before the courts yesterday led apparently respectable lives."

The upmarket Daily Telegraph devoted its page three to the case of Laura Johnson, the 19-year-old daughter of a company director who pleaded not guilty to stealing £5,000 ($8,000) of electrical goods, under the headline: "Girl who has it all is accused of theft."

The newspaper said she lived in a converted farmhouse in the leafy London suburb of Orpington, Kent, with extensive grounds and a tennis court, had studied at one of the best-performing state schools in the country and now attends the University of Exeter.

Reporter Andrew Gilligan wrote in the Daily Telegraph: "Here in court, as David Cameron condemned the 'sickness' in parts of British society, we saw clearly, for the first time, the face of the riot: stripped of its hoods and masks, dressed in white prison T-shirts and handcuffed to burly security guards.

"It was rather different from the one we had been expecting."

He added of the defendants at Highbury Magistrates Court in north London: "Most were teenagers or in their early twenties, but a surprising number were older.

"Most interestingly of all, they were predominantly white, and many had jobs."

Most newspapers highlighted the case of Alexis Bailey, a 31-year-old learning mentor in an elementary school, who pleaded guilty to burglary with intent to steal at an electrical store in Croydon, south of London.

It was reported that Bailey surrendered to police without stealing anything.

The youngest defendant so far -- an 11-year-old boy -- also gained much attention in newspapers.

The boy, who cannot be named for legal reasons, from Romford, east of London, admitted stealing a £50 ($80) trash can from a department store, the Guardian reported.

The Daily Mail highlighted the cases of Barry Naine, a 42-year-old charity worker charged with burglary; postman Jeffrey Ebanks, 32, and his student nephew Jamal Ebanks, 18, allegedly caught in a car stuffed with electrical goods near a looted Croydon store.

It also reported that Jason Matthews, a 35-year-old new father arrested in a Tesco supermarket, told police he "was not one of the bad ones" and needed diapers for his baby; and that Christopher Heart, a 23-year-old scaffolder and father of two, shouted "sorry for the inconvenience" and broke down in tears after admitting burglary at a sports shop in east London.

Lifeguard Aaron Mulholland, 30, wept as he appeared in court accused of joining thieves in a cell phone shop, the Daily Mail reported.

The Sun reported that an organic chef, Fitzroy Thomas, 43, and his 47-year-old brother Ronald, denied smashing up a branch of the Nando's chicken restaurant chain.

The Metropolitan Police in London said on its website on Thursday that 401 people have been charged so far.

Greater Manchester Police said five men aged between 46 and 23 had already been jailed for their part in the disorder.

West Midlands Police said 26 people, including a 44-year-old man, had appeared before an overnight court session in relation to the disorder in Birmingham.

Shock over 'respectable' lives behind masks of UK rioters - CNN.com

[Talisker]

They established the bullet lodged in the radio came from a police gun...not from the gun they "found"....

Did I say otherwise?

let me try to understand a cop shot another one so they opened fire on the "armed" black guy? it doesn't take much of a conspiracy theory to call this a staging...or something they need to fully explain FAST... .

In this country if the police seriously injure or kill anyone it is automatically referred to the Independent Police Complaints Committee regardless of the circumstances ( Appeal for witnesses one week after the death of Mark Duggan in Tottenham). In these circumstances it is not appropriate for the police to say anything other than a brief statement for fear of predjudicing the independent investigation. I'm not saying its a perfect system, and it can't wind back the clock and make things 'unhappen', but its better than judgement by rumour and the mob.

[Talisker]

Quite honestly, I think some people are beyond redemption & should be put down.

When a state forbids the taking of life in peacetime, yet awards itself that ultimate, irreversible privilege, you wonder what else it thinks it should be able to do...

---

Last edited by Talisker; 08-11-2011 at 02:42 PM.

[magkelly]

I lost sympathy for that crew last night when I saw the story about them beating and robbing a tourist. They supposedly moved him out of the way of the riot, then used the opportunity to hurt him and rob him. In other words they acted like heros to him, then hurt him and took his money. I ask you, what does a beating and robbing a tourist have to do with their current situation?

No, they don't see the bigger picture at all. They're all too busy acting like thugs to care what harm they are causing or what the repercussions of their behavior might be. In a world where every move you might make has the potential to end up on Facebook or You Tube what they are doing is nothing less than criminally stupid.

Getting a job when you have no record is tough enough. Try getting one when you've been in prison. No one wants to hire you or rent to you. You want to talk about being trapped in poverty and being held down? Spend a few years in jail then try to resume your life that you had before. I'm sure that by comparison it will look so much better than the one you will have when you get out...

[jeffkrol]

Quite honestly, I think some people are beyond redemption & should be put down.

Sad.........

Kingsland Road resembles the bustling, ethnically mixed streets of Brooklyn. During the day, it is a home of sorts for unemployed young men with nothing to do; Britain’s youth unemployment rate is currently over 20 percent. During the economic boom a decade ago, though, nearly as many were out of work, and they did not all turn to crime.

To counter the risk that they might, there were storefront drop-in centers for young people in the neighborhood; these places are now shutting down, as are other community services, like health centers for the elderly and libraries. Local police forces have also been shrinking.

All are victims of what people in Britain call “the cuts” — the government’s defunding of civil-society institutions in order to balance the nation’s books. Before the riots, the government had planned to cut 16,200 police officers across the country. In London, austerity means that there will be about 19 percent less to spend next year on government programs, and the burden will fall particularly on the poor [...]

In attempting to carry out reform, the government appears incompetent; it has lost legitimacy. This has prompted some people living on Kingsland Road to become vigilantes. “We have to do things for ourselves,” a 16-year-old in Hackney told The Guardian, convinced that the authorities did not care about, or know how to protect, communities like his.

Riots in Britain, Worldwide a Descendant of Austerity | FDL News Desk

Britain is characterized by extreme inequality, particularly in the urban centers, and low social mobility. You could just as easily be talking about the United States. And while we may not have seen the same type of unrest as in London over the past week, the flash mobs beating up people in places like Philadelphia may stem from the same ennui and even despair. And remember, our austerity is yet to come.

Derek Thompson thinks that London won’t be the last city to burn, and I have to agree. The elite failure over the last decade has spurned a backlash. We’ve seen it in Britain and Spain and Greece; it arguably animated the Arab uprising, motivated by high commodity prices and an underclass of educated youths. The global recession has left pockets of this underclass all over the world. They are angry about their lack of opportunity and they are ready to act.

British Prime Minister David Cameron’s first solution may be to shut down social media to stop the communications among rioters. He could alternatively consider some economic opportunity for an entire generation of frustrated youth.

What’s amazing about this debt limit debate, and the headlong rush to austerity, is that we have empirical evidence of what can result, in this kind of economy, when you massively roll back spending. We even know what happens when you do that amid the threat of a debt downgrade rather than the fundamentals of the financial markets. All you have to do is look to Britain, which has never been the same since their austerity package was unveiled by the Tories.

Britain’s economic recovery remains lackluster as official figures Tuesday showed growth of only 0.2 percent in the second quarter of the year from the previous three month period, in part because of the disruption caused by the wedding of Prince William and Kate Middleton.

The statistics office also said the economy during the period was heavily influenced by the aftermath of the Japanese earthquake and tsunami, record high temperatures in April and the start of ticket sales for the 2012 Olympic Games in London.

The preliminary growth figure, which is subject to revision, was in line with market. But it may put new pressure on the government and the Bank of England to take steps to quicken up the pace of recovery.

The weak second quarter followed six months of essentially no growth, with a drop of 0.5 percent in the fourth quarter of last year followed by a gain of 0.5 percent in the first quarter.

The excuses in this article are ridiculous: did the economy slow down because a lot of people missed the Tube stop at Notting Hill, too? Anyway, didn’t the William and Kate wedding produce a lot of economic activity?

The point is that Britain rolled back demand during a time when the economy was already weak, and they are suffering through the consequences. Instead of looking at this as a problem to be avoided, US policymakers are on the verge of emulating it. And not even in a good way: the British plan was at least somewhat balanced, with tax increases along with the spending cuts. This shows that the idea of a “balanced approach” is still flawed, because either way, you’re reducing demand during a time with a demand shortfall.

In a couple years, if we’re scratching our heads about zero growth, we can simply look to Britain. They are opening a window into our dim future.

UPDATE: Just to clarify, we’re talking about quarterly growth here, not annualized growth. This chart from the Financial Times tells the story. Still, even with that caveat, it’s correct to say that, over the past 9 months, the British economy has increased GDP by a paltry 0.2%. That’s practically a flatline.

http://news.firedoglake.com/2011/07/26/british-economy-after-austerity-at-ze...t-nine-months/

Can't wait for the rise in Tyranny to follow...............

[Pentaxor]

I agree with some of the posters here that this has more about social/moral issues rather than something that has got to do with a valid economic and financial reason. what happened is more of a mob mentality whose sole purpose is for personal gratification and selfish acts. these are thugs/thieves that are more than content on spreading havoc and fed on helpless civilians when opportunity arises. the worse thing is that some people are stupid enough to join them as well.

I agree that the police should be given more authority to impose order if the U.K. doesn't want their society to continue to go on a downward path. theft and robberies had been on a rise and I don't believe it has something to do with people being jobless but the refusal of those thugs to look for one. for some reason committing a crime is much easier than doing hardwork especially if the penalties for committing a crime ain't so bad nor evading arrest is difficult.

as far as minors are concerned, I would say jail the parents just to make them realize how bad their parenting skills are and render certain disciplinary methods that they haven't imposed. I mean, I think a jailed parent won't be that tolerable to their child after suffering such trouble and humiliation.

[Coeurdechene]

but its better than judgement by rumour and the mob.

I agree...to some extent.
What i try to express is that that kind of reaction does not come gratuitously...it occurs when police has a given attitude towards some comunities.
In france it has occured several times...the detonator may be a rumour but it's not to the fact itself that the people react..that's only the straw that broke the camel's back.

They supposedly moved him out of the way of the riot, then used the opportunity to hurt him and rob him. In other words they acted like heros to him, then hurt him and took his money. I ask you, what does a beating and robbing a tourist have to do with their current situation?

You shouldn't judge lightly all this grave incident over that episode...
The rioteers need no sympathy, the situation needs to be understood...and it must be analized far from demagogy, far from overly simplifying statements.
What they did to that guy was shamefull, nauseating, and a good metaphor of how our societies work (of course we don't directly get our hands dirty, we use mercenaries in far away countries...).

Spend a few years in jail then try to resume your life that you had before.

That just makes our societies much more hypocrite...jail is theoretically a way to rehabilitate oneself and close the conflict we opened when we broke a social norm...what it is in reality is something else, a costly repressive and social control mechanism, where most of the people are poor (since the rich ones almost never go to jail), and are in for petty crimes.

[TomK]

agree with some of the posters here that this has more about social/moral issues rather than something that has got to do with a valid economic and financial reason. what happened is more of a mob mentality whose sole purpose is for personal gratification and selfish acts. these are thugs/thieves that are more than content on spreading havoc and fed on helpless civilians when opportunity arises. the worse thing is that some people are stupid enough to join them as well.

And now we are hearing that it is not just disaffected teens and youths but some are employed people in their 40's and 50's.
So far we have seen stories about the looting of mainly electronic stores and appliance stores and sporting goods stores.
Do anyone of you close to the situation know if this is a true representation? That is, are they the only or at least the majority of targets? I am talking about the stealing not about the fires.
My point is that if someone is jobless and disaffected and his spouse is un or under employed and their teenage children are on the streets with nothing to do and no support, what would be the reasoned reaction? "Hey, I know, I'll steal a new flat screen TV!" or would it be "Hey this is an opportunity for me to obtain free of cost (steal) a year's worth of canned food goods!"
So, the questions -
Are there a large number of food stores cleaned out (not set alight)?
Is there evidence that there are a large number of clothing stores that have been cleaned out of things like warm winter coats, gloves, shoes & socks or is it just football jerseys, etc.?
In short, are the things looted the shiney's and the recreational "cool" or are they the necessities of life for those facing "the cuts" ?
I think the answers go a long way toward hinting at the causes of the mob actions.

[GeneV]

It would surprise me if this were started by employed solid citizens, but it would not surprise me to hear that all kinds of people get involved once all heck breaks loose. I think we saw that in riots here in the 60s as well.

[Pentaxor]

And now we are hearing that it is not just disaffected teens and youths but some are employed people in their 40's and 50's.
So far we have seen stories about the looting of mainly electronic stores and appliance stores and sporting goods stores.
Do anyone of you close to the situation know if this is a true representation? That is, are they the only or at least the majority of targets? I am talking about the stealing not about the fires.
My point is that if someone is jobless and disaffected and his spouse is un or under employed and their teenage children are on the streets with nothing to do and no support, what would be the reasoned reaction? "Hey, I know, I'll steal a new flat screen TV!" or would it be "Hey this is an opportunity for me to obtain free of cost (steal) a year's worth of canned food goods!"
So, the questions -
Are there a large number of food stores cleaned out (not set alight)?
Is there evidence that there are a large number of clothing stores that have been cleaned out of things like warm winter coats, gloves, shoes & socks or is it just football jerseys, etc.?
In short, are the things looted the shiney's and the recreational "cool" or are they the necessities of life for those facing "the cuts" ?
I think the answers go a long way toward hinting at the causes of the mob actions.

mah folks live there and I had been in touch with them eversince the riots started. from what they evidently saw, most of them were thieves who are joined in with other thieves. then some of your average employee join in thinking that they can get away with them as well. the logical answer if most of the stolen goods were something to sustain for survival or feed their belly, the answer is no. we can blame the government all we want for the economic crisis, but what help or what does that having to do with burning someone else's home? destroying somebody else's business? businesses that would help others to have a job and sustain a living? that's right. it's pure stupidity and just a feeble attempt to justify committing what is basically a crime of theft, vandalism, and destruction of private property. the point is, the targets have nothing to do with the government. I mean I haven't seen this people even have the courage to set the entire Downing Street ablaze.

as far as the original question is concerned, as to why London has gone mad, it has something to do with social/moral issues nowadays. it is very disturbing that a minor would have the thinking of stealing because he should be entitled to have a shiney as well, because rich people have them. there is no trace of discipline or remorse, but more of a sign of arrogance and feeling of misguided entitlement. for what it's worth, no one ever mentioned the word "hard work".

[Laurentiu Cristofor]

An article I've seen today:

London police say nearly 600 charged over riots

Instead of looking for the causes of this mess, the UK government is back to awarding itself more police powers. I got this image of a man amputating his limbs while insisting that he's perfectly healthy - it's only some of his limbs that were sick. Now that is sick.